Outrageous

[B-rad]

I'm sorry but do you need to be reminded about some of the characters we are talking about?

RCMP officer Benjamin Monty Robinson, one of the four officers involved in the killing of Robert Dziekanski, has been caught drunk-driving and killing 21 year old Orion Hutchinson.

[MUSKEG]

ronjeremy. I have no doubt in my mind that the RCMP still have some of the best of the best. But the combination that was in VR that night certainly need union protection or jobs with the government to keep them. We keep reverting back to the use of force blah blah blah. What about the use of ones HEAD. How can you defend guys who had no intention of being rational and were going to use this new toy given them. Of course he didn't obey there commands. He couldn;t freakin understand them. That would be where the HEAD part comes in. Lazy, liers and punks in uniform. If you think they should get special treatment then you too fall into that catagory.

[ronjeremy]

I never once said they deserve special treatment MUSKEG. I'm simply pointing out that the majority of people making comments have never once been tasked with arresting someone. They have never dealt with anybody in that capacity and yet are willing to make comments such as "Lazy, liers and punks in uniform". Anybody who makes any comments with any sort of support for the actions of a police officer that the general public does not agree with is not met with rational arguments, they are met with comments degrading the RCMP or it's members. What is the reason for these comments? Do people honestly believe that all police are "Lazy, liers and punks in uniform", which is just one of the many comments I've read on here? Or is this coming from the outrage of what people percieve the police to be doing and the actions of a few?

And MUSKEG, you said "We keep reverting back to the use of force blah blah blah." Yes we do, because every police officer in Canada is bound by Use of Force policy, they are the rules that every cop must follow in order to use force. Explain to me how the RCMP's actions in YVR went against the Use of Force policy of the RCMP and I will no longer defend them. If you want to have an intelligent debate about this then give me a rational argument. Calling us liers, punks and blah blah blah is not what I'd consider an argument of merit.

Where is the outrage when a pilot runs out of fuel and crashes and kills somoene. Are pilots not trained to minimize risks to the general public who relies on them to get to their destination safely? I don't see how it's any different, a police officer makes a decision that could cost a life and so does a pilot. Yet there is outrage when a pilot is prosecuted. Maybe pilots are "Lazy, liers and punks in uniform".

[MUSKEG]

You are absolutely right some pilots are. But go ahead again and explain how you justify the use of a tazer on someone you can't communicate with verbally, given the fact you know he can't speak English. There was four of them and if you want to defend their actions good for you, but on playgrounds when a fight starts, 4 on 1 it's usually called bullying. There intention was to use force, which is obvious by the aggressive body language. I stand by my statement that those 4 officers are guilty of what the public saw that day. I forget exactly what the use of force policy is as it has been many years since I wore the uniform but I remember a calm approach and fact finding and then if necessary force being the norm. They made no attempt to calm down the scene, none whatsoever and then there was no urgency to try to revive the man. Welcome to Canada eh. By the way I never said all police were lazy, liers and punks in uniform, you know very well I was refering to the VR situation.

[Cat Driver]

Judging by the sense of disbelief and disgust that the public is feeling as every new day of the inquiry goes by the RCMP have gone from a proud Canadian police force to a gang of thugs.......just imagine what they are saying in Poland.

[Jastapilot]

If you were to replace the cops with teenagers, what happened was a swarming, as the media reports it nowadays. Those particular cops are a disgrace.

[ScudRunner]

Explain to me how the RCMP's actions in YVR went against the Use of Force policy of the RCMP and I will no longer defend them. If you want to have an

Could you post the RCMP's "Use of Force Policy"?

., I'd like to invite you to come and teach myself and the others in my detachment use of force, and afterwards I'd like to take you flying and teach you a few things I've learned in the 500 hours I've got.

How bout I start with diplomacy then a human behavior class, Then Ill sit you down and teach methods on how to diffuse a situation with reason and words you know how the RCMP got their good guy image. I will get around to combative physical force after I teach you how to disarm a person with a stapler one on one.

Tasers and Firearms will come after I have weeded out the Tackleberry Dirty Harry types.

[Nark]

Comparing this event to a high school bully(ies) is idiotic.
Do you think the dispatcher said to the responding members "calm, gentile man lost at the airport, could you help him?" Or something along the lines of "angry man throwing stuff"?

