Can you legally continue the flight ...

[Driving Rain]

I remember seeing a film on WW2 very young German pilots getting checkouts in single seat 262's. The instructor pilot would be perched on the wing drilling the pilot on proper engine handling. When he felt they had engine handling down he would climb down and off they'd go on their first flight in a modern jet fighter. These pilot were low time and some didn't have much combat experience, sadly most were senselessly slaughtered.
As the war drew to a close allied pilots recovered these valuable jets and flew them to a port in France so the technology could be studied in GB and USA. These pilots didn't have much in the way of time either. The one thing both groups of pilots had in common was they could fly and think for themselves.

[mag check]

IMO the only "number" that the ASI indicates, that is even remotely accurate is VNE.
Airspeed is a joke. The numbers indicated by the ASI are not related to the flying qualities of the aircraft in any way. They are rough estimates to give non thinking pilots a false sense of security.
All a pilot should be concerned with IMO is angle of attack. The simplest angle of attack "indicator" is the stick in your hand.

It shocks me that any commercial vfr pilot would admit to "needing" an ASI to fly safely.

[Hedley]

If you had the opportunity to take an old biplane for a ride without getting a checkout. Would you?

Hey! Quit following me around

Whenever you want to rent a dull-as-dishwater Cessna, some 200hr
kid that started flying 2 years ago is going to want a minimum 1 hour
checkout. But whenever something truly unique needs to be flown,
all you're going to hear are crickets

I can't remember the aircraft types I've had to check myself out in
over the decades. In the last couple years, it would include Piaggio
Royal Gull, PT-22 Ryan, 450hp Stearman, 700hp clip-wing Harvard,
Beech 18, Soneria II w/jabiru engine, Falco 8L, rotary-engine Sportsman2+2,
and probably a bunch of other ones I don't remember. I don't
bother keeping track of types flown - I don't buy into that "notches
in the belt" crap.

Taught myself to fly aerobatics in the Ryan, Stearman and clip-wing
Harvard, then added them to my ICAS card for low-altitude airshow
aerobatics in them. AFAIK I'm the only person in North America qualified
to fly low-altitude aerobatics in the PT-22 Ryan at airshows

No one was around to teach me how to fly them - let alone how
to fly aerobatics in them - so I had to teach myself. Of course you
read all you can find, and talk to anyone with time on type to
see what they remember. Generally there are a couple things
to watch out for, and the rest is pretty much normal. There's
a wing, and there's an engine.

I will never turn down expert instruction on an unusual type,
but that's about as common as hen's teeth. It is an unusual
treat merely to have around a pilot with experience on type
to talk to. Often they are horrible instructors, though. Often
they are horrible pilots. For example, the previous owner of
the Beech 18 I fly always, always 3-pointed it. Simply bizarre.
I did some reading on the internet, got some advice from
. and others here, and it was a piece of cake to wheel
land. What a pussycat. So much for all the hangar stories
of it being a fire-breathing dragon.

I was at a fly-in last summer, and was dozing near the 450hp
Stearman, and an older gentleman walked up, and started
talking about his 450hp Stearman, and what a fire-breathing
dragon it was to land. I just blurted out, "but it's a pussycat!"
and the poor older guy deflated. Sorry about that.

[swordfish]

mag check says:

Airspeed is the last instrument that I would consider "required" for safe flight.
What is it used for other than to check that your aircraft is cruising along the same speed it always does?

...then reiterates:

IMO the only "number" that the ASI indicates, that is even remotely accurate is VNE.
Airspeed is a joke. The numbers indicated by the ASI are not related to the flying qualities of the aircraft in any way. They are rough estimates to give non thinking pilots a false sense of security.

The dumbing down of aviation never fails to amaze me.

How very true, Cat...me too.

[mag check]

Swordfish,

Man, if you can't SAFELY fly your simple VFR aircraft without pushing to VNE, then what are doing?

Could you please tell me what critical flight information is displayed to the pilot on the ASI?

[LousyFisherman]

From a green as (Ontario) grass pilot

If you had the opportunity to take an old biplane for a ride without getting a checkout. Would you?

Where do I sign up? How big should the check be?

Where would you learn about its flying characteristics, in the 70 year old 12 page “Owners Manual” if not there then where?

I suspect there are other places but I would look for really old farts on AvCanada for a start

Do you think you can manage to get it started and to the runway without a checklist?

