Ground turboprop aircraft, expert says

[monkeyspankmasterflex]

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/588565

Ground turboprop aircraft, expert says

MIKE THEILER/REUTERS FILE PHOTO
Jim Hall, former chair of U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, wants aircraft grounded.


Interview
An interview with Mary Fetchet, friend of Beverly Eckert, a Sept. 11 widow who died in the Buffalo plane crash. Together they founded Voices of 9/11.

The former head of the National Transportation Safety Board – the U.S. agency that's investigating last Thursday's crash of a Canadian-built commuter plane near Buffalo, N.Y. – says all similar twin-engine turboprops should be grounded, at least until the investigation is complete.

"I think the prudent thing to do ... is ground the aircraft," until the board investigation is finished, said Jim Hall, chair of the federal agency from 1994 through 2001.

Such investigations typically take from 18 months to two years, and Hall's recommendation would cause havoc, since thousands of passenger turboprops are in service worldwide.

Hall said aircraft with turboprop engines fly at slower speeds than jets, making it easier for ice to accumulate. He was also critical of turboprop de-icing technology – air-filled rubber "boots" that expand and contract to dislodge ice, instead of the in-wing heaters used on jets to keep ice from forming.

Since the crash of Continental Connection 3407 killed 50 in the Buffalo suburb of Clarence last Thursday, icing has been mentioned as a potential cause, but accident investigators have not yet said so officially.

The aircraft, a 74-seat Bombardier Q400 turboprop built in Toronto and launched last April, is in service worldwide; 219 are in use by some 30 carriers, part of a global fleet of 880 Bombardier-built Q-series turboprops in use.

But there's little chance Hall's recommendation will be carried out, since the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, which is responsible for the safety of civil aviation, is rejecting his advice.

"We don't have any data right now that would lead us to ground this aircraft," FAA spokesperson Laura Brown said.

"The FAA and the whole aviation industry has worked aggressively over the past 15 years to reduce accidents related to icing and those accidents have dropped significantly as a result of that work.

"The aircraft involved in the crash has a sophisticated ice detection and protection system that benefited from years of research and analysis about how aircraft operate and perform in icy conditions," Brown said.

Toronto's Porter Airlines exclusively uses the Q400 and yesterday Robert Deluce, the airline's president and chief executive officer, praised the plane's safety record and de-icing and anti-icing technology. "If (the safety board) had any concerns, or if the FAA or Transport Canada or Bombardier had any concerns about the aircraft, of any kind, it would have been grounded by now," he said.

"But this does not sound like anything related to the aircraft. This sounds like it is related to some other issues that have yet to come out."

Accident investigators have said Flight 3407, bound from Newark to Buffalo, pitched and rolled violently before plummeting several hundred metres into a house Thursday night, killing all 49 on board and a man in the house. One Canadian was killed in the crash. Yesterday more than 2,000 people attended a memorial in the U.S. for the victims.

Before the crash crews reported "significant icing," on the wings and windshield of the plane.

On Sunday, the NTSB reported the plane was on autopilot seconds before it fell from the sky, potentially violating federal safety regulations and airline guidelines.

An FAA spokesperson said the plane was cleared to be on autopilot in light to moderate icing conditions. The plane's de-icing system was on shortly after it departed Newark.

Hall said icing was a factor in the 1994 crash of the ATR-72 twin turboprop plane in Indiana.

William Voss, president of the Flight Safety Foundation, told the Star earlier that the plane involved in the 1994 crash was on autopilot prior to the crash, which could have exacerbated the situation.

The cause of Thursday's crash has yet to be determined.

Hall said his concern isn't with Bombardier, but with aircraft certification for specific flying conditions, such as those that produce icing.

"I have a great deal of respect for the Canadian aviation safety system as well as the manufacturer of this particular aircraft," Hall said. "My concern is with the failure in the certification process in the United States in light of accidents involving aircrafts similarly designed, which was the ATR-72."

The Q400 was not on the market until 2000 but Hall said the structural similarity still merits an investigation into the overall safety of twin-prop planes.

Bombardier spokesperson John Arnone said since the Q400 went into commercial operation in 2000 the planes currently in use have logged more than 1 million flying hours and 1.5 million take-off and landing cycles.

