Petition for Family Access to the Flight Deck

[TTJJ]

Just a thought about Nav Can employees getting fam flights on the flight deck.

Why not ride the jump seat in the simulator, todays modern sim's are just like the real thing and there is no risk of the sim being hi-jacked without major effort in removing the thing from its mounts in the floor.

Just a thought from someone who is no longer really in touch with reality.

Believe it or not, FlightSafety Teterboro had a program a couple years ago whereby some local Down's Syndrome, severely mentally handicapped and wheelchair bound kids were invited to fly their simulators for 1 day a year and have a BBQ. The instructors and staff all volunteered their time and have told me that there was not a dry eye in the house when they were done.
It was the highlight of the kid’s day and it darn well might have been the highlight of the kid’s maybe too short life.

The TSA canned the project because the kids and their caregivers were required to have a background check.

That, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the epitome of sad.

Kudos to Flight Safety DFW who still does this I am told.
I guess the further away you get from seat of power, the easier life is…

[scrambled_legs]

Sometimes it is a sad, sad world we live in... were they afraid that they'd crash the simulator???

[Guido]

Sometimes it is a sad, sad world we live in... were they afraid that they'd crash the simulator???

No, no. They could be junior terrorists in training and might learn to fly a simulator into a building. Duh.

I am so f**king tired of security theater BS.

[Pratt]

Side note to the ATC guys commenting on the jumpseat. I believe you actually do have clearance to request the jumpseat as a ride-along request with WestJet and Air Canada. I have had a couple of ATC guys in the last couple of years ride up front to observe. They had prior permission from our ops and were listed on our manifest as authorized to ride jump. I would check it out further if you are interested in doing so. It was a great experience to have AT controllers with us. We learned lots and so did they. Hope to see you up front one of these days.

Spinner, I would love to know how these individuals managed to bypass the following CARs reg in order to access the cockpit. I just recently requested access to the flight deck on a fam flight and was denied. If you can find an exemption like CID did, please forward it to me or post it.

(3) No person shall be admitted to the flight deck of an aeroplane other than

(d) in accordance with the procedures specified in the company operations manual,




If you can ask your company how these individuals were allowed access and even put on the manifest, it'd be of great interest. It's good to hear that the few people that have slipped through the cracks, have been helpful.

I think you will find the approval in the part that I put in bold in the above quote, and below is a quote from our COM:

The Captain must positively confirm the identification of the observer seat occupant by means of photographic identification. Pilots and Flight Attendants will identify themselves with a Transport Canada Restricted Area Pass and XXXXXX travel card. Holders of a Letter of Authorization from the Vice President, Flight Operations or his delegate will present the Captain with a copy of the letter, and two pieces of photographic identification

Again the bold part in what I quoted from the COM is your route to go. A letter of authorizaton from the VP flight ops, not sure how you go about doing that but somebody in your shop should know. It would be great to see some of you folks back riding with us again.

[scrambled_legs]

Thanks Pratt but (d) also has an (i) and (ii) which also must be satisfied.

(d) in accordance with the procedures specified in the company operations manual,
(i) an employee of the air operator who is not a crew member performing their duties, and
(ii) a pilot, flight engineer or flight attendant employed by a wholly owned subsidiary or a code share partner of the air operator; and

Unfortunately we don't meet either of those criteria as we're not an employee (i) and we're not a pilot, flight engineer or flight attendant (ii). I'll get someone in the union to e-mail transport and ask if we can be granted access now and how. Hope to see you on deck again soon, hopefully alongside your family.

[mcconnell14]

Side note to the ATC guys commenting on the jumpseat. I believe you actually do have clearance to request the jumpseat as a ride-along request with WestJet and Air Canada. I have had a couple of ATC guys in the last couple of years ride up front to observe. They had prior permission from our ops and were listed on our manifest as authorized to ride jump. I would check it out further if you are interested in doing so. It was a great experience to have AT controllers with us. We learned lots and so did they. Hope to see you up front one of these days. I also hope to see my kids up front with me one day too......only in the jumpseat - not flying the plane Rudy!

i think this should happen more often...I've watched mayday and other accident investigation shows many times and i still can't believe how many of these ATC guys know nothin about the aircraft there handling, or are terrible at understanding what the pilots may be going through during an emergency. etc....not even going to commment on the petition...to many things to be commented about

[Pratt]

Thanks Pratt but (d) also has an (i) and (ii) which also must be satisfied.