Why? Would I not be allowed to create my own checklist based on other airplanes?
Things such as check all control surfaces work properly. And yes I am green enough that I would have that as part of my checklist. I would be excited enough that I need a checklist, no matter how simple it is

Once you get past all that and your trucking down the runway trying to keep it strait with the tail up. You find a moment to glance at a gauge, where do you look? at the oil pressure or the airspeed? And why? Which one would you rather see at zero?

This one I know from cars, not from my ab initio training. Oil pressure and temp,
I do not want it at zero because I need an engine no matter how fast I am going

If you want to know what you should do, find someone that flies old tail wheel planes.

Is there anyone in the Calgary area?

Also I did understand about goldeneagle's 185 but often there are references here that I do not understand. Basic explanations from the experts of what they are criticizing and the proper ways to do things would be greatly appreciatted and would help in training all the newbies like myself

LF

[foxmoth]

confusion here. pioneer pilots needed (and had) very little. Thats why they were 'pioneers" duh!
if your vmc, guess you only need engine instruments. piece of string willkeep you strait.
imc we all need help. "needle ball and airspeed"

[mag check]

Swordfish,

Have you figured out what critical flight info is displayed on the ASI in that simple VFR aircraft?

I'll give you a hint: none.

[swordfish]

mag check asked:

Swordfish,
Man, if you can't SAFELY fly your simple VFR aircraft without pushing to VNE, then what are doing?
Could you please tell me what critical flight information is displayed to the pilot on the ASI?

I have been flying planes for 44 years, and I have to admit, it is no sweat to fly a plane without the ASI. However, after 35 of those years flying by reference to the instruments, I have also discovered how valuable the ASI is when combined with power, attitude, and trim.

This is not withstanding the ASI is an instrument mandated by legislation as one of the basic primary flight instruments. i.e. if all else fails, watch your airspeed. The regulators of every jurisdiction IN THE WORLD have decreed this, btw...

And in regard to your last question: The following critical information is displayed on an airspeed indicator: Vmo/Vne, the associated barber pole, a cautionary range (yellow) into which full motion of the controls from one extreme to the other is prohibited, maximum speed at which initial flap extension may be made, maximum speed at which full flaps may be extended, single engine best rate of climb at maximum gross weight, the normal operating range of airspeeds with the flaps extended, the minimum speed at which the aircraft is controllable on 1 engine in the air, and the speed at which the aircraft will stall at gross weight in the landing configuration with the power at idle.

I realize this doesn't tell you much in flight, but after a while you become accustomed to looking at it, like every few seconds for the complete duration of the flight, except when making a limits approach, you scan it every second.

Hope this helps...

[mag check]

mag check asked:

Swordfish,
Man, if you can't SAFELY fly your simple VFR aircraft without pushing to VNE, then what are doing?
Could you please tell me what critical flight information is displayed to the pilot on the ASI?

I have been flying planes for 44 years, and I have to admit, it is no sweat to fly a plane without the ASI. However, after 35 of those years flying by reference to the instruments, I have also discovered how valuable the ASI is when combined with power, attitude, and trim.

This is not withstanding the ASI is an instrument mandated by legislation as one of the basic primary flight instruments. i.e. if all else fails, watch your airspeed. The regulators of every jurisdiction IN THE WORLD have decreed this, btw...

And in regard to your last question: The following critical information is displayed on an airspeed indicator: Vmo/Vne, the associated barber pole, a cautionary range (yellow) into which full motion of the controls from one extreme to the other is prohibited, maximum speed at which initial flap extension may be made, maximum speed at which full flaps may be extended, single engine best rate of climb at maximum gross weight, the normal operating range of airspeeds with the flaps extended, the minimum speed at which the aircraft is controllable on 1 engine in the air, and the speed at which the aircraft will stall at gross weight in the landing configuration with the power at idle.

I realize this doesn't tell you much in flight, but after a while you become accustomed to looking at it, like every few of seconds for the complete duration of the flight, except when making a limits approach, you scan it every second.

Hope this helps...

Boy, that ASI doen't sund like one installed in a SIMPLE vfr aircraft, like the one this thread was started about.

In a SIMPLE vfr aircaft, such as a cub, champ tcraft etc. the only mark on the ASI will be a red line at VNE.

Your so called "VS1" marking on you complex twin ASI that you listed is NOT accurate at all.
It is simply the number that happened to be repeatable under flight test conditions, by a test pilot, under very exact loading conditions.
It does NOT take into effect any real world conditions, such as your aircraft cg, your prop low pitch stop setting, your control rigging, the cleanliness of your ac, or even your flying skills.

