True and correct

[Cat Driver]

A notarized document would have little to no effect against a hiring panel or regulator who was intent on either discrediting or rejecting your submitted information.

Therefore the whole subject of the value of producing any notarized or certified record of time flown is of no real value.

[Rockie]

When you use a Notary Public to swear an affidavit you are producing a document that is a legal document that states you are telling the truth.

One small correction. Notarization does not state anything towards the veracity of a document or its contents. A notary, when he/she notarizes a statement, is simply affirming that he/she witnessed YOU sign the paper (or that the document is a true likeness of its original). As for a claim of veracity, there is none from a notary.

A notarized document would have little to no effect against a hiring panel or regulator who was intent on either discrediting or rejecting your submitted information.

I used a notarized logbook to get my ATPL from Transport Canada. And they and I weren't getting along all that well at the time.

[ScudRunner]

I was just thinking about all the jobs I have had and not one CP ever looked at my logbook, I was even asked to bring the logbook to my big jet interview and it just sat there on the table as we bull shitted about flying Islanders and rolling drums of fuel around. My last interview I brought it along just in case and same thing, not even a glancing interest to open it up.

Its funny friends of mine who went to jazz ran around getting a notary to swear on a stack of bibles or whatever that their logbook was legit. I guess the lawyers are taking over.


A side topic to this is Checking References, I have called and gave a heads up that XYZ airline might be calling about a reference and when I get the job I call my references back to say thanks, However they only check half the time. I suppose as a CP I would figure that they are all going to say good things if there on the resume. The Flip side of that is I have been put down as a reference and the person never asked nor would I recommend them wich has lead to some interesting conversations with CP's " Uh who used me as a reference,, you joking right who is this really" .................................

[Johnny]

When you use a Notary Public to swear an affidavit you are producing a document that is a legal document that states you are telling the truth.

One small correction. Notarization does not state anything towards the veracity of a document or its contents. A notary, when he/she notarizes a statement, is simply affirming that he/she witnessed YOU sign the paper (or that the document is a true likeness of its original). As for a claim of veracity, there is none from a notary.

A notarized document would have little to no effect against a hiring panel or regulator who was intent on either discrediting or rejecting your submitted information.

I used a notarized logbook to get my ATPL from Transport Canada. And they and I weren't getting along all that well at the time.

I'm sure it is an effective piece to add to any puzzle. I just felt compelled to clear the air so that someone in this situation wouldn't think that all they would have to do is get a notarized letter...

If it was me doing the review/hiring, and someone could not get his/her times signed by a former CP for a good reason (death, distance, mutual hatred, turned into an alien, etc) then the notarized letter would add some credibility.

That said, a working knowledge of what notarization represents will make anyone realize that all the candidate has to do is sign his/her logbook (or the statement) in the presence of the notary, after the notary has verified identification, and it's done. It gives a slightly higher level of legal recourse in the event of fraud as now the alleged perpetrator will have perjured a sealed document, but that's another story for a time way past the interview.

For anyone in a bind, I'm sure notarization is worth the (relatively small) expense. I would suggest explaining the situation to the regulator and/or the hiring panel and ask if the notarized document would be sufficient for their needs.

[foxmoth]

"Arguing with a pilot is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After a while you realize the pig likes it."

So true. Topics here like the Keystone Kops, everyone falling over each other with heated views,
it is very simple. to prove your expereince and the fact you were with a company, get the damned thing signed.
mybe they wont give you a letter but going back years later when the CP etc have all left means you missed the boat.

just because you not asked about logbook so far does not mean you wont get rejected next time you interview.
might as well blame everybody else, eh?

[Cat Driver]

How long do you people think it would take to find out if you did in fact fly for company xx and what your performance really was like, if an employer really wanted to check?

[Tim]

How long do you people think it would take to find out if you did in fact fly for company xx and what your performance really was like, if an employer really wanted to check?