"The tragic crash near Buffalo represented the first fatalities in a Q400 aircraft," he said.

Arnone said he was not aware of any previous incidents with icing.

He said it was unclear why Hall made the comment adding, "frankly it doesn't change our priority as a company right now," which is to support the investigation. Bombardier has dispatched a team of safety and technical experts to work with the safety board, he said.

With files from the Associated Press

[Canoehead]

Mr. Hall is on crack.

As an NTSB investigator, I actually had respect for this man.

Now, I think he's lost his marbles.

[Rubberbiscuit]

Mr. Hall is on crack.

As an NTSB investigator, I actually had respect for this man.

Now, I think he's lost his marbles.

x2

Icing might be proven to be a factor, but I doubt it by itself brought down flt 3407.

[Hedley]

Actually, in the interest of public safety, all aircraft should be grounded.

If no aircraft flew, then no aircraft could crash, and who could
argue that getting rid of all aircraft crashes would be bad?

[Inverted2]

I agree, all aircraft should be grounded, this would prevent 100% of accidents.

[flyincanuck]

AND everyone should stay in bed.

[...]

AND everyone should stay in bed.

I could use 18 months to 2 years of sleep.

[JayVee]

How irresponsible to publicly suggest grounding all turboprops airplanes. It's an abuse of a former title to stir up public fear. More shit that some of us will have to deal with by having to answer stupid questions by pax, "is this airplane safe to fly?"
How can this idiot's comments do anything but hurt airlines using tp's?

[Pratt X 3]

I agree, all aircraft should be grounded, this would prevent 100% of accidents.

Until someone drove their car into one of the parked airplanes and then someone would then call for the destruction of all airplanes.

Make It Idiot Proof and Someone Will Make a Better Idiot

[Tim]

wow, considering his former job, you'd think he know his advice doesn't make any sense.

[airbournesailor]

Probably has shares in a regional jet manufacturing company or an airline that only flies jets!!!

[all_ramped_up]

i wonder if i'd get paid vacation off? lol

what a maroon... seriously.

[Carrier]

Quote: “The tragic crash near Buffalo represented the first fatalities in a Q400 aircraft,"

There have been NUMEROUS fatal crashes of jet aircraft such as the A300, A310, A320, B737, B747, etc. Using the same logic it is obvious that all jet aircraft should be grounded. Doh!

[jigger79]

The FAA in general and American carriers should provide a more indepth look into how to escape icing conditions. Anyone remember the ATR in Roselawn? the crew left the autopilot on in severe icing with no attempt to escape, the aircraft was at full trim then spun into the ground on autopilot. I fly the ATR and will bet that the Dash 8 will now have to go through all the icing bullshit that the ATR had to go through. Not to mention the long drawn out "how to fly in icing conditions" course, complete with a 90 page study guide. Just because Southern based US pilots really don't understand the concept that while an aircraft is certified for icing, it dosn't mean that it makes perfect sense to just sit in the stuff and hope that the machine can handle it. In the ATR you have to have all the de-icing equipment on at an oat of 10 or less and signs of visible moisture, plus all the ice detectors and the ice evidence probe lights must be serviceable for dispatch. I love the ATR and to this day still hear people(passengers) say things like, "this airplane is bad in ice or man, i hope we dont get into ice". Its the people up front who make an aircraft safe in these conditions and all the Canadian drivers that I know dont like to sit in a layer if they are picking it up.

[Cat Driver]

Its the people up front who make an aircraft safe in these conditions and all the Canadian drivers that I know dont like to sit in a layer if they are picking it up.

Is the answer for the USA to hire only Canadian pilots?

[glorified bus driver]

Probably has shares in a regional jet manufacturing company or an airline that only flies jets!!!

This Hall guy has to be on crack and I also agree with this quote. He has to have something to gain off of this. He needs to give his head a shake!

[Old fella]

Comments from Mr. Hall are why the FAA is sometimes at odds with the NTSB as the FAA was quick off the mark to indicate (at present) they will not ground that aircraft type.

The NTSB themselves must be embarrassed on the comments from its former Chairman after all the NTSB had made it quite clear there are going to be other issues to explore(like crew action) relating to this incident outside of specific airframe ice.