How bout I start with diplomacy then a human behavior class, Then Ill sit you down and teach methods on how to diffuse a situation with reason and words you know how the RCMP got their good guy image. I will get around to combative physical force after I teach you how to disarm a person with a stapler one on one.

You clearly show your lack of awareness in these situations. I recommend a small syndicated television show called COPS. Please return after watching one episode, and tell us how many people the police officers encountered were subdued with reason and words alone. I would recommend you do a ride-a-long, but I don't want you getting hurt; oops I guess I've spoiled it for you.

.., you simply ignore, or just don't comprehend what I have explained many times about escalation of force.

[B-rad]

I liked how this story conveniently left out the actual cause of death and left the reader to believe it was the taser, not a knee to his neck that cut the blood flow to his brain.

Nark, where did you come across this info? I can't seam to find anything that confirms his cause of death. Only "An autopsy by the British Columbia Coroner’s Service did not determine the cause of death".

[Jastapilot]

Comparing this event to a high school bully(ies) is idiotic.
Do you think the dispatcher said to the responding members "calm, gentile man lost at the airport, could you help him?" Or something along the lines of "angry man throwing stuff"?

How bout I start with diplomacy then a human behavior class, Then Ill sit you down and teach methods on how to diffuse a situation with reason and words you know how the RCMP got their good guy image. I will get around to combative physical force after I teach you how to disarm a person with a stapler one on one.

You clearly show your lack of awareness in these situations. I recommend a small syndicated television show called COPS. Please return after watching one episode, and tell us how many people the police officers encountered were subdued with reason and words alone. I would recommend you do a ride-a-long, but I don't want you getting hurt; oops I guess I've spoiled it for you.

.., you simply ignore, or just don't comprehend what I have explained many times about escalation of force.

There was no escalation of force. They merely walked in, surrounded him, and tasered him. He never had a chance. The cops were the ones who escalated the situation, not him.

[Jastapilot]

It's an older article, but pretty much sums it up for me.

RCMP Officers Failed In Taser Rules Of Engagement
November 17, 2007 — Raphael Alexander
According to an article in the National Post, the officers responsible for the death of Robert Dziekanski breached the rules for how the taser should be operated. In a 2005 Taser Technology Review Report, the B.C. Police Complaints Commissioner listed safety recommendations for deployment of the weapon.

1. Tasers should not be used against someone passively resisting, as Mr.Dziekanski was. Officers used the taser with his back up against a counter.

2. The Taser should not be used multiple times, as in the case that two blasts can be heard in rapid succession.

3. The subject should be allowed to breathe easily while being restrained since the shock to the system can lead to pulmonary-respiratory problems. Kneeling on his back and neck likely exacerbated this problem.

The officers breached all three of these rules, and worse than this, they did so in under one minute of coming into contact with Mr.Dziekanski.

“Where individuals are contained in a room, officers should use the time to formulate a plan for entry and restraint that allows them to immediately turn the person over to ambulance personnel,” the report says.

[...]The report states that multiple Taser shocks may have a detrimental effect on a person’s pH, carbon dioxide levels and lactate levels.

“Although multiple applications may be tactically required, particularly in remote areas where back-up is distant or unavailable, the risks associated should be included in an officer’s decision-making process,” the report says.

What appears to be the main culprit in the death of the Polish man was that he began struggling with the shock of the taser, leading the police to assume he was still resisting arrest, which in turn caused them to more aggressively seek to restrain him. This undoubtedly did not allow him to catch his breath, and he suffered further trauma from the restraint.

http://unambig.wordpress.com/2007/11/17 ... ngagement/

[BoostedNihilist]

I'm simply pointing out that the majority of people making comments have never once been tasked with arresting someone. They have never dealt with anybody in that capacity and yet are willing to make comments such as "Lazy, liers and punks in uniform". Anybody who makes any comments with any sort of support for the actions of a police officer that the general public does not agree with is not met with rational arguments, they are met with comments degrading the RCMP or it's members. What is the reason for these comments? Do people honestly believe that all police are "Lazy, liers and punks in uniform", which is just one of the many comments I've read on here? Or is this coming from the outrage of what people percieve the police to be doing and the actions of a few?

