Is it a bird? A plane? VNAV? ...No,

[Rotten Apple #1]

jjj], I hadn't heard of this one:

"always select a hard altitude on the legs page by deleting the A from a 3000A at a DTW"

,

but will start insisting on it the next time time I fly. Thanks for the heads up!


not

[Four1oh]

Regarding that helios crash, and the pilots mis-identifying the horn: I think I could safely say that 99% of all Boeing pilots have heard that horn at some point in their career. And I'd say 90% of them have heard it in association with a configuration problem, while on the ground. Is it a big deal? Nope, not at all, until you're in the air, and the air is getting thinner by the second and then the horn goes off, and your first thought is... 'wtf is the configuration horn going off for?' Now you're getting a little light headed...getting giddy. how many seconds left do you have before you have a chance to remember it's a dual horn?

We are all taught that Hypoxia is insidious, that it's effects are different in different people, yet we have an alarm for a pressurization failure that is also insidious! Sure, an explosive decompression is impossible to mis-diagnose, but in the case of helios, the cabin rate was relatively slow compared to let's say, a window popping out in cruise or something.

I'll admit, I've been surprised in the sim, and it took a good solid 5 seconds or so to realize what the horn really meant, and another second or two wasted before I realized that I could cancel it(you can cancel it in the air, but not on the ground), and that was without the sneaky effects of hypoxia. Bottom line is, Boeing cut a corner by sharing the horn with 2 separate warning systems. Yes, only one can happen on the ground, yes the other only happens in the air, and the logic is perfect for a guy who wears a white coat and has a pocket calculator stuffed in the breast-pocket, and isn't in the plane at high altitude when the climbing cabin altitude is causing an intoxicating effect.

Given enough time, I'm sure the Helios boys might have figured it out, but they ran out of time and air.

The good news is the planes now coming off the factory line are getting additional lights installed to help the pilots identify and recognize a pressurization failure sooner, which will save lives. And, as per the Boeing play book, just like with the rudder hard overs, just like the exploding center fuel tanks, and now, just like the altitude warning horn... deny deny deny, blame the pilots, etc.
I guess you can't blame them; after all, how many lawyers does it take to file a class action lawsuit and sue successfully? Then they quietly fix the design flaw all the while denying the existence of any design fault on their part.

But hey! At least they fix it... In the end the improvements are made; hell, maybe we can thank the ambulance chasers!

[swordfish]

Well, 4-1-o, as an outsider to 737 flying, we have to wonder about how the light could have been missed 6 times...even with a Boeing SOP (I don't think they have a 10k' check). And most of us who fly pressurized aircraft have this informal 10,000' check: lights, logos, pressurization. Hell, that has been with me for 15 years, though I don't know how they do it in Greece!

Isn't there an annunciator light to go with the horn?

[Ryan Coke2]

So just to get this straight, you don't know 737's, and you don't know the details of the Helios event, but you do feel you know enough to lay it entirely at the crews feet?

Hmmmmm. Maybe this is why we are supposed to be cautious of making judgements without all the facts.

Should they have noticed? Of course. Were things missed that should've been caught? Absolutely. Have you ever made an error, maybe even a dumb error that surprised even you?

I'll tell you, I see a lot of pilots of all different skill levels, including many excellent ones. They all have one thing in common--they make mistakes. Some more than others, but it is a trait which we all share.

These guys made some errors, and the warning system which was there to protect them didn't do the job. It is a sound which through experience get's connected to a config issue, and there is nothing obvious which indicates its cause being different when it is due to pressurization. Only now has Boeing decided that a light which says 'hey, it's a pressurization problem guys' been added to eliminate any uncertainty as to the the nature of the problem.

They made several mistakes, but in the end the warning system was not well thought out and didn't protect them like it was supposed to..

[Four1oh]

Well, 4-1-o, as an outsider to 737 flying, we have to wonder about how the light could have been missed 6 times...even with a Boeing SOP (I don't think they have a 10k' check). And most of us who fly pressurized aircraft have this informal 10,000' check: lights, logos, pressurization. Hell, that has been with me for 15 years, though I don't know how they do it in Greece!

Isn't there an annunciator light to go with the horn?

no. horn only. Except the latest coming off the production line will have the horn plus annunciator lights

[jjj]

Regarding VNAV,

Software version 10.8 is out and running on at least one tail I know about.

Activate confusion.....

at least some good literature has been issued to help some of you wiz bang FOs explain it from an official source to those who don't study enough.

Capt:"This damn VNAV thing doesn't work!!!!!!!"

FO: "Actually sir, it's doing exactly what you told it to."

[Four1oh]

Since when do they say 'sir'??

[jjj]

You can politically correct and still speak with disdain.

[Four1oh]

ooohhh, one of THOSE 'sirs'!