I was thinking the same thing. If all they do is look at the name on the time correct stamp and call the guy, why bother with the stamp...just give them the guys name and number. You aren't asking for a reference, you're just asking your old company to acknowledge to your new company that you flew their planes (like . said, give them a heads up). If they lie, sue them. It's not like your logbook is the only piece of paper indicating you were a crew member on a particular flight.

I had a buddy that worked for a *company* in Thunder Bay. He got on with Jazz shortly after upgrading to capt with this company (paid his dues, worked his way up). The CP refused to sign his logbook. Basically the CP was pissed at him for leaving so soon after his upgrade (didn't matter that he'd been there for a few years) and was going to hold that over my friends head.

[Donald]

I had a buddy that worked for a *company* in Thunder Bay. He got on with Jazz shortly after upgrading to capt with this company (paid his dues, worked his way up). The CP refused to sign his logbook. Basically the CP was pissed at him for leaving so soon after his upgrade (didn't matter that he'd been there for a few years) and was going to hold that over my friends head.

In a situation like that, one possible solution is to have one or more of your former co-workers (captains/first officers/dispatchers?) sign something to attest that you flew said companies aircraft. It could also serve to give you a bonus reference letter. I'm sure the interviewers at Jazz etc, would be somewhat familiar with this happening. In the last few years of mega-hiring, there were probably a few "pissed off CP's".

[Strega]

How long do you people think it would take to find out if you did in fact fly for company xx and what your performance really was like, if an employer really wanted to check?

I was thinking the same thing. If all they do is look at the name on the time correct stamp and call the guy, why bother with the stamp...just give them the guys name and number. You aren't asking for a reference, you're just asking your old company to acknowledge to your new company that you flew their planes (like . said, give them a heads up). If they lie, sue them. It's not like your logbook is the only piece of paper indicating you were a crew member on a particular flight.

I had a buddy that worked for a *company* in Thunder Bay. He got on with Jazz shortly after upgrading to capt with this company (paid his dues, worked his way up). The CP refused to sign his logbook. Basically the CP was pissed at him for leaving so soon after his upgrade (didn't matter that he'd been there for a few years) and was going to hold that over my friends head.

BM

[Tim]

I had a buddy that worked for a *company* in Thunder Bay. He got on with Jazz shortly after upgrading to capt with this company (paid his dues, worked his way up). The CP refused to sign his logbook. Basically the CP was pissed at him for leaving so soon after his upgrade (didn't matter that he'd been there for a few years) and was going to hold that over my friends head.

In a situation like that, one possible solution is to have one or more of your former co-workers (captains/first officers/dispatchers?) sign something to attest that you flew said companies aircraft. It could also serve to give you a bonus reference letter. I'm sure the interviewers at Jazz etc, would be somewhat familiar with this happening. In the last few years of mega-hiring, there were probably a few "pissed off CP's".

good point with the friend in the company. but at the same time, if jazz, etc, know that not all people will get stamps in their logbooks for reasons OTHER than whats in the logbook isn't actually true, why is it something they are looking for?

strega, i dont know what bm means

[Strega]

The company in tbay?

[foxmoth]

forgot to say in my last post that people saying "its not a rule, not required, so I am not doing it" is a reverse form of Cat Drivers 'dumbing down of aviation'. Just becasue it is not a rule, surely you can use common sense?
the Cp who would not certify logbook is a jerk, disgrace to industy. narrow minded a=hole.

[Cat Driver]

forgot to say in my last post that people saying "its not a rule, not required, so I am not doing it" is a reverse form of Cat Drivers 'dumbing down of aviation'. Just becasue it is not a rule, surely you can use common sense

Cat Drivers dumbing down of aviation?

I have nothing to do with the dumbing down of aviation ,in fact I would like to see it reversed.

[yfly]

the Cp who would not certify logbook is a jerk, disgrace to industy. narrow minded a=hole.

Or he thinks the individual is less than honest and doesn't want to put his name to the artistic penmanship of the candidate. There are always two sides to the story, three if you include the truth.

[Tim]

The company in tbay?

oh gotcha. i thought badmouthing companies got threads pulled so i left it out. but no not them.

the Cp who would not certify logbook is a jerk, disgrace to industy. narrow minded a=hole.