Ahh yes, the golden argument. Every government stinkhole has one. Some clause or policy, some piece of paper that says they can't be held accountable for their actions.

Anybody who makes any comments with any sort of support for the actions of a police officer that the general public does not agree with is not met with rational arguments, they are met with comments degrading the RCMP or it's members. What is the reason for these comments?

Here, you have identified the exact problem.

To the 'general public' who you 'serve' and 'protect' your argument is not rational. We do not understand use of force continuum or excited delerium. What we understand is what we see, and what we see on that tape does -not- -look- -good-

I see the tape, I know what I see, and then, the RCMP tells me that that is really not what I am seeing and in fact I am actually seeing something totally different? I can't wrap my head around that sentence let alone wrap my head around that kind of warped argument. Seriously, the general public knows unacceptable when they see it and this is unacceptable. The part which drives the general public insane is the fact that you rally around these individuals and try to justify the unjustifiable actions we see on this tape.

This is the reason you have not received a rational argument. It is because your argument is not predicated on logic.

There comes a point where all that is left is a broad generalization. If we see this kind of bullshit go down we will generalize because it is the only thing we can actually do. You don't like it, you fix it. Make people accountable for their actions and just fucking do it. If you don't do you really think you will be able to convince us you deserve anything but a nasty generalization?

"you have never been tasked with arresting someone?"

So fucking what. In the real world where us civilians live when we do something wrong we have to go up in front of our PEERS and be judged! Come out of your hole and put your money where your mouth is and let society judge this. Afterall you, my friend, are my indentured servant, and I expect you to do better than what I see on this video. In fact, the fact you don't see what is wrong here merely reinforces my belief that indeed the RCMP is riddled with liers, criminals and abusers.

I understand you have to hide behind your cloak of prestige, the RCMP prestigious heh. On one hand you have to defend your prestige by sticking up for some boozed up asshole who has factually commited a crime and KILLED some innocent bystander, yet on the other you have to protect him as a stand up member of society, capable of the ever so complex task of conflict resolution. HAH, conflict resolution, yeah, plug two in his torso and dogpile him till he's dead.. conflict resolved, then I know what, lets go out get pissed up and go for a little spin in the old hoopty.

The RCMP are beginning, thank god, to fall victim to the information age. Before, when they had the freedom of virtual anonymity they could do anything their little hearts desired. Now, with the advent of cell phone cameras and the internet society as a whole can begin to spot patterns. It's like all of a sudden the RCMP is in a fishbowl and society is tapping on the window.

Ronjeremey, for your own sake, and for the sake of the prestige of the RCMP, shut up. go to work tomorrow and try to do better. If you want to hide behind the prestige and image of the RCMP then you have to make sure you maintain that image at all times because man, you are in that fishbowl, and the tapping is not going to stop.

[mcrit]

I have no doubt in my mind that the RCMP still have some of the best of the best. But the combination that was in VR that night certainly need union protection or jobs with the government to keep them.

The bolded phrase is the key. We don't hear about the vast majority of cops that go out and do their job, and do it well, everyday. That's not newsworthy. We only ever hear about the type that 'was in VR that night'. That tends to give people a skewed perception. People on both sides of this argument need to realize that the cops in this incident do not represent all cops. That cuts both ways. It is unfair to label all cops as 'punks in uniform' because of what this particular group of cops did. By the same token, this group of cops has to take responsibility for their actions. They can not be allowed to hide behind a union or their brother officers. The people defending cops have to realize that making this particular group of cops answer for their actions is not a betrayal of cops in general.

[BoostedNihilist]

The bolded phrase is the key. We don't hear about the vast majority of cops that go out and do their job, and do it well, everyday.

That is the biggest crock of shit.

We also hear about three 'cops' gangbeating and robbing a delivery man

We also hear about cops who drink and drive and kill people

We also hear about cops chasing a suspect, being told to cease the chase, continuing the chase, then killing innocent people

We also hear about open gang warfare in broad daylight

We never hear "record drug bust"

We never hear "Hells angels successfully eradicated"

If doing their job is doing nothing then they're doing a great job

The people defending cops have to realize that making this particular group of cops answer for their actions is not a betrayal of cops in general.

This though is good stuff. I completely agree with this. Though getting this done is nearly impossible so in reality they set themselves up for a poor public image. Sad really.