I understand that it is required by law to have an ASI, bu that wasn't what I was replying to.
the question was; if it was legal, would you continue?

I say yes, as there is nothing of importance shown on that simple ASI anyway, other than you are cruising along at 85mph like you always are at 2300rpm.

[MrWings]

OK, the ASI is irrelevant to some. I'm sure others will say ailerons are uneccessary as they can roll a plane by sticking their arms out the window. Good for you.

The ORIGINAL question remains:

Is the continuation of the flight legal?

[Highflyinpilot]

isnt the second post on this thread your answer, or am i missing something?

[MrWings]

Well, that's what I thought.

But then others said it was up to the interpretation of CARS and then others said you don't even need a working one.

So, assuming the continuation of the flight wasn't legal, does the reporting of their actions in a newspaper constitute an investigation by TC? Or does this novelty historic flight somehow make them exempt?

[mag check]

Sorry guys, I have to post once more on this, as I just noticed some problems with this:

single engine best rate of climb at maximum gross weight, the normal operating range of airspeeds with the flaps extended, the minimum speed at which the aircraft is controllable on 1 engine in the air, and the speed at which the aircraft will stall at gross weight in the landing configuration with the power at idle.

These speeds are NOT accurately displayed on an ASI.

VMC is displayed as a calculated speed at sea level. So tell me what tha red line is telling you at 6000'?

Single engine rate of climb speed is directly related to VMC, so again, how is what you are seeing at 6000' accurate?

VSo, and VS1 can be tested at any power setting the manufacturer chooses, up to zero thrust, which will make a major difference in the speed that you will see when the nose drops, if you are at idle, so what is that ASI really telling you? There will likely be a 10-15% difference in these speeds.

Most pilots can't even keep the wings perfectly level during a stall, so that will change the displayed speed as well.

I'll tell you again, the speeds displayed on your ASI are not accurate.
They are just a simple way of displaying very general estimates, so that any Joe Blow pilot can jump in the plane and fly it "by the numbers".

[21_gun_salute]

WOW!! cat I am so with you on this one....the dumbing down!!!

Mag check, I am speechless. Is it possible to fly "safely" without an ASI?? absolutely. But to say that it is a useless instrument!! WOW!! again, speechless.

[flyinthebug]

I swore I was going to leave this alone.. but mag check, I dont understand why you are riding swordfish so hard? Hes right in all he is saying. I said earlier in this post that your comparing apples to oranges, and you are. If we are strictly discussing an old bi-plane or DHC-2 then of course, even *I* might be able to fly-er without an ASI. I suggested an ASI was a very necessary part of approaches etc. I pointed out why and my reasoning. I believe its valid.

So in accord with most on here, yes, im sure its done everyday.. guys fly VFR without a functioning ASI. IFR, night, etc.. i`ll keep the ASI as a primary instrument on my scan:)

The original question was whether he was breaking a reg and my answer was and remains, yes. Any subsequent leg after his first, he was breaking a reg. Having an functioning ASI became a REG as a step towards better safety then we had in 1929 in aviation. Maybe they are not a "required" instrument but to me, they are a valuable one.

Fly safe all.

[Cat Driver]

605.14 No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose of day VFR flight unless it is equipped with

...

(c) an airspeed indicator;

This is a very clear regulation.

If you got in an airplane and found someone had removed the airspeed indicator from the instrument panel you would be in contravention of that CAR if you take off without the airspeed indicator in the panel.

[square]

Ok this is pretty straightforward. It's negligent to take off without an airspeed indicator because it puts you at risk of stalling on approach. And I've had 4 ASI failures in the past 6 months, so I know how to mitigate it, but it is just plain bad airmanship to say an ASI is 'no big deal' the way you'd shrug off a .. I don't know you shouldn't be shrugging off little stuff either, but this isn't a little one. It's a legal requirement and a safety item. So you should, as they say, make it look good for the accident report.

[mag check]

, I dont understand why you are riding swordfish so hard?

Because he seems to think that I'm "dumbing down" aviation.

Seriously guys, I am shocked that a bunch of so called aviation professionals think that an ASI is some kind of tell all instrument that is going to keep them from stalling, and crashing.

Someone PLEASE tell me that I'm not the only one that understands that angle of attack is what is important.

An ASI is very capable of being off >100mph at stall. That sure sounds usefull.

Legally required, YES.
Something I would stare at, in hopes of it saving my life, I think not.

Did these guys break the law? Not if the ASI was in the dash, as Cat Driver said.