Or he thinks the individual is less than honest and doesn't want to put his name to the artistic penmanship of the candidate. There are always two sides to the story, three if you include the truth.

were not talking about versions of the truth here, we're talking about if you were on the plane as a crew member or you werent. whether he likes your or not shouldnt be an issue.

[Tim]

just to clarify my last post. yfly im with you if they faked their log book. in fact i think those people should have thier licenses revoked. but if the entries are indeed true and correct they should be certified as so regardless of any other circumstance.

[Cat Driver]

just to clarify my last post. yfly im with you if they faked their log book. in fact i think those people should have thier licenses revoked.

Is a pilots personal log book a legal document?

[Strega]

sure,, if you have it notarized...

[Cat Driver]

In that a pilots personal log book is not a legal document I was only wondering on what grounds could his / her license be revoked?

Now I'll grant that if TC is looking for a make work project with lots of potential for actually finding something to do they would have lots of licenses to revoke if they started taking a real close look at pilots personal log books.

[Donald]

I see what Cat is getting at: unless the person with the fake logbook is trying to use it to attain a license, then TC is probably not interested.

However, mis-representing yourself with a fake logbook in an interview, would be grounds for dismissal, right?

The interesting scenario....a company gets insurance, sometimes based on pilots having met certain hour requirements. If there was an incident/accident, and the insurance company figured out the pilot had fudged their numbers...

[Cat Driver]

However, mis-representing yourself with a fake logbook in an interview, would be grounds for dismissal, right?

Yes, and rightly so.

The interesting scenario....a company gets insurance, sometimes based on pilots having met certain hour requirements. If there was an incident/accident, and the insurance company figured out the pilot had fudged their numbers...

The insurance company would have grounds to go after the pilot for making a false claim, as the insurance was issued based on the pilot meeting the minimum hours to qualify for coverage.

[Rockie]

just to clarify my last post. yfly im with you if they faked their log book. in fact i think those people should have thier licenses revoked.

Is a pilots personal log book a legal document?

I'm sure the term "legal" could mean different things to different people Cat. But keeping a logbook is required under the Air Regulations which derive their authority from the Aeronautics Act, which is an act of Parliament. Sounds pretty legal to me, but only a true lawyer knows for sure.

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;

(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and

(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

(3) No person shall make an entry in a personal log unless the person

(a) is the holder of the log; or

(b) has been authorized to make the entry by the holder of the log.

[Tim]

Cat seeing as how the CARs address what must be logged, I would have to say yes it is a legal document. If someone lies about their experience they are potentially putting the rest of the crew and passengers in jeopardy.

If some guy that flies a cub around off his grass strip, let him do what he wants. But as soon as he takes that faked logbook and tries to use it for personal gain, then I have a problem with it.

Saying their license should be revoked is more a superlative on my part, but I wouldn't shed any tears if it happened, in fact it would put a smile on my face.

[foxmoth]

sorry Cat did not mean you have dumbed down aviation.
Just refering to your astute and intelligent observation
and I see the point about Cp no signing a false logbook still, CP shud recognize that and act accordingly.log falsifiers are often up to no good elsewhere and we all better off without them.

[Cat Driver]

No where have I said one should not comply with the law.

I do however suggest that you understand what the law stipulates you must do.

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(b) recency.

I abide by the law by ensuring I can produce the documentation required by law if it is demanded by the authorities.

In my case it would be :

CAR 401.08 (1) b.

A personal pilot log book is not an item that is on the list of documents you must carry when flying.

TC can however demand you comply with the CAR's, in this case I could be asked to show proof of what is required by law, which would be proof of recency.......I'm to old a cat to be fucked by kittens so when I produced the required proof of recency I would make sure it was recorded in compliance the the CAR requirement....and there would be a record in one or more airplane journey logs that were identical to the record I produced.

The last time I looked there was no requirement for me to keep a personal log of every flight I do.

I would however be willing to discuss where and what I flew in the past if someone wanted to know or compare experiences we have had. ( Especially with a TCCA employee. )