[ScudRunner]

I recommend a small syndicated television show called COPS.

Ya because they always put the uneventful arrests into half hour shows, maybe that's the problem punks like this grew up watching COPS and thought that's what it was all about taking down a some crack heads in some Ghetto in the US. Or pull a car over for speeding and immediately draw your gun to look cool for the camera. Maybe that's why Americans make lousy Peace Keepers too much gung ho bullshit, trust no one, shoot first ask question later, that has been drilled into them since they where a kid types. Sadly we got em here to in good old Canuckistan, Oh I've done my share of ride a long's and have also witness police in the far flung area's of this country and in the City's deal with all sorts. Been in situation's that I wish I had my guns.

So since ive ignored your escalation of force routine, Spell it out for me. Guy is throwing a shit fit, you and 3 others surround him in an aggressively stance and pop a taser in his ass and then jump on him. If that's step 1 and 2 and 3 of your EOF then I would really like to hear steps 4 and 5.

Hell even your Buddy George W Bush gave Saddam a chance to give up the WMD's and then the ultimatum to leave the country before pulling the guns out. Shit next time send a B2 direct from Missouri with a nuke on board and have at er much easier that way.

[Nark]

..,

I have stated many times that confronting someone, you do not need to start at 1 and work your way up. Some people need to be met with guns drawn. Some people throwing a hissy fit in an airport lounge need to me met with taser's drawn. It was my point exactly, that COPS do not show the ones who subdue to authority quietly. As was the case of Mr. Dziekanski.

The people defending cops have to realize that making this particular group of cops answer for their actions is not a betrayal of cops in general.

An investigation into this event found the RCMP members actions did not warrant criminal liability. Why is nothing but their complete condemnation short of justice in your mind?

If Mr. Dziekanski died because of an allergic reaction to pepper spray would you have the same stance as you do now?

[ronjeremy]

There was no escalation of force. They merely walked in, surrounded him, and tasered him. He never had a chance. The cops were the ones who escalated the situation, not him.

Police do not go into a situation when they know the person is being violent, and the man in YVR was, and start at the bottom. They assess the information given by the 911 callers as they are responding and then reassess the situation once on scene, using current behaviour and the information given by callers. Then they react accordingly, which investigations have said they did in YVR.

Jastapilot, the recommendations are valid. I won't say that article is competely wrong except one paragraph caught my eye.

quote]What appears to be the main culprit in the death of the Polish man was that he began struggling with the shock of the taser, leading the police to assume he was still resisting arrest, which in turn caused them to more aggressively seek to restrain him. This undoubtedly did not allow him to catch his breath, and he suffered further trauma from the restraint.[/quote]

This is entirely possible. If true, then a subject being restrained who seems to be resisting will be held with more force. It's truely sad that it had an unfortunate outcome, but if this is the case the officers did nothing wrong in restraining a person who appeared to be resisting.

Ahh yes, the golden argument. Every government stinkhole has one. Some clause or policy, some piece of paper that says they can't be held accountable for their actions.

Anyone found to be contravening policy is held accountable.

Here, you have identified the exact problem.

To the 'general public' who you 'serve' and 'protect' your argument is not rational. We do not understand use of force continuum or excited delerium. What we understand is what we see, and what we see on that tape does -not- -look- -good-

If you do not understand use of force than you cannot understand the reasons for actions of police. It may not look good but it was within the law.

I see the tape, I know what I see, and then, the RCMP tells me that that is really not what I am seeing and in fact I am actually seeing something totally different? I can't wrap my head around that sentence let alone wrap my head around that kind of warped argument. Seriously, the general public knows unacceptable when they see it and this is unacceptable. The part which drives the general public insane is the fact that you rally around these individuals and try to justify the unjustifiable actions we see on this tape.

Their actions were justified as an investigation by an outside agency found.

This is the reason you have not received a rational argument. It is because your argument is not predicated on logic.

What parts of my argument are not logical?

There comes a point where all that is left is a broad generalization. If we see this kind of bullshit go down we will generalize because it is the only thing we can actually do. You don't like it, you fix it. Make people accountable for their actions and just fucking do it. If you don't do you really think you will be able to convince us you deserve anything but a nasty generalization?

