I wonder how difficult it will be for Cat Driver.

[The Orillia kid]

I wonder how difficult it will be for Cat Driver not to post in this topic!!!!!!

I give it 5 days...or less!!

If Pilots are not happy with Transport Canada and they want a overhaul of the system. why dont we get someone like Widow to organise a Petition for Change. If we get all the pilots signing I am sure our government will have to take notice.

We have all heard of now what happens with Maintenance in 703 & 704 and the consequences of pilots being pushed into situations that end in tradgedy. Lets all as a pilot group say enough is enough.....
Lets make 2009 the year that brings about change here in Canada.

No more talk about it...lets put it into action!!!!!

Just my thoughts....5 cents worth!!

[Cat Driver]

If Pilots are not happy with Transport Canada and they want a overhaul of the system. why dont we get someone like Widow to organise a Petition for Change. If we get all the pilots signing I am sure our government will have to take notice.

The only way government will take notice is when the news media gets the public all riled up and they might lose votes.

[Epsilon]

The only way government will take notice is when the news media gets the public all riled up and they might lose votes.

The problem is: general and 703/704 aviation is rarely newsworthy. And even when we do make the news, half of the information is incorrect.

[. ._]

If Pilots are not happy with Transport Canada and they want a overhaul of the system. why dont we get someone like Widow to organise a Petition for Change. If we get all the pilots signing I am sure our government will have to take notice.

The only way government will take notice is when the news media gets the public all riled up and they might lose votes.

I agree. Politicians pay NO attention to petitions or demonstrations. I have heard and seen this on numerous occasions from numerous politicians both on TV and in person.

The vast majority only pay attention to opinion polls and the people that do or can fund their campaigns.

-istp

[snoopy]

If Pilots are not happy with Transport Canada and they want a overhaul of the system. why dont we get someone like Widow to organise a Petition for Change.

Why do you need Widow, or anyone else for that matter, to instigate change? Why can't you initiate change (and that doesn't include nominating someone else to do it for you?!).

This is such an ongoing theme on these forums. Endless bitching and complaining, but hardly anybody seems willing to take the time and effort to make a change. Is it fear? Apathy? Or is it just that nobody wants to disrupt the status quo?

[Four1oh]

I would start a college of pilots. That would get the gov's attention when thousands of pilots represent one loud, lobbyist's voice. Isn't that what Air Canada, Westjet, and others are doing?

[flyinthebug]

snoopy.. Its all the above.. plus alot of unseen issues as well. It was said above that they dont really care about 703/704 and sadly that is partly true. We would require someone like "widow" to assist us with distribution of petitions, organization of any association that may come from such an effort, not to mention keeping the communication directed and focused. Maybe its not "widow" but any sucessful "change" in our history, came as a result of an organized effort. Otherwise, we would just be another toothless voice from the 703/704 sector of Canadian Aviation. If we targeted groups like the court parties, hydro workers, doctors etc etc etc that fly on our King Airs and Navajos (yes some still fly in piston) and showed them how truly UNSAFE the conditions are within the 703/704 ops.. Maybe then a few people would sit up and take notice. If a few good judges and high ranking officials from the medical profession would be willing to sign our petition,..maybe then someone at TC would listen?

Im ready to step up and assist with this anyway I can.

Fly safe all.

edit *to edit

[Cat Driver]

This is such an ongoing theme on these forums. Endless bitching and complaining, but hardly anybody seems willing to take the time and effort to make a change. Is it fear? Apathy? Or is it just that nobody wants to disrupt the status quo?

One person all on their own will have zero impact on changing how the small airplane sector of aviation is regulated.

I took the time and effort to actually do more than complain so far the only effect it has had on the industry is I was driven out of it by TCCA for my efforts.

I'm thinking that most out there are not willing to end their careers for no net gain.

If we targeted groups like the court parties, hydro workers, doctors etc etc etc that fly on our King Airs and Navajos (yes some still fly in piston) and showed them how truly UNSAFE the conditions are within the 703/704 ops.. Maybe then a few people would sit up and take notice. If a few good judges and high ranking officials from the medical profession would be willing to sign our petition,..maybe then someone at TC would listen?

The above is worth thinking about.

[snoopy]

flyinthebug,

I appreciate what you are saying, but I am fully aware of what it costs to speak out for safety and change.

If people are not capable of stepping forward on their own, and require someone else to organize change on their behalf, those will be the first people to lose interest when the going gets tough and when they are needed most.

And believe me, things will get really tough before they ever change.

To be a part of change you can't just jump aboard whatever petition-signing flavour of the day exists - you have to make a huge effort to educate yourself: gather, and understand information from many sources in order to speak intelligently and effectively so that all levels will listen. You then have to lead by example, and deal with the flack, which generally comes from all sides because humans are resistant to change.

To rely on someone put forth all this effort on your behalf, and instigate change which you can then be a part of for as long as you remain interested, is not a recipe for longevity.

