Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

[AuxBatOn]

In the "good" old days ,,, the Captain was god and the co-pilot handed out the coffee and did the radios etc ,,

This sort of statement always makes me wonder when exactly those " good old days " were.

I do not recall those days but then maybe I am to new to the industry to have experienced that era.

Can you tell me how long ago it was you were flying when you had to work with that mindset crazy_aviator?

I think he meant when CRM became big. To most, at that time, CRM was something instinctive, something that made sense. It should have been common sense, but as you know, common sense isn't so... common, or at least it is different from individual to individual. Just look at the KLM Accident in Los Rodeos Airport, you'll understand what he means by the "good old days".

[Four1oh]

This could be a simple case of the PF failing to Aviate... maybe no one noticed the speed deteriorating because no one was watching the instruments? I wonder how many sets of eyes were watching the wings shed ice?[/justanotherspeculation]

[square]

He didn't say 'the good old days,' he said 'the "good" old days.'

[swordfish]

crazy_aviator referred to:

...the "good" old days ,,, the Captain was god and the co-pilot handed out the coffee and did the radios etc ,,

.! You MUST remember those days...! That was when the captain of a DC3 did all the takeoffs and landings, and the copilot flew the 4-5 hour portions of straight-&-level, loaded and unloaded while the Captain had a smoke and a coffee, and shot the shit with the passengers, while ridiculing the copilot trying to get up on the wing unassisted to add a 5-gallon pail of oil to each engine; loaded the gen-set with the winch on his own, then hand-bombed all the loose welding rod boxes and luggage, then tied it all down on his own.

During the flight, the copilot was the only one on board who knew how to use an astro-compass and the Almanac, and kept the flight from YZF to YBB somewhere on track; he would then serve sandwiches and pop to the passengers, then return to the cockpit where the Captain was chain-smoking his 20th cigarette. And if God was in a bad mood, you could go 4 hours without so much as a word till you heard "flaps 1; gear down, landing check".

At the end of the flight, the copilot would empty the honey-bucket, start the 2-cycle APU, then get up on the wings again to put the tents on in a 25 kt breeze when it was -30, then put the boards on the front, and plug the plane in; then listen to the Captain bitching about the C-P "taking so fuckn long" to get the job done while the copilot sat in the back of the pickup as they drove into town to the "hotel".

Yep, those were definitely "the good old days"... surely you remember them?

[FL020]

SWORDFISH!

you have a whole hell of a knowledge of UP NORTH flying by the sounds of it!.....

You must be an experienced "northern flyer",.... eh there ol chap....


...........

[Prairie Chicken]

Swordfish, you sound like you flew for B Airways (although I’m sure there were lots more that operated that way). In fact, I recall a DC-3 accident in the ‘90’s where the captain wouldn’t believe the 2ic’s argument they didn’t have enough fuel to do another leg. In that case, the 2ic was right.

Yeah, the ‘good’ old days ... the first operational trip I did in a two-crew operation sticks in my mind. The captain briefed that in the event of an emergency, don’t try to follow SOPs, just keep my hands out of the way!

But back to 3407, I’ve wondered the same but will hold off on opinions until we read the report.

[Driving Rain]

Yep, those were definitely "the good old days"... surely you remember them?

Thanks for the night-mares.
It was even more fun in a Canso. Hand bombing 5 barrels of av-gas by wobble pump from a James Bay freighter canoe bobbing up and down in 3 foot swells off the coast of Port Harrison (Inukjuak) with the port engine running.

[Boobie Toucher]

crazy_aviator referred to:

...the "good" old days ,,, the Captain was god and the co-pilot handed out the coffee and did the radios etc ,,

.! You MUST remember those days...! That was when the captain of a DC3 did all the takeoffs and landings, and the copilot flew the 4-5 hour portions of straight-&-level, loaded and unloaded while the Captain had a smoke and a coffee, and shot the shit with the passengers, while ridiculing the copilot trying to get up on the wing unassisted to add a 5-gallon pail of oil to each engine; loaded the gen-set with the winch on his own, then hand-bombed all the loose welding rod boxes and luggage, then tied it all down on his own.

