West Wind Pilots Reinstated

[Samaritan]

PGbulldog- You say that the doors may all be locked one morning, why would that be?

Also you state that 90k isn't a bad wage, do you have personal knowledge to verify this number or merely rumor tossed back and forth across the metal shear?

You also state that these guys can't have much experience anywhere else in the world but I see you worked on the HS748 for 6 years, considering that timeline I wonder how much experience you have elsewhere in the world.

Seems to me that if you are in maintenance you are pretty unqualified to weigh in on any issues pertaining to flight crew. It shouldn't matter if they unionize or not to you, you can just keep watching your own back and getting yourself the sweet deal you are apparently capable of working out on your own. I don't see too many flight crew heading over to the maintenance forum and saying unqualified and uneducated statements like,"it must be nice to have 5 days in a row off all the time and make $75/hr"

Now I assume that when you're on nightshift you are supposed to be fixing something not surfing avcanada.

[ifr]

All I'm saying is I wouldn't be surprized if the doors were all locked one morning.

If so, that act would speak volumes about the management. Besides how they treat their staff, this would show that they might also be putting egos ahead of their passengers and the companies, many unionized, that filled their wallets for many years.

[Marauder]

pgbulldog,
You speculate about many issues you have no knowledge of. If you knew anyone in WW and got some cold hard facts then some of your threads may have been shorter. First of all, attaining 90K in WW takes 6 years on the ATR as a captain, which compared to other 705 operators is low. Saskatoon was rated 167th most affordable city in Canada. So, 90K doesn't get a person very far in that market as it used to.
I agree that unions don't always work and that some workplaces have been ruined by them. However, management abusing the power that they have is wrong too, which is what happened in this circumstance. When management is open to honest discussions about issues or concerns that employees have I believe that unions are not needed. In the case of WW though, obviously the management has not listened to the concerns of their employees to the point that the union question has come up.
I don't think that WW is a bad place to work. It could just use some serious tuning up.

[pgbulldog]

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[Samaritan]

Bottom line is I agree that they were wrongfully terminated, I just don't think a union is the answer.

If you agree laws were broken, then what is the answer.

You stated earlier that you only need the protection of a union if you are not doing a good job, but now you agree that people are wrongfully terminated on a whim. Yes it truly sounds to me like nobody has anything to worry about.

[pgbulldog]

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[Samaritan]

Weren't they terminated for trying to bring in a union? Like I said I agree that they were wrongfully dismissed, I don't agree with them trying to bring in the union.

Why?

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

If you agree laws were broken, then what is the answer.

TCCA allows anonymous reporting for regulatory infractions, and the Canada Labour Board enforces the Labour Code. Without knowing what transpired, I would hope those avenues were explored prior to contacting a union. Using a union first to solve problems when government bodies exist to aid in resolutions would be a pretty strong knee-jerk reaction.

[pgbulldog]

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[KISS_MY_TCAS]

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[Samaritan]

You still didn't answer the question. If you aren't a part of it I guess you can hang on to your money.

[pgbulldog]

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[pgbulldog]

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[Samaritan]

Well I guess I made the incorrect assumption that a professional could actually formulate something that made more sense than,"the evildoers are after your money." What is the basis of this argument? What is your personal experience that allows you to toss such a statement around as fact? Why exactly are you concerned about other people's money?

[pgbulldog]

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[Samaritan]

Why are you concerned about what my stake in all this is.

Because it affects the validity of your statements.

You accuse one group of selfishness because they aim to take an active role in their own future. If it isn't self-interest that motivates you what exactly is it?

[FamilyGuy]

Company's get the Union they deserve (or not).

Current WWA mgmt should look to WJA for how to avoid a Union drive. (Hint - it isn't with strong arm tactics)

These boys will be able to work there again - it's actually pretty common. The CIRB really frowns upon retribution as a result of it's ruling - they aren't stupid either. Trumped up fake BS issues after this ruling will only cost them more $$$

I'm not surprised to see WWA as a top 50 - used to be a good employer. I am surprised to read this thread...or maybe not. All it really takes is one or two misguided managers to upset the whole apple cart.

I'd like to know what kind of scratch the senior WWA managers/owners are pulling in. If they don't share that generally causes problems. A nice house in QR or XE is one thing but a summer home in PSP is quite another...unless the boys making that $$$ feel valued...been there done that.

[WestCoast]

I'd have to give this round to Management (from a Business perspective). You have to ask yourself what is cheaper? Paying out a few months wages to a few guys/gals (Which you would have paid anyways if they were still around for those few months), or increasing everybodys wage for an indefinite period of time (sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly with a contract imposed by a Union) The other question you have to ask yourself is: Will Pilots ever stand together for a common goal? I'n my limited experience the answer is no. Best of luck everyone.

[xsbank]

Unions don't always raise wages. Wages are not the only reason to unionize. How many of you have a pension plan? Medical benefits? How many of you are NOT candidates for AC or Westjet?

Can anyone name me a company that went to the wall because of a union? Anyone?

You can certainly point out that GM has got union troubles but you have to remember that they 'negotiated' all their contracts, they didn't arrive there in a vacuum.

Companies get the union they deserve.

Do I need to say that again?

[Marauder]

Pgbulldog,
It sounds like you have a huge bias against unions. I would agree that unions should be the last answer. But, it sounds like this is the last answer. Management has just about become deaf to the pleas of their employees. The decisions that were made, it seems, were made because of pride, not good business sense.