(d) in accordance with the procedures specified in the company operations manual,
(i) an employee of the air operator who is not a crew member performing their duties, and
(ii) a pilot, flight engineer or flight attendant employed by a wholly owned subsidiary or a code share partner of the air operator; and

Unfortunately we don't meet either of those criteria as we're not an employee (i) and we're not a pilot, flight engineer or flight attendant (ii). I'll get someone in the union to e-mail transport and ask if we can be granted access now and how. Hope to see you on deck again soon, hopefully alongside your family.

scrambled legs,

I interpret those above items to be one or the other, not all of them. An employee would not require a letter from the DFO, doesn't matter what the person does for the company, accountant or janitor. I interpret the letter to be authorization for a person from outside the company who does not fall under those persons that are specifically listed.

Hopefully I am right and there is some hope.

Check your PMs.

[CD]

I interpret those above items to be one or the other, not all of them.

Unfortunately, someone from outside the company other than those persons listed in the existing regulation is not permitted access to the flight deck (in a subpart 705 operation). The only way around that currently is via an exemption (as noted above for commuting flight crew who are not employees of the company) or by regulatory change (through the CARAC process).

[jeff_w_yeg]

Just reading over all these posts on this topic and I got thinking about all the times I got to head up front to the flight deck as a kid (back in those days it was still okay to call it a "cockpit"...ha ha!) and there were 2 visits that really stuck with me:

- I remember being about 7 or 8 years old on a night-time flight from Winnipeg to Toronto with my grandparents and heading up front. The captain asked the question, "wanna see a light show?" and I said "sure". He hit some sort of Master Alarm test switch (I'm assuming the Fire/Smoke detection test?) and I just about crapped my pants! Alarm bells, buzzers and everything on the instrument panel lit up...of course, so did my face!

- The other one that I'll never forget as long as I live: I was about 15 or 16 years old and was flying Air Canada from Winnipeg to Toronto to visit my grandparents (this time all on my own...and at that age, I was too old to be an "UM" - remember those big red & white badges? Ha ha!) on a DC-9. I took another trip up front and told the pilot I was interested in airplanes & all things aviation and that I was volunteering at the Aviation Museum in Winnipeg. He said to me, "You should sit up here during the landing". I thought he was joking and just continued asking questions.

So, as I'm getting ready to leave the cockpit he says to me, "I'll get the flight attendant to come get you when we start descending". I was totally blown away! True to his word, as we begin the descent the FA comes and gets me from my seat and takes me up front. They put me into the jumpseat, gave me a set of headphones so I could hear ATC and that was that...I was up there from the top of descent right down to the gate. It was un-freaking-believable. My grandparents needed a freakin' crowbar to get the smile off my face.

(That same summer I also got a tour at CFB Trenton with a former Scout leader of mine who was a Herc pilot and got to spend about an hour in the C130 simulator...best summer EVER!).

Would I love the opportunity to visit the flight deck while in flight? Sure...but honestly, I think the guys up front are busy enough that they don't need to be entertaining guests - whether they're family or not. I mean, they can always "entertain" at the end of the flight...what's the difference? I can't speak for Air Canada, but I know the WestJet folks were kind enough to let this "big kid" come up front for a chat after a recent flight:

[Four1oh]

Side note to the ATC guys commenting on the jumpseat. I believe you actually do have clearance to request the jumpseat as a ride-along request with WestJet and Air Canada. I have had a couple of ATC guys in the last couple of years ride up front to observe. They had prior permission from our ops and were listed on our manifest as authorized to ride jump. I would check it out further if you are interested in doing so. It was a great experience to have AT controllers with us. We learned lots and so did they. Hope to see you up front one of these days. I also hope to see my kids up front with me one day too......only in the jumpseat - not flying the plane Rudy!