People are accountable for their actions. If there was reason to believe that the 4 RCMP in YVR had broken a law then they would be held accountable. They were cleared by an investigation.

"you have never been tasked with arresting someone?"

So fucking what. In the real world where us civilians live when we do something wrong we have to go up in front of our PEERS and be judged! Come out of your hole and put your money where your mouth is and let society judge this. Afterall you, my friend, are my indentured servant, and I expect you to do better than what I see on this video. In fact, the fact you don't see what is wrong here merely reinforces my belief that indeed the RCMP is riddled with liers, criminals and abusers.

Society judges people charged with a crime, as in a trial. There are no grounds for a trial here.

You're right, I do serve the public. I will put myself in harms way to serve them, and have. Just as I must be accountable to the public, I expect the public to listen to the reasons and try to understand why I do what I do. I don't expect everyone to agree, but I also don't expect to be labelled a liar, criminal or abuser for doing my job. You cannot judge what you don't understand, just as I can't. And if, in the course of my job I break the law, I know I will be held responsible for my actions and I fully agree, there can be no cowboys in a job that has the power police have.

I understand you have to hide behind your cloak of prestige, the RCMP prestigious heh. On one hand you have to defend your prestige by sticking up for some boozed up asshole who has factually commited a crime and KILLED some innocent bystander, yet on the other you have to protect him as a stand up member of society, capable of the ever so complex task of conflict resolution. HAH, conflict resolution, yeah, plug two in his torso and dogpile him till he's dead.. conflict resolved, then I know what, lets go out get pissed up and go for a little spin in the old hoopty.

This is just too ridiculous and a little bit insulting. Are you saying the RCMP murdered him and then partied afterwards?

The RCMP are beginning, thank god, to fall victim to the information age. Before, when they had the freedom of virtual anonymity they could do anything their little hearts desired. Now, with the advent of cell phone cameras and the internet society as a whole can begin to spot patterns. It's like all of a sudden the RCMP is in a fishbowl and society is tapping on the window.

Society can watch me do my job until the cows come home. They may not agree, they may not condone, and they may not like what a police officer's job entails. But then neither do I. I do not like fighting with a cracked out individual. I do not like running into a house knowing that the 911 call from that residence was interrupted by screaming and the line went dead. I do not like going through 6 months of HIV and Hep testing because the tainted blood from the drug addict that I just fought with got all over me. It happens and I accept it, it's what a police officer's job entails. What I do not wish to accept is society telling me how to do my job when they have never lived a day in the life of a police officer. We are dealing with people who make their own decisions and can snap at the drop of a hat, even the best of situations can go sideways in a second and they do, a lot. I and every police officer I know does their job to the best of their ablility, within the scope of the law and as efficiently and safely as possible, and 100% ofsociety would still not agree with us.

Ronjeremey, for your own sake, and for the sake of the prestige of the RCMP, shut up. go to work tomorrow and try to do better. If you want to hide behind the prestige and image of the RCMP then you have to make sure you maintain that image at all times because man, you are in that fishbowl, and the tapping is not going to stop.

I won't comment on this, I'll shut up.

[mcrit]

Quote:
The bolded phrase is the key. We don't hear about the vast majority of cops that go out and do their job, and do it well, everyday.


That is the biggest crock of shit.

We also hear about three 'cops' gangbeating and robbing a delivery man

We also hear about cops who drink and drive and kill people

We also hear about cops chasing a suspect, being told to cease the chase, continuing the chase, then killing innocent people

There are ~25000 RCMP officers. I count less than 10 in your examples above. Let's use Roman engineering and assume that an error factor of an order of magnitude in that number which gives us an estimate of 100 RCMP officers up to shenanigans. That is still less than on half of one percent. My statement stands: The vast majority of cops do their job, do it well and we never hear about it.

We also hear about open gang warfare in broad daylight

We never hear "record drug bust"

We never hear "Hells angels successfully eradicated"

If doing their job is doing nothing then they're doing a great job

You're argument is paradoxical. Most of the cops that I know, given their druthers, would just execute the criminal element (i.e. the sort of behaviour that is at the heart of this incident). If you are looking to place blame for the open criminal activity in this country start with the courts and the defence lawyers, certain community activists (as an aside, anyone know what ever became of Duddly Laws?), and left leaning media.
I'm going to take your point about open gang warfare a bit further. The Toronto Sun ran a photo piece a while back that showed all the year's shoting victims and all of the perpatrators (at least the ones that had been caught). It was a vast sea of black faces. What would happen if someone were to use this suggest that all black people we're stoned, murdering gang bangers? (Just so were clear, I'm not suggesting this myself). So, why is it fair to slander all cops because of the actions of a few?

