Passenger Perception

[200hr Wonder]

How important is passenger perception to your business as pilot? The Dash-8 has had a tough couple of years now, landing gear collapses, and now this. Is this going to cost other Dash-8 operators passengers. Will someone not choose Jazz because it is operated on Dash 8 and go with WJ simply because of the type operated?

Remember that passengers of fickle beasts and we need to do all that we can to keep them calm and comfortable. So how much is prescription effect this? Just throwing it out there after a few frosty lagers.

[freakonature]

Let me give it to from a passenger regurgitation. Dash 8 = old plane, rattle's and shakes, wake's me up when the ice shed's the prop's and smack's the plane, stinky seat's, deplane's me in a back alley at an airport. Jet= smooooth ride, fast, leather seat's, entertainment, no feeling of riding on the grey dog. And my prescription keep's me calm when I fly.

[ahramin]

Let me give it to from a passenger regurgitation. Dash 8 = old plane, rattle's and shakes, wake's me up when the ice shed's the prop's and smack's the plane, stinky seat's, deplane's me in a back alley at an airport. Jet= smooooth ride, fast, leather seat's, entertainment, no feeling of riding on the grey dog. And my prescription keep's me calm when I fly.

Wow, freak is an even bigger fan of apostrophes than most of our members

[freakonature]

It's in protest!!!

[canadafreak]

I have had my doubt's about the Dash-8 for a while now. Taking it's many mishaps into account over the last couple of years. And it always makes me wonder when I read that an airlines has ordered more Dash-8's. Take SAS, they had multiple problems and still order more of them. Don't they see what this is doing to the public? Why take the risk? What really beats me is the fact that the problems remain. The gear problem does not seem to be fixed and I for one, would not book a flight with an AL that's operates them. I rather fly on, and feel safer in, a DC-3 then in a Dash. But maybe there are not many other (good) options to choose from when expanding the fleet in that capacity range.

I think this is a good question. I am a big fan of Canadian produce and I'd like to see Bombardier get these issue's fixed before it is really to late. She might be old, true, but old doesn't have to make them bad.

[bmc]

30 operators of the Q400. SAS has three planes with gear problems. Other operatos step forward with ringing endorsement when SAS calls them problem airplanes. Furthermore, if Bombardier were at fault, why buy more of their products? To have more accidents?

SAS is the problem, not the Q400.

There has always been a perception with passengers that prop planes are old, small and questionable. I flew from Vienna to Geneva last year on Austrian. As we were boarding, the guy in front was complaining to his wife abou this old airplane we were about to fly on.

[joco]

We fly every year from Vienna to TSR and most flights are on Austrian or Tyrolean Dash 8. All are well maintained and quite nice. Where do people see stinky old rattling Dash 8s? Jazz...?
joco

[Tim]

someone once told me there has never been a fatal dash-8 crash due to mechanical failure...any truth to that (i doubt it, but itd be cool)?

i have no problem getting on a dash, the only part that sucks is the slower speed and the first 30 seconds when the props are out of sync

if this plane was as shitty as you suggest canadafreak, why would it be in almost every country in the world with commecial aviation plus militaries and defence forces?

as bmc pointed out it was only SAS that had gear issues, not systemic to the worldwide fleet.

[skyhigh]

Put an old 737-200 or an old CRJ 100 beside a brand new Dash 8 Q400 and ask passengers to choose which would rather fly on. 99% would choose the old jets. The Q400 is a fantastic plane for pilots and operators but all passengers see are the props and equate them with ancient technology. Which really is too bad.

[Tim]

luckily most airlines done give passengers options

[Pratt X 3]

Remember that passengers of fickle beasts and we need to do all that we can to keep them calm and comfortable.

Keeping in mind that 78% of all statistics are made up, 98.7% of passengers today only care about paying as little as possible to fly across the country. They want to be able to pay less for an airline ticket that a bus ticket. They might bitch and whine about the "stupid prop plane" when they board but in their mind they are thinking "At least I saved $3 by flying with these guys instead of those guys!"

[Carrier]

Quote: "Put an old 737-200 or an old CRJ 100 beside a brand new Dash 8 Q400 and ask passengers to choose which would rather fly on. 99% would choose the old jets."

As Pratt pointed out that changes when they look at the lower ticket price for the Dash 8 trip. This will be even more prominent when the world economy recovers and the oil price heads significantly upwards again.
Furthermore, on trips up to two hours or so there is not going to be much time difference between a Dash 8 and a CRJ.

[Four1oh]

In answer to the original question, look what happened to the ATR-42 in the US! I think the only ones flying down there now are cargo haulers.

[Driving Rain]

Passenger perception is important but what sells airplanes is the cost of operating them. The bottom line. CEO's buy aircraft not passengers.