During the flight, the copilot was the only one on board who knew how to use an astro-compass and the Almanac, and kept the flight from YZF to YBB somewhere on track; he would then serve sandwiches and pop to the passengers, then return to the cockpit where the Captain was chain-smoking his 20th cigarette. And if God was in a bad mood, you could go 4 hours without so much as a word till you heard "flaps 1; gear down, landing check".

At the end of the flight, the copilot would empty the honey-bucket, start the 2-cycle APU, then get up on the wings again to put the tents on in a 25 kt breeze when it was -30, then put the boards on the front, and plug the plane in; then listen to the Captain bitching about the C-P "taking so fuckn long" to get the job done while the copilot sat in the back of the pickup as they drove into town to the "hotel".

Yep, those were definitely "the good old days"... surely you remember them?

That is awesome!!! HAHAHA I'm pretty sure 99% of the pilots wouldnt go back to that in a million years.

The PF should be doing just that - FLYING...and the PNF should be monitoring the PF. If either one knew of the dangerous situation they were headed into it doesnt sound like anything was said or done. I'm sure if the voice recorder went like this "UMM Capt we are too slow" with a response of "I got it sweetie" We would have heard that on day one as the "significant ice" that was heard was announced by everyone.

BTW half of the flights I fly if you pulled the tapes you'd hear me say something like "aww man we're into the ice again &^%$ when will this @#$% winter weather end!!!"

Its not that its dangerous ice when I'm complaining about it however...I just swear a lot as i feel swearing adds to the calmness of flying airplanes

Oh and about a week ago I mentioned to the capt that we were at ref speed 5 miles from the airport...at night with traffic everywere looking outside and all that...so I know this can happen.

[xsbank]

Swordfish, you must have been a passenger on any trip on my first job as a copilot! You've made my day and reminded me why I refused to sit in the right seat of ANYTHING for 20+ years and why I am top-heavy with PIC!

My greatest moment was when the mighty Racer blew a jug right out of the cowling on the right side and promptly caught fire and the captain didn't believe me when I called "fire on number 2" so he took off his seatbelt and leaned over me for a look, went all white and called for the drills.

I was so cowed by then I wouldn't touch a knob or button (unless it was to get out of my seat and dump alcohol in the prop de-ice tank) unless I was told, so I waited for him to start the drills!

I was promised a right seat in the company jet "if I did a good job" but of course that never happened as there was never an opening.

MY captain had been flying the route quite a while and was a bit of a ladies man (go figure) and disappeared the moment we shut down to visit which ever one lived in that town while I did the tents and fuelled up and climbed on the wing with the oil barrel like spiderman in a parka and steel-toed boots.

Did I mention that we always took 26 guys in a 24-seater on camp moves? There were always 2 guys standing behind us or seated on our five-stars watching and adding to the merriment whenever the captain ridiculed me.

Nowadays, if I flew with a pilot like that I'd punch him silly and walk home the first time the wheels touched down. Then, I thought it was all part of "the plan."

Thanks, Swordfish. I actually feel better!

[canwhitewolf]

dltd

[mcconnell14]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/19/buffal ... index.html

Southwest Airlines warned its pilots just weeks before the crash of a commuter flight in Buffalo about safety issues with so-called instrument approaches at the airport. The warning concerned runway 23, the same runway the crashed commuter plane was lined up to use.

Instrument approaches are those in which pilots use cockpit displays to line up their aircraft with the runway when visibility is low.

The alert, reissued Wednesday by the airline's pilot association, warned Southwest pilots there was a "potentially significant hazard" concerning the instrument landing system's glide slope guidance signal for runway 23.

The airline advised, "Pilots who are preparing to configure and land have the potential to experience abrupt pitch up, slow airspeed, and approach to stall if conditions present themselves in a certain manner."

Southwest Airlines spokesperson Linda Rutherford said an earthen dam at the end of the runway was interfering with the signal being sent to inbound flights. Rutherford would not confirm if any of Southwest's recent flights into Buffalo experienced problems on approach.