[BoostedNihilist]

MCRIT

When there is a crack in the dam do you say "oh look at that little crack"

Or do you say

"Oh holey shit, this dam is fucked"

I refer you back to a few comments you have already made

The people defending cops have to realize that making this particular group of cops answer for their actions is not a betrayal of cops in general.

I like to give the cops the benefit of the doubt in most cases, BUT, after having seen this video even I am inclined to bring these officers to task.

So, you agree that these cops need to be 'taken to task' and 'answer for their actions' but you can't see that the system put in place by the organization pretty much guarantees limitless unaccountability for their actions while wearing the uniform. It is hypocrisy in action. They serve and protect and when one of their own does something society doesn't understand they bombard us with legalese and policy documents and make damned sure that no precedent of accountability is set. So, as far as I am concerned, since the RCMP as an organization has utterly failed to pick up the ball and crucify these assholes they all become one and the same. Why? Because, without standing up to the obvious wrongdoing here they meld themselves into an organization which is seemingly above the law. I don't care if the majority of them are stand up guys, I don't care if they can come up with some training document from somewhere that someone has created about dealing with the 'task of arresting' I don't care. What I care about is what I see on this tape, and you seem to agree that these cops should be dealt with.

There are ~25000 RCMP officers. I count less than 10 in your examples above. Let's use Roman engineering and assume that an error factor of an order of magnitude in that number which gives us an estimate of 100 RCMP officers up to shenanigans. That is still less than on half of one percent. My statement stands: The vast majority of cops do their job, do it well and we never hear about it.

MCRIT, those 'less than ten' examples were the ones I remember from the past year. There are more that I could cite and these are just the ones WE KNOW ABOUT, and were significant enough for me to remember. You say the cops 'do their job and do it well' That is a huge misconception. Crime is up pretty much everywhere in BC every year. More cops come online but they can't seem to get out ahead of the criminals, in fact it seems they are becoming more impotent by the year. The RCMP has gutted the police force in many rural areas where the drug dealers and organized crime figures have virtual free reign, and where most of these organizations have key infrastructure, but oh no, they're doing a wonderful job.

You are right though, the majority of the organization is founded on good people for sure, but like a boat, when you get a few holes no matter how sound the rest of the structure is you are going to sink, or like a plane when you get a hole in the fabric of one wing you're going to have a bad day. The RCMP is not looked upon as an agency built of individuals but as an organization, as an entity.

Why are they not looked upon as an agency built of individuals, well, it comes down to their indoctrination and training. Theoretically two different officers when presented with the same situation should deal with the situation in the same manner. They make decisions on the fly but essentially they are SOP monkeys with a little bit of wiggle room on the decision making but by in large they have to do things 'by the book.' therefore since they are all basing their actions out of the 'same' book their actions should be the same. This is why it is okay to group them together as an entity rather than as a group of individuals.

You are a hypocrite. On one hand you argue that society should be free to impose limitations on freedoms of minorities (re: homosexual marriage debate) yet on the other you deny that we should be able to, as a whole, decide we don't like the actions of the RCMP and make changes to their model. In fact you argued up and down that the majority of society should be able to dominate any charter issue, yet when it is obvious that the majority of society is no okay with what the RCMP did in van you argue that we should have no say. That makes me laugh, selective empowerment eh mcrit? what a joke.

[mcrit]

MCRIT

When there is a crack in the dam do you say "oh look at that little crack"

Or do you say

"Oh holey shit, this dam is fucked"

I say "Let's patch the crack" instead of "Let's curse at the dam".

So, you agree that these cops need to be 'taken to task' and 'answer for their actions'

Yep, these cops. No need to take a dump on all cops.

MCRIT, those 'less than ten' examples were the ones I remember from the past year. There are more that I could cite and these are just the ones WE KNOW ABOUT, and were significant enough for me to remember.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt by an order of magnitude. If you want to readdress the issue get a more precise number and I'll revisit it.