[Cat Driver]

Training pilots using the fear method to imprint the belief that the failure of an airspeed indicator is reason to go into panic mode is dumbing down flying training.

The airspeed indicator when working properly is a very valuable instrument to cross check the performance of the thing you are flying, however there are many other clues and instruments that will allow you to safely continue the flight.

I get real uneasy when I hear this mantra of " airspeed alive " during the take off roll.......breeding this fear into a new pilot is setting up a scan from outside the airplane to inside the airplane that can lead to the pilot missing some other visual clue that may result in a loss of control or running off the runway looking for something that does not prevent you from continuing the take off under complete control.

Ever heard of flying attitude when visual?

Airspeed alive means SFA as far as determining just how the accurate airspeed indication will be once airborne.

Anyhow this conversation will just keep going down hill so before I go and get a 357 Magnum and shoot myself I think I'll just sit back and watch this argument unfold.

[flyinthebug]

Fair enough mag check. I had to review the thread to see where swordfish may have indicated something to that effect .. Me personally, could really use an explanation of the actual meaning of "The dumbing down" of aviation? Im not sure I understand how that would be considered an insult?. Maybe you or Cat could offer me a better understanding or example of what dumbing down means?. I certainly understand the term, but not certain I am applying it correctly in this senario?.

Fly safe.

Edit.. I just read your post Cat and thank you, I do now understand what the term "dumbing down" means in this regard.

I am surprised that calling "airspeeds alive" on the take off roll disturbs you? I was trained that way since the day I started flying.. and each subsequent training capt has trained me that way as well. I have trained others that way. At certain airlines its an SOP! I like seeing my 2 ASIs come alive on the take off roll (as PNF or PF).. and YEs damn it! I do monitor the ASI on take off rolls. Why is that wrong? I do not so much on floats.. I do that more by feel of course.. but on wheels and definately in any two crew environment i`ve been in.. Its been airspeeds alive as a "standard" call, and I made it part of our SOPs. Could you please take this a bit deeper and explain why me being trained for 15 years this way is incorrect? Or that the way I have trained others over the years is incorrect? Transport made a HUGE deal of it on a PA31-350 ride of mine years ago. They chastized the First Officer for NOT calling "airspeed alive". They said it confirmed to the PF that both sides ASIs were functioning and "reasonably" accurate. I was also challenged by another Tc inspector on a SPIFR ride on the same aircraft type. He wanted to HEAR me call it..as a way of him knowing that I was acknowledging airspeed.

I have since always trained two crew that way. If this is incorrect or wrong, please fill me in.

Thanks Cat.

[mag check]

Training pilots using the fear method to imprint the belief that the failure of an airspeed indicator is reason to go into panic mode is dumbing down flying training.

The airspeed indicator when working properly is a very valuable instrument to cross check the performance of the thing you are flying, however there are many other clues and instruments that will allow you to safely continue the flight.

I get real uneasy when I hear this mantra of " airspeed alive " during the take off roll.......breeding this fear into a new pilot is setting up a scan from outside the airplane to inside the airplane that can lead to the pilot missing some other visual clue that may result in a loss of control or running off the runway looking for something that does not prevent you from continuing the take off under complete control.

Ever heard of flying attitude when visual?

Airspeed alive means SFA as far as determining just how the accurate airspeed indication will be once airborne.

Anyhow this conversation will just keep going down hill so before I go and get a 357 Magnum and shoot myself I think I'll just sit back and watch this argument unfold.

Thank you Cat, I figured at least you would get it. Anyone who doesn't, should.

I'm done, it's night here, and I'm thirsty

[contrite]

"...I get real uneasy when I hear this mantra of " airspeed alive " during the take off roll.......breeding this fear into a new pilot is setting up a scan from outside the airplane to inside the airplane that can lead to the pilot missing some other visual clue that may result in a loss of control or running off the runway looking for something that does not prevent you from continuing the take off under complete control...."

There's a couple of hundred German tourists that ended up as shark food off the coast of the Dominican Republic because some guy who knew better didn't worry enough about a malfunctioning ASI on the take-off roll. And Doc, that was a ten-thousand hour pilot in command of that one.

It's interesting that on this thread, pilots are being derided for advocating paying attention to the ASI, and on the 3407 thread they're being slagged for not watching it closely enough.

[Cat Driver]

Thank you Cat, I figured at least you would get it. Anyone who doesn't, should.

I am also available for marriage counseling and advice on social diseases.

[flyinthebug]

Man you guys are fast! lol.. Cat pls read my edited post above. Thanks.