So I maintain - don't ask anyone else to do what you are not prepared to volunteer to do first.

[flyinthebug]

Thanks Cat. I really do believe an organized effort could truly make an impact.. at least on that "sector" of 703/704 air traffic. Could you imagine, if enough of us are willing to walk our talk..and could organize a specific day that we know court parties are travelling on, and just target them. Have the media there in 5 or 6 (or more) diffrent airports, with even 25 present or previous Canadian commercial pilots at each location, simultaneously (sp?) , and approach the court parties with documents and examples in hand and then watch how FAST things start to happen! They would be shutting down ops all across the country.. any court parties with contracts across Canada with 703 ops would demand an inquest at very least! Cat, you would have your day as well and things might just truly change..

Now, looking at that above suggestion.. what would it take to pull it off?
Hmm, simple math 25 x 5= 125. Thats our first hurdle. Is there 125 of us across the country that are willing to risk our careers and lay our names on the line.. in the interest of public safety? Do 125 of us care enough? ... I THINK it could be done... and snoopy in answer to you.. I am certainly willing to step up and offer an avenue. I`ll take your advice and be the first to offer to organize this , and it can start with "please feel free to PM me if you wish to be involved with this effort to increase awareness and change the safety practices of 703/704 ops across Canada".

Heres my ONLY problem. Some on here know who I am. Im no one special at all, but I have enjoyed 14 amazing years in this industry and flown all over Canada & the USA. I have worked with some amazing people along the way (and met my share of idiots as well, who im sure the feeling is mutual). I have trained pilots as a CP and headed small & large airlines across Canada. Some would view my actions as *radical* , while others will and do support me as they see past the exterior and chose to listen to the person rather then his surroundings. To those people who I know are reading this, I thank you for your continued support and friendships.. And, to those that know me and view me as being "radical".. Im sorry you feel that way, but you once asked me to come fly for you too! I couldnt have been all bad.

Anyways.. I bring up this "personal" stuff because the younger guys and gals coming up will base their decisions on whether or not to assist this effort..on the person who LEADS the effort. Im too controversial to lead any sort of effort like this, BUT!, I CAN and WILL assist people like Kirsten and others who will step up and LEAD this effort. I have offered a rational and realistic opportunity. I will be chastized for that alone..not to mention the fact that im onside with such an effort. I dont care! BUT, snoopy this is why I could not offer to lead.

I will look fwd to Pms from anyone that has any questions. I will take names and ensure they remain confidential and directed ONLY to Widow or whoever may become the organizer of this.

This is truly very "doable"

Fly SAFE all!

[snoopy]

Thank you.

[Roper]

This is such an ongoing theme on these forums. Endless bitching and complaining, but hardly anybody seems willing to take the time and effort to make a change. Is it fear? Apathy? Or is it just that nobody wants to disrupt the status quo?

One person all on their own will have zero impact on changing how the small airplane sector of aviation is regulated.

I took the time and effort to actually do more than complain so far the only effect it has had on the industry is I was driven out of it by TCCA for my efforts.

I'm thinking that most out there are not willing to end their careers for no net gain.



Well, Cat Driver. Read that West Wind thread and see how some fellow pilots 'support' those efforts made to help improve the industry. Then, people that admit they don't know the whole story, go on to just tell them that they 'bite the hand that feeds them'. What a joke. No wonder there's no change going forward.

[Prairie Chicken]

If we targeted groups like the court parties, hydro workers, doctors etc etc etc that fly on our King Airs and Navajos (yes some still fly in piston) and showed them how truly UNSAFE the conditions are within the 703/704 ops.. Maybe then a few people would sit up and take notice.

I think we're all on the same page as far as making changes for the sake of safety--but we've got to be careful that we don't tar all 703/704 with the same brush. Also, these sort of tactics are likely to put a lot of pilots out of work (although I agree that's much better that dead).

[Widow]

I'm an outsider with nothing to lose by being involved. If it's generally agreed that I would make a good representative, I would be honoured to help in whatever way YOU decide it best.

[flyinthebug]

If we targeted groups like the court parties, hydro workers, doctors etc etc etc that fly on our King Airs and Navajos (yes some still fly in piston) and showed them how truly UNSAFE the conditions are within the 703/704 ops.. Maybe then a few people would sit up and take notice.

I think we're all on the same page as far as making changes for the sake of safety--but we've got to be careful that we don't tar all 703/704 with the same brush. Also, these sort of tactics are likely to put a lot of pilots out of work (although I agree that's much better that dead).

Exactly Prairie Chicken. And therein lies the problem. I dont want to see hundreds of my peers being "shut down" over clerical mistakes or other minor issues. It is my belief that there are still far more good ones then bad..even on 703/704 levels and therefore a focused effort would only affect a select few pilots.. who are indeed contributing to the problem, by flying for these individuals. If we end up getting the AOC of say 20 small ops across Canada pulled.. and that takes 87 guys/gals off the payroll.. If it forces these ops to improve or get out.. isnt that worth the sacrifice? Its a question ive asked myself 100 times.. and my consciencous keeps reminding me daily of the answer. The real world is dollars and cents and control most everything..but an organized group against "SELECT and KNOWN BAD Ops" in the end, will only improve safety throughout the 703/704 level and promote safety as a model for future ops to strive for. Good post PC.

and Your welcome

Fly safe all.