Bizarre comments indeed from the former Chairman

[flyincanuck]

Something is just not right.

Come on, don't believe the former NTSB chair would suggest grounding all turboprop aircraft.

If I was a betting man, I'd chalk this up to the usual poor reporting courtesy of The Star.

They only direct quote from Hall is: " 'I think the prudent thing to do ... is ground the aircraft,' "

It wouldn't surprise me if The Star sensationalized that quote into the setup-sentence, which reads "The former head of the [NTSB]...says all similar twin-engine turboprops should be grounded..."

Grounding the Q400 is extreme, but within reason. Grounding all turboprops...well....

I'd be on the horn with my lawyers if I was Jim Hall.

[Canoehead]

http://www.hallassoc.net/index.htm
Here's the link to Mr. Hall's website. I was looking to see if there were any other business links the man has (ie: what's his motive & who's paying him off to say this drivel etc.). I don't know why he would be so reckless to release such a statement, except that he is ignorant and/or in need of the spotlight again. First off, does he know what the final report of the Colgan accident is going to say already? He beaks-off like he's already got the conclusion in his hands. 10 years ago, he would have been telling everyone to 'wait until we have all of the factual information' etc. His comments are misleading and his information is incorrect about 'flaps and icing on the earlier 40-seat model'.

My search for this information is in the AD listed at:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:-g8 ... cd=1&gl=ca

The stuff in the AD is all common sense stuff, and I think he has taken the info and 'dumbed it down' to the point that it's wrong in his release. The DH8 is not unsafe in icing conditions, even if it is prolonged. His talk about extended flaps in icing conditions is wrong. What potentially is unsafe is prolonged icing conditions with flaps extended (ie: in a hold). Furthermore, I bet that the language in the AD exists for almost every transport category airplane (either via an AD or in the AFM originally) in some form or another (although I'm not a jet guy).

Secondly, does this man have any idea how many large turboprop movements take place every day? At Jazz, I bet we do about 500 DH8 departures per day, and if there's anyone that does this in icing conditions regularly, it's us. Hall refers to Roselawn and Clarence as being reasons to ground the fleet? Give me a break. Why aren't we grounding the 737 fleet? After all, they went off the runway in Denver, and we don't know why yet (or do we?). Better ground them, eh Jim?

PS: Guidance for operations in icing conditions, including what we can/can't operate in is excellent at Jazz.

[Northern Skies]

Ground turboprop aircraft, moron says

Fixed it.

[GilletteNorth]

AND everyone should stay in bed.

I second that

[Canoehead]

Something is just not right.

Come on, don't believe the former NTSB chair would suggest grounding all turboprop aircraft.

If I was a betting man, I'd chalk this up to the usual poor reporting courtesy of The Star.

They only direct quote from Hall is: " 'I think the prudent thing to do ... is ground the aircraft,' "

It wouldn't surprise me if The Star sensationalized that quote into the setup-sentence, which reads "The former head of the [NTSB]...says all similar twin-engine turboprops should be grounded..."

Grounding the Q400 is extreme, but within reason. Grounding all turboprops...well....

I'd be on the horn with my lawyers if I was Jim Hall.

He says it here on his website. After carefully re-reading the statement, I see he is referring to the DH8 fleet, and not large turboprops overall. However, I still stand by my remarks above. http://www.hallassoc.net/news/news_021409.htm

[Mitch Cronin]

AND everyone should stay in bed.

Naw, most people die in bed, so that can't be safe.

[swordfish]

Naw, most people die in bed, so that can't be safe.

I wonder if you can get cancer from too much bed.

I agree, all aircraft should be grounded, this would prevent 100% of accidents.

Not to mention the savings in fuel and maintenance costs.

[Four1oh]

Hall said aircraft with turboprop engines fly at slower speeds than jets, making it easier for ice to accumulate. He was also critical of turboprop de-icing technology – air-filled rubber "boots" that expand and contract to dislodge ice, instead of the in-wing heaters used on jets to keep ice from forming.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a faster airplane have a higher catch rate than a slower airplane? I don't feel like cracking the books to look it up...