[Driving Rain]

Anytime someone needs a convenient whipping boy they trot out unions.
Not all companies or unions are equal.
I would love to work for a non-unions company that provides all the benefits I have in my union job. Other than West Jet the pickings are slim.
In my current occupation there are some non-union companies. I really doubt the non-union companies would pay at the rate they do if they didn't have to compete for labour against union outfits.
One has to just look south of the border and see the state the air tanker industry is in down there. We should thank our lucky stars.

[gapper]

I wonder what will happen to the little "house n*****s" that took promotions to replace the fired pilots. Maybe they will have to go back to "rubbing" the CP.

[swordfish]

Marauder, Samaritan, et al:

Actually, I'm not fan of unions also...and I am a pilot. It is my position that they suck money out of you for their own political welfare, under the guise of "assisting" pilots better their conditions. They tell you to go on strike, rather than continue to negotiate in good faith, and if you do not obey the decree, you are blacklisted socially, emotionally, and professionally, treated with disrespect by other members who toe the line, and are subject to public humiliation, rejection, insults, and threats of retribution and violence against yourself and family while you are on strike...and for fuckn WHAT??

To deny services to the hand that feeds you, and force a hostile, uncivilized, confrontational resolution to the issues you are trying to resolve. eerrr....hello...?? What was that about vinegar and honey...?

Why not simply a collective bargaining unit of the pilot group within the company, with NO STRIKE MANDATE, and you keep picking away at things till you all agree. A "work-to-rule" mandate is fine, and appears to be effective in promoting the continuation of negotiations (doesn't it?) Consensus government? This is the only place in the world where it works properly.

Example: WJ and Skyservice are the only 2 I am aware of, but there must be hundreds of others.

[SaskStyle]

Just curious but has anybody looked at it from the other side. Were these guys model employees to start? I'm sorry but if working half the month with good equipment and being home almost every night and getting paid well to do it is bad working conditions then maybe they should go work else where. I know that staffing issues have been a problem for every company and finding experienced people is even harder and employees have suffered because of it. I think these guys need to see what else is out there for jobs. How much experience do these guys have at other companies? Not saying that West Wind is the best but it's far from the worst. West Wind is not Westjet and pilots shouldn't expect things to be the same. I agree that they shouldn't have been let go for trying to organize a union. Some pilots have gotten everything form West Wind and now they are turning their backs on the company that has given them their careers. I know a lot of pilots who work in crappy conditions and operators that push pilots to be unsafe, West Wind is not one of them. Have these guys thought about what a union is really going to do for them and how it effects everybody in the organization. I think some people are being really selfish. Talk about bitting the hand that feeds. With the economy the way it is right now I think we should all be thankful that we have jobs. If it's so bad at West Wind why do so many pilots and AMEs move from next door???? There are a lot of good pilots out there and there are some that just make everybody elses live miserable. I'm not saying that that is the case with these pilots. I'm just saying that there always three sides to the story, one side, the other side and the truth. I wouldn't be cheering to loud if I didn't know the whole story, and none of use ever will.

WOW This is going to be fun. And too easy.

You have a lot of random thoughts and ideas thrown into this post...I haven't read the rest of the thread yet...can't wait to see what it has developed into....

"Were these guys model employees to start?"
No. They weren't "model" employees. They flew airplanes. I haven't heard of many people getting paid to build models.

If, however, you were seriously questioning the integrity of these individuals and their work ethic...then you must have something to back up your accusations. I realize this forum is a place to vent frusterations...but when you open these lines of dialogue with open ended questions...you should be prepared to be able to stand behind what you say...online or not. Especially if you work there. If your defination of a good employee is to bow down to whoever signs your paycheque with no question, number one you're in the wrong industry and someone's going to get hurt by your passiveness...and number two you're in the wrong country...i can list some countries where autocratic rules still apply. If you feel more comfortable in that environment, by all means take your family and enjoy.

"I'm sorry but if working half the month with good equipment and being home almost every night and getting paid well to do it is bad working conditions then maybe they should go work else where."

Do I sense a bit of jealousy in this sentence? Envy is a dangerous emotion chief. You start preaching about the truth at the the end of your rant. I implore you to take a bit of your own advice. Learn what these individuals have done thus far to be able to have the opportunity to work half the month with good equipment and home almost every night. I guarantee you it wasn't a case of "I have a shiny new pilot's licence." and the next day "Hey look at me drive an ATR!"
Take some time to learn why they work half the month and the rules that govern that. Just take some time and think. Try and keep your emotions in check.

I think these guys need to see what else is out there for jobs...West Wind is not Westjet and pilots shouldn't expect things to be the same. I agree that they shouldn't have been let go for trying to organize a union. Some pilots have gotten everything form West Wind and now they are turning their backs on the company that has given them their careers.

If I understand correctly...Your thought is that because the working conditions at West Wind are better than most other companies, the pilot's should be thanking their stars that they are blessed to have the opportunity to be there. You're also insinuating that they are oblivious to other conditions across the country, better and worse. And then you end it with another comment that along the same line of thought...

Unfortunately I have other things to attend to...so I don't have time right now to give you my real thoughts on those comments...but suffice to say that they are just plain wrong...and i'll finish up later...

[pgbulldog]

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