Crime is up pretty much everywhere in BC every year. More cops come online but they can't seem to get out ahead of the criminals, in fact it seems they are becoming more impotent by the year. The RCMP has gutted the police force in many rural areas where the drug dealers and organized crime figures have virtual free reign, and where most of these organizations have key infrastructure, but oh no, they're doing a wonderful job.

Again, not the fault of rank and file cops. See my comments regarding the court system. There may very well be a lack of police presence in rural BC. At worst that is the fault of the RCMP's upper management (not rank and file) and is probably tied to budget limitations.

Why are they not looked upon as an agency built of individuals, well, it comes down to their indoctrination and training. Theoretically two different officers when presented with the same situation should deal with the situation in the same manner. ........ This is why it is okay to group them together as an entity rather than as a group of individuals.

That's weak. Theoretically bees can't fly, communisim is a great system, and the free market economy will make us all rich. Sometimes cogs slip. The solution is to fix the cogs, not piss all over the machine.

You are a hypocrite. On one hand you argue that society should be free to impose limitations on freedoms of minorities (re: homosexual marriage debate) yet on the other you deny that we should be able to, as a whole, decide we don't like the actions of the RCMP and make changes to their model. In fact you argued up and down that the majority of society should be able to dominate any charter issue, yet when it is obvious that the majority of society is no okay with what the RCMP did in van you argue that we should have no say. That makes me laugh, selective empowerment eh mcrit? what a joke.

You're grasping dude. The argument that a society can define itself anyway it wants via it's consititution in no way contradicts the position that it is foolish to tar all cops because of the actions of a few.

[Jastapilot]

Boosted, the cops aren't as bad as you think. Yes, there's a few bad apples, but I guarantee you they are the vast minority.

Ronjeremy, the cops aren't as good as you think. Some cops @#$! up. It's the @#$!-ups that are getting protected by their peers that are pissing people off. It is the case with Diezanski.

also, Ron:

Police do not go into a situation when they know the person is being violent, and the man in YVR was, and start at the bottom. They assess the information given by the 911 callers as they are responding and then reassess the situation once on scene, using current behaviour and the information given by callers. Then they react accordingly, which investigations have said they did in YVR.

Jastapilot, the recommendations are valid. I won't say that article is competely wrong except one paragraph caught my eye.

quote]What appears to be the main culprit in the death of the Polish man was that he began struggling with the shock of the taser, leading the police to assume he was still resisting arrest, which in turn caused them to more aggressively seek to restrain him. This undoubtedly did not allow him to catch his breath, and he suffered further trauma from the restraint.

[/quote]


It's all there on the video, the second the RCMP showed up, he backed off and was trying to calm down. His hands were up, his head was down, and I'd say that's pretty much the universal body language for "you doods are in charge". I say again the cops never gave him a chance. I also say that the cops planned to taser him before they even confronted him. That evidence is also on the video. "Can I taser him?"

This is entirely possible. If true, then a subject being restrained who seems to be resisting will be held with more force. It's truely sad that it had an unfortunate outcome, but if this is the case the officers did nothing wrong in restraining a person who appeared to be resisting.

If that is true, that the cops mistakenly thought he was still resisting, then they were ignorant of how their weapon works, and should not have been armed as such. Blame stupidity, blame improper training, doesn't matter, the result is the same. The taser is not supposed to be used they way some cops have been using it. It's only one step down from guaranteed lethal force, aka a gun. The taser CAN be lethal, so why are so many cops using it so they don't have to actually do proper police work?

Don't get me wrong, I am trying very hard to understand the cops point of view, but in this killing, I just don't see it. I have friends and family who are proud and professional members, and I see this fiasco as an embarrassment to the RCMP and should be treated as such, not swept under the rug.

[Cat Driver]

I have friends and family who are proud and professional members, and I see this fiasco as an embarrassment to the RCMP and should be treated as such, not swept under the rug.

And that is exactly what the RCMP is trying to do.

Watching the three days of questioning of the first RCMP officer will be the best example of their arrogance and blind sticking to the no accountability game plan that is so evident.

His last few words show his true mindset.

He did no wrong and would do the same thing again if he had it all to do over.

[Jastapilot]

If they're too stubborn, or stupid to be embarrassed, I'll be embarrassed for them.