"We often put out alerts on obstructions to a navigation aid," Rutherford told CNN. She also pointed out, though landing on the same runway, Southwest Airlines flights approach runway 23 from the north, turning right, while the crashed Colgan Air flight was approaching from the south turning left. Rutherford called that distinction important.

The National Transportation Safety Board told CNN the agency was "aware" of the Southwest Airlines alert, but would not comment further. The Federal Aviation Administration is looking into the matter.

The alert from Southwest Airlines advises pilots that the problem could cause the planes navigational system to interpret data "in such a way as to result in a nose-up pitch and loss of airspeed."

Flight data recorders obtained by the NTSB of the crashed Colgan air flight 3407 show during its approach to runway 23, the twin turbo prop Dash-8 pitched up 31 degrees before going into a stall due to lack of airspeed.

Southwest Airlines Pilot Association told its pilots the "issue is being addressed on several levels in an attempt to address procedures, facilities, and communication regarding this matter." the alert advises any pilots experience trouble to contact the association's safety office

interesting...i wonder when the NTSB or FAA will take these alerts and stuff more seriously..how many accidents have been linked to late actions from the NTSB or FAA?

[yfly]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/19/buffal ... index.html

Southwest Airlines warned its pilots just weeks before the crash of a commuter flight in Buffalo about safety issues with so-called instrument approaches at the airport. The warning concerned runway 23, the same runway the crashed commuter plane was lined up to use.

Instrument approaches are those in which pilots use cockpit displays to line up their aircraft with the runway when visibility is low.

The alert, reissued Wednesday by the airline's pilot association, warned Southwest pilots there was a "potentially significant hazard" concerning the instrument landing system's glide slope guidance signal for runway 23.

The airline advised, "Pilots who are preparing to configure and land have the potential to experience abrupt pitch up, slow airspeed, and approach to stall if conditions present themselves in a certain manner."

Southwest Airlines spokesperson Linda Rutherford said an earthen dam at the end of the runway was interfering with the signal being sent to inbound flights. Rutherford would not confirm if any of Southwest's recent flights into Buffalo experienced problems on approach.

"We often put out alerts on obstructions to a navigation aid," Rutherford told CNN. She also pointed out, though landing on the same runway, Southwest Airlines flights approach runway 23 from the north, turning right, while the crashed Colgan Air flight was approaching from the south turning left. Rutherford called that distinction important.

The National Transportation Safety Board told CNN the agency was "aware" of the Southwest Airlines alert, but would not comment further. The Federal Aviation Administration is looking into the matter.

The alert from Southwest Airlines advises pilots that the problem could cause the planes navigational system to interpret data "in such a way as to result in a nose-up pitch and loss of airspeed."

Flight data recorders obtained by the NTSB of the crashed Colgan air flight 3407 show during its approach to runway 23, the twin turbo prop Dash-8 pitched up 31 degrees before going into a stall due to lack of airspeed.

Southwest Airlines Pilot Association told its pilots the "issue is being addressed on several levels in an attempt to address procedures, facilities, and communication regarding this matter." the alert advises any pilots experience trouble to contact the association's safety office

interesting...i wonder when the NTSB or FAA will take these alerts and stuff more seriously..how many accidents have been linked to late actions from the NTSB or FAA?

Not to mention "late action" from the crew. Failure of ground equipment should not result in a crash.

[crazy_aviator]

Here is an exerpt from a PPRUNE submission ,,


Here is what a source at Bombardier has revealed about this accident:


Quote:

-This accident was a garden-variety stall-spin accident that had nothing to do with airframe icing.

-The aircraft was on autopilot approaching Rwy 23 at KBUF.

-Flap 5 was selected at 135 kts. (The initial flaps are available at 200kts. Gear can be selected at 200 kts).

-Approaching the FAF, flap 15 and landing gear were selected and speed quickly decayed to 105 kts. (there is no autothrust system)

-Due to the low speed in this configuration, the aircraft pitch angle now became abnormally high at 6 degrees n/u

-Selection of airframe de-ice to "on" programs low speed warnings, stick-shaker to be moved up by approx 20 kts.