[snoopy]

I hope you don't think I am picking on you, but I take issue with this statement:

"but an organized group against "SELECT and KNOWN BAD Ops" "

This sounds like vigilante territory. Who will decide who the SELECT and KNOWN
BAD Ops are? This is precisely the stance that Transport Canada has taken in their overall stand down of regulatory activities, lack of investigation and enforcement, and in trying to suck "whistleblowers" into providing evidence so they don't have to do the work, but still cover their collective asses.

What you are describing should be the role of a proper regulatory agency - if we had one! THIS is what we need to fix - in the worst way. You can't fix individual operators until you first fix the operating framework.

I believe we need a third party legal review board, accessible to anyone, and to whom the regulator is accountable for how they operate. Right now, the regulator is accountable to NO-ONE, and as such is running amuk. Our government is a disgrace to the international aviation community, and "safest country in the world"... my ass.

We need each and every one of us to do our job professionally, legally, responsibly, ethically and with good airmanship. We need to stop supporting the status quo (until it becomes a good thing), stop bending under pressure to break the rules, and stop implicitly condoning unsafe practices by apathy and inaction.

At the same time, we need to educate and lobby the public and politicians - to pressure the government into positive change, accountability, proper federal (not regional, personal or whimsical) standards, and enforcement under proper law, for those that break it. This is where your lobby effort suggestion would be useful.

Anyway, thanks again for listening.

[flyinthebug]

I dont disagree with much of what you said..The only problem is to reach the people that you`ve pointed out as being the people that should be "responsible" for overseeing and ultimately taking action.. as we all know, sometimes fall short of doing their jobs.
That said, as Cat has pointed out time and time again, some form of organized civil disobedience could well cause enough of a "stir" that TC officials would then be forced to act. Looking at a watered down version of what I mean.. If you and I and 5 others walked into Ottawa and demanded that the entire system on a 703/704 level needs revamping.. we would recieve polite smiles, nods in agreement from their "yes men/people" and NOTHING would happen. However, same senario, but now its 6 provincial court judges who now refuse to fly with their contracted air service provider.. and therefore no more trials up north til they address the issues being brought forward by actual pilots that fly these aircraft.. I assure you, something would happen and FAST.

Snoopy, im suggesting doing something to get the attention of those that should be governing these operators.. and force them to do their jobs. Thats all. Nothing more or less.
In order to do that, we must first get their attention.

That said, I do understand your issue with my wording. It really was more of a wording issue, then my personal "witch hunt". When I say "known".. I mean via word of mouth from people that have come to me to express their concerns at their present employer. Some younger people even feel "scared" to go to work everyday! I felt that way for my 3 years on the wet coast.. but not because my machines were crap, out there it weather! Either way, a pilot should not be forced to fly in aircraft that are unsafe, and we need to do something to change that.. as its all too familiar a story for the younger (and even older) ones coming up.

My 2.7 cents.

[black hole]

I think that if we all agreed on an agenda and sent it to the top dog demanding his resignation before sundown and back it up with a one day general strike in all Canadian aviation. Also there would be a second one day strike on a date, yet to be announced
BH

[Cat Driver]

The problem is Canada has two different sets of rules and laws in aviation.

One set for those who work in industry who must abide by the rules and laws or pay a penalty for not doing so.

A second set for those who work for the regulator where there is no accountability regardless of what they do.

With a system such as that if you are a Canadian citizen working in aviation you have no recourse when they operate outside of the rules and or the law.

Merlin Preuss is the perfect example of what you get in TCCA, an arrogant and dishonest civil servant who thinks he is free from such needless annoyances such as accountability for his actions.

[mcrit]

I would think twice before we try and get the attention of the politicians, or to get the public riled up. You're most likely to see a knee jerk response from Ottawa, especially if they are under pressure from the media/public. We could wind up with the aviation equivalent of the gun registry dropped on us from on high.
I like the previously mentioned idea of a College of Pilots, or a real national aviation professional's association. Something of that scope could be used to put some real pressure on the government, and would have enough size to be of influence.

[Prairie Chicken]

I like the previously mentioned idea of a College of Pilots, or a real national aviation professional's association. Something of that scope could be used to put some real pressure on the government, and would have enough size to be of influence.

I also like this approach. Professional, yet with enough numbers to speak with credibility. Unfortunately, organizing and becoming established is a long and painful process. Many groups simply don’t succeed, farmers for example. Still, you’ve got to start somewhere.

[Dr. Mcillicuddy]

hello there,been a long time since no hear. stillinthe same place after three years. getting to old for this crap. best of luck, Dave.