Last Sunday afternoon I was sitting in YQC terminal waiting for my flight. It had snowed heavily the night before and I was watching the sno-clearing operations when Porter taxied up to the gate and I thought to myself what a beautiful aircraft. It's much nicer looking with it's longer slender fuselage than it's early brethren. Right after an RJ taxied in and it looked ugly by comparison to me. Could be the paint jobs but what do I know?



The Q400 has a cruising speed close to that of most regional jets, and its mature engines and systems require less frequent maintenance, reducing its disadvantage. The aircraft breaks even with about 1/3rd of its seats filled (depending on seat pitch), making it particularly attractive on routes with varying passenger numbers where many seats will be empty on some flights. Most regional jets of the same size require 45 to 50 % of bums on seats.

Most short-haul routes are less than 350 miles, so the time spent on taxiing, takeoff and landing virtually eliminates a competing jet's speed advantage. As the Q400's 414+ mph cruise speed approaches jet speeds, short-haul airlines can usually replace a regional jet with a Q400 without changing their gate-to-gate schedules.

BTW the Porter flight to YTZ left just ahead of my RJ flight to YYZ. As we started approach to RWY 23 I looked over in the direction of the Island and could see Porter had just touched down. We landed and started the long taxi to terminal 1. I couldn't help but be a little jealous that the Q400 passengers would be in their cars or on city transit home before my flight got to the gate.

[xsbank]

It looks like this Dash fell out of the sky covered in ice. We can get into a debate over boots vs. bleed air but the fact is that super-cooled large-droplet icing can kill any airplane. The Dash 400 has 'loads' of power to get out of it but judging by the commuter airline thing, their culture probably had 'diversion' way down the list of alternatives.

I rode from North Bay to Toronna once (don't ask) on a Jazz Dash 8 and it was exactly as freakonature describes. The onboard service was good, actually, despite the antique aircraft, but we ended up in some backwater part of the terminal and had to take a bus, which of course was late, extending the journey long enough and adding enough confusion and luggage hassles that I would have been better on the Greyhound to begin with.

The Dash 8 is a good airplane. Jazz should buy some new ones and send its fleet to Africa.

The media delights in trashing Bombardier - don't know why, but there you are.

[Driving Rain]

We can get into a debate over boots vs. bleed air

Good points XS.
In this day and age why would they produce a new airframe with an ancient system like boots insead of anti-ice (beed air)? If as you say the Q-400 has lots of power.

[Pratt X 3]

In answer to the original question, look what happened to the ATR-42 in the US! I think the only ones flying down there now are cargo haulers.

True, the ATR-42 is only used in the US by cargo operators (flying for FedEx), however, Executive Airlines, an American Eagle carrier flying for American Airlines still uses ATR-72's. Based in Puerto Rico, they mostly fly in the Southern States and the Caribbean so they avoid icing most of the year. (The Roselawn Accident was an ATR-72)

[airbournesailor]

I know alot of dash 8 and x dash 8 drivers. The common thing I get from all of them is the reliability and forgivingness of the dash, like all DeHavilland ac! I constantly get comments from non pilot friends though about how they are scared and hate "those small propeller planes"! Most people are even more scared of the B1900. Passengers are like most people, "Size does matter"!

[silentivan]

The Dash 8's that Jazz operates are ancient. I don't know of many Q400 operators in Western Canada, but they seem few and far between. Most Curious....

As for passenger perception, I really wonder what goes through their head when they see me pop open the fuel panel and dodge the steady downpour of skydrol and glycol. Mostly the latter, but in all honesty, if was a fickle and paranoid pax, I would start saying my Hail Mary's and vow never to fly on a Dash 8 again if I saw that much fluid leaking out. Just my $0.02.

[Carrier]

In the mid-1980s many Yellowknife residents preferred NWT Air's Electras over PWA's 737s for flights between Yellowknife and Edmonton. It took about 10 minutes longer by Electra to Edmonton International but there was more seat room and better meals and the Electra then went on to Edmonton Municipal airport for no additional fare.
Most pax will choose the best overall package.

[canadafreak]

Tim, I never used the frase "shitty airplane". The question read "Passenger perception" and I gave exactly that. I doubt very much that the Dash-8 is a bad aircraft. Regarding the incidents, and you are correct on this, most of them are coming from the SAS corner. So you might be right about it being their problem and not the aircraft. Still the fact remains, pax will look at this in a different way and might give the aircraft a bad name.

And they sell them like hot cakes I believe, but still bear in mind that (in my opinion anyway) there is not very much to choose from on the market in this capacity range and turpoprop aircraft. ATR is, after the demise of Fokker, (Yes I'm Dutch and I love the Fokker 50) the most logical option. But they have some troubles on their track record as I recall. Icing being the major one I think.

So again, I don't say it is a bad or shitty aircraft, just my opinion as a potential passenger.

I'm very curious as to the final outcome of the investigation and my thoughts are with the people that have lost there loved onces.