-At the approximate interval when gear was selected but not yet down, the stall warning and stick shaker and stick pusher were activated. (this disconnects the autopilot)

-Due to the low speed and configuration, the longitudinal trim had run to a large amount of nose-up trim.

-The aircraft rolled to the left and pitched down significantly.

-The pilot applied full power (approximately 10,000 hp) and pulled up.

-The nose pitched up to 31 degrees (possibly due to the abnormal amount of nose-up trim) and the acft rolled to the right.

-The aircraft entered a secondary stall and began to spin.

Sounds like we are getting closer to the truth and it is Pointing to Pilot ERROR!
Mitigating circumstances may be icing and its concern ( distraction), glide slope interception problems,,,,, EDITED, ( another distraction) the lining up of the planets , and last but not least , we cant forget the inevitable UFO crossing the path of the startled pilots and taking away their lift !!! Honestly, it would be a SAD day IF it is found out that the accident was caused by a SIMPLE preventable error of getting too slow AND reacting in the wrong manner I wish it would not be so and was found out that the UFO s were to blame !!!

[crazy_aviator]

In the states, there has been a sucessful change in the criteria for ab-initio training for NOT requiring spins to be practiced ! Is it possible, that at Colgan it is not necessary to practice stalls to stick pusher and the ensuing recovery ? Where do we stop ? Do we perceive that airplanes and pilots are being so perfected that we wont need training for ANY airplane system failures ? Why do we hear that Airbus or the airlines do not practice ditching in the sim ? ALL engine out maneuvers ? etc etc ???

[Canoehead]

[quote="crazy_aviator"] Edited/quote]

I'd be willing to bet that this wasn't an issue, and you might think twice about saying that on a public forum, especially one with many female aviators reading and contributing

[fanspeed]

Edited

I'd be willing to bet that this wasn't an issue, and you might think twice about saying that on a public forum, especially one with many female aviators reading and contributing

X2. Jackass.

[Prairie Chicken]

X2. Jackass.

TIMES 3!!!

[xsbank]

I agree with that comment being crass, thoughtless and demeaning to a large percentage of our crews, but to quote or repeat what was said shows as little class as the original post.

[Stinky]

Since the pilot was fresh off the SAAB 340 and apparently it's prone to tail icing, perhaps the prior training that this guy had made him more aware and cautious of tail stalls as opposed to plain jane stall/spin scenarios.
It sound like the stick pusher caused him to think he had a tail stall and his recovery was appropriate.

Here's a quote from the linked article: "If the yoke is snatched forward, pull back to recover, and retract the flaps.

That's exactly what happened, the yoke was snatched forward. Still no excuse for the slow speed, what are the normal speeds on a SAAB 340?

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/ft_magaz ... e=February

[crazy_aviator]

Edited by Doc. This kind of post will cease....will it not, crazy? Me thinks it will.

[Doc]

Inexperienced crew. Unusual situation. Not to hard to read into it. The example illustrates my point. Put a ten thousand hour pilot in this airplane, the way we do here, and this would have been a non event. Why? Because this would not have been an unfamiliar situation.

[crazy_aviator]

Doc , I wonder why you deleted my answer to accusations ? I was supporting the fairer sex when i responded to 4 individuals who may be thinking different than what the thread was supposed to indicate !!

[xsbank]

Thing is, if both pilots had been watching the shop, the airspeed would never have deteriorated whereby they would have arrived at any situation that would need superior skill or experience. That's the sad truth behind modern training and why junior pilots will still be placed behind the controls of passenger-carrying a/c. This will only get worse as all the Sullys of the industry die off.

I always get on here AFTER the juicy posts have been toasted! Boo!

[Cat Driver]

This will only get worse as all the Sullys of the industry die off.

Don't forget us old birds usually die of natural causes, and seldom from smashing up an airplane.

[square]

You guys realize you don't have to have arthritis to fly an airplane right?