I too have had a couple of ATC'ers on the flight deck. They got to witness first hand how busy we get on a missed approach...

[wan2fly99]

I rememher the days I use to be allowed in the cockpit. I wouyld meet the captain and ask him Discuss my interest in aviation, introduce him to my family flying with me. 90% of the time he was happy to have me there

I would just sit there and just observe and marvel.
They woyuuld ask me questions. I did not want to be a bother since they already gave me a great opportunity few have.

After Sept-11 that all change Now I hate flying and avoid it at all cost

From those visits I got my flying licenses and still dream to be a pilot for some small company some day

[Johnny767]

Security ( the optics of, ) is making a group of people, very wealthy. It has matured into big business.

I have signed the petition, I don't believe for one second it will do anything.

The only way to get through to these people, is shut the country down for a day!

As the saying goes; "organizing Pilots, is like herding cats." Until we get our act together, we are hooped.

I am forced to take joe shmoe MOT inspector, not qualified on type, not even an Air Carrier Inspector. But can't take a fellow employee that I have known for 25+ years, my wife or kids.

Don't get me started on our good friends from the MOT and CUPE using the "1 in 40 rule" to remove access to the Airbus 319 jumpseat.

Except for the MOT Inspector.


The monkeys run the zoo!

[CD]

FAA works with authorities for controllers to regain cockpit access

Staff at FAA are working to reinstate a programme allowing access to cockpits by air traffic controllers for learning purposes.

The programme was discontinued after the September 2001 terrorists attacks due to security concerns, says agency COO of the air traffic organization Hank Krakowski in a recent update.

Krakowski explains tightening access after the attacks also restricted fellow pilots from riding in the cockpit, but that issue has been solved through system to identify pilot legitimacy.

FAA is designing a similar scheme for controllers says Krakowski, but it has become more complicated than originally anticipated.

"We were hoping to have it done before Bobby [former acting administrator Robert Sturgell] left," he notes. "But we have to work with DHS and TSA to make sure we're doing it right."

Source: Air Transport Intelligence news

[spinner2]

[*]Security ( the optics of, ) is making a group of people, very wealthy. It has matured into big business.

I have signed the petition, I don't believe for one second it will do anything.

The only way to get through to these people, is shut the country down for a day!

As the saying goes; "organizing Pilots, is like herding cats." Until we get our act together, we are hooped.

I am forced to take joe shmoe MOT inspector, not qualified on type, not even an Air Carrier Inspector. But can't take a fellow employee that I have known for 25+ years, my wife or kids.

Don't get me started on our good friends from the MOT and CUPE using the "1 in 40 rule" to remove access to the Airbus 319 jumpseat.

Except for the MOT Inspector.


The monkeys run the zoo![*]

Good post however I do think the petition may further our cause. Please understand that we are not collecting names and then intend to simply wave it in the air and expect everything to change. You correct in that it is difficult to organise pilots acroos Canada on individual issues. The petition is the best way to create a voice for all that agree with the initiative. The petition will be attached to supporting documents and forwarded to all the parties involved. The petitiion is very much alive and gathering strength. There is almost 600 signatures on it now and we hope to gain several thousand before we use it. I am also considering a dedicated website to further discuss the issue and look for ideas and solutions. We still need your signatures. Please sign the petition if you agree and, just as important, forward the link to as many people that you can. Thanks to everyone who has signed! http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/flightdeckaccess/

[mattedfred]

I am forced to take joe shmoe MOT inspector, not qualified on type, not even an Air Carrier Inspector. But can't take a fellow employee that I have known for 25+ years

i know that the TC inspector isn't required to be type rated on your type but i thought that they did have to be conducting duties of their occupation and not just hitching a ride somewhere? some companies do allow fellow employees in the FD JS like ACJ and AC.