V1 for King Air 200

[navajo]

We operate our King Air 200 on gravel runways less than 3000 feet long. According to the SOP, we should use 80 kts for "general V1" and 95 kts for "engine failure V1". With Vr at 95 kts, we need more than 3000 feet for accelerate/stop, so we normally use a lower "engine failure V1", because if the engine fail at 90 kts, we will crash at the end of the runway anyway, so I guess it's better to keep accelerating to 95 kts and deal with the failure in the air. First question: Are we missing something here or do you think it's right?

Some guys use flaps for T/O. Acccording to the charts, it lowers the normal T/O distance by about 600 feet and the acc/go distance by about 1500 feet. In real life, it's less than that since we cannot hold the brakes until max power is set (gravel runways). Also, according to the charts, we still have to use Vr 95 kts, probably because of Vmc = 91 kts.

According to my experience, with the same weight, I reach 95 KTS at the same distance (about 2200 feet) with flaps or not. If I have an engine failure, I wonder if the flaps will not slow me down so I will have a hard time to accelerate from, let say 80 kts, to 95 kts?

So my second question is should I use flaps for T/O or not?

Thanks

[KAG]

If the book says 95 KTS as a general engine failure speed - use it, don't guess. Yes You may (will) go off the end of the runway, but better then trying to get it to accelerate to 95 only to find out it won't and then going off faster then you would have.
I also seem to recall to useing flaps for T/O. Once in the air the 200 will pull your ass out of whatever situation your in one 1 engine assuming you have the right speed. I have personally seen it "heavy", simulated 1 engine at 10,000' and climbing at 500'/min. The plane was origionally designed and tested at 14,400 LBS, needless to say flying on one engine is not a problem.

[Doc]

Pretty much what KAG says. If your engine goes south at 90 KTS, don not think. Thinking burns time. Just react. Reject. You will probably go off the end, if you're on a 3000 foot runway. It will leave a mark, but you should have scrubbed off enough speed to be able to laugh about it later. Try to fly at 90 KTS. You might be able to pull it off. But that's a pretty big MIGHT. The book says 95. Don't got it? Reject! Of course, you'll get second guessed right here on avcanada......but, that's what we're here for, right? Then you come on and say..."Lads, my engine puked at 90 KTS.." You're off the hook. And buying beer! Do what the book says. The book knows more than any of us.
As for "simulating" single engine performance? I'm not a big fan of "simulating" engine failures on PT6's. Get your training dude to take you up, and with some "air" under your ass, feather the puppy. For real. The airplane flies way better when the prop is feathered than when it is "simulated". Really.

[navajo]

The problem is that the "book" is the SOP... In that SOP, I have 3 different checklists for a hot start, they explain the rejected T/O at 2 different places,... I red it again and V1 on our runways is 80kts, my mistake, 95 kts is for longer runways. But I still have the question about if I should use flaps on small runways? Since my V1 is 80 kts, Is it gonna be harder to accelerate to 95 kts if I have an engine failure at 80 kts with flaps?

[Doc]

V1 is the speed at which, you can loose an engine, continue to VR and off you go. What is the book telling you regarding Vmc? Vmcg? I don't think, if you loose that engine at 80 KTS, you're going anywhere but the bushes.
An engine failure at 80KTS is a reject. No way around it.

[navajo]

No Vmcg for the king air, either in the POH or the SOP. But I would like to know if the engines are powerfull enough to make Vmcg higher than 80 kts...
Vmca = 91kts, that's probably why we T/O at 95kts even with flaps.
V1: reject due to engine failure or other causes (I guess it's depend of reference).

[trey kule]

The problem is that the "book" is the SOP... In that SOP, I have 3 different checklists for a hot start, they explain the rejected T/O at 2 different places,... I red it again and V1 on our runways is 80kts, my mistake, 95 kts is for longer runways. But I still have the question about if I should use flaps on small runways? Since my V1 is 80 kts, Is it gonna be harder to accelerate to 95 kts if I have an engine failure at 80 kts with flaps?

I read your original question, and the followups..

Now I have a question for you....Dont you have a chief pilot, or a training captain?
I think this is the kind of question that is better discussed with them than on AvCanada, though some of the advice seems bang on.

[navajo]

I have a lot of respect for my chief pilot, he has a lot of experience on the airplane and I know what he thinks. It's just interresting to see other's opinion. Doc think I will hit the ditch if I don't reject a T/O after 80 kts with an engine failure; we think we should keep going. But, he braught a point: is there a Vmcg on the King Air?

I think avcanada is a good tool to reach pilots from different companies from all over Canada. Maybe some of these companies will always reject a T/O after 80 kts because of a certain Vmcg? I don't know! I will NOT operate my airplane according to some other company's SOP but I think it's good to bring new ideas and to ask questions. Thanks anyway for your comment Trey Kule.

[Apache64_]

Been awhile but there are two things to remember. The AFM overides company sops. In the end when they ask you what went wrong your facts need to be backed up by the AFM. #2 I believe if I remember right the AFM says flaps for gravel runways. Can it take off with out them, yes, will it affect ASD and TOR yup. But the manufacturer has a reason to use flaps on take off. I also think if you look hard enough in the AFM there is a Vmcg pulbished, I have no memory on where to look or what it is, but I am pretty sure it is there.

Cheers

Apache