[BoostedNihilist]

I know every officer in my area and many of them completely disagree with what is happening with regards to the YVR incident and those who don't are know bootlickers and brownnosers

What is your experience with the RCMP?

I gave you the benefit of the doubt by an order of magnitude. If you want to readdress the issue get a more precise number and I'll revisit it.

This just shows your weak grasp of this issue. How would we even know when transgressions occur. When they do the RCMP just investigates themselves, finds some document that says they acted within their authority and nothing comes of it. The fact that the force in general hides behind these rules and regulations pretty much ties them together when something bad does happen. If you can't understand that if the RCMP as an entity wants to be seen as a prestigious organization they have to act like one then well, I guess you're pretty much shoehorned into your own acceptable ignorance.

Again, not the fault of rank and file cops. See my comments regarding the court system. There may very well be a lack of police presence in rural BC. At worst that is the fault of the RCMP's upper management (not rank and file) and is probably tied to budget limitations.

The RCMP is a law enforcement SYSTEM and when one part of the SYSTEM fails then the entire SYSTEM fails. All of these levels of law enforcement are interdependent. Therefore I see the silence of the rank and file members as complicity in the overall failure of the system. The fact that the rank and file members aren't screaming from the rooftops that they want these four assholes tarred and feathered to me is complicity in the failure of the system. It is reinforced by guys like wrongjeremey who are clearly members of the force who come on here and defend the indefensible.

That's weak. Theoretically bees can't fly, communisim is a great system, and the free market economy will make us all rich. Sometimes cogs slip. The solution is to fix the cogs, not piss all over the machine.

hahaha, this really made me laugh. You hang your argument on one word? Okay, then remove it, my argument should have been made without the word theoretically but since your argument is falling apart I see your willingness to resort to simple semantics as an admission of a failed argument.

The point is, there should be no liars, criminals, or abusers in the RCMP whatsoever and the fact that they keep slipping in through the cracks indicates either a systemic disregard for personal character or piss poor screening. Either way, when we see time and time again cops involved in high profile wrongdoings eventually we will sway to generalizations. We swing towards broad generalizations because we can't know who we are dealing with. If all cops were upstanding citizens then we wouldn't have an argument, but merely the fact that some cops are not we are entitled to wonder about the rest.

In the end, if the RCMP wants my respect they have to do a hell of a lot better to earn it. I don't respect anything because I am told to I respect organizations and individuals because they earn it.

A worker at a LADA factory goes to work every day and does his best to assemble a car. All the trim screws and bolts he put in are tight and torqued properly, a lada is a still a shitty car and lada is still a shitty company it doesn't matter how damned well those doing their job within the factory do their job it only matters that the end result is shitty. And we end up not buying ladas because they are shitty. I don't want my tax money buying ladas, I want a dependable toyota thank you very much. period, end of (run-on) sentence.

[BoostedNihilist]

You're right, I do serve the public. I will put myself in harms way to serve them, and have. Just as I must be accountable to the public, I expect the public to listen to the reasons and try to understand why I do what I do. I don't expect everyone to agree, but I also don't expect to be labelled a liar, criminal or abuser for doing my job. You cannot judge what you don't understand, just as I can't. And if, in the course of my job I break the law, I know I will be held responsible for my actions and I fully agree, there can be no cowboys in a job that has the power police have.

See this is the thing. You are not accountable to the public at all. You are accountable to noone. WHen you do do something wrong you call up your buddy and he comes and makes sure he can't find any wrongdoing. Society is not a part of the process.

Ron, follow me here.

The vast majority of civilians are law abiding and have never been arrested. Logic then dictates that the majority of society can tell the difference between right and wrong. In this case the majority of society sees the actions of these officers as wrong. Yet, you are telling us, the vast majority of society, that we in fact do not know the difference between right and wrong, we are children who clearly can't understand what we are seeing when it is put there right in front of our face. Well, I take that as a personal insult, and I suspect that the majority of society does too.

When you tell us that we 'can't have an opinion because we "don't understand"' we as society hear "@#$! off" You cling to your hank average image but come on here amongst your societal peers and sepearte yourself because you have some profound understanding of right and wrong. You are telling us that your judgment is superior and we as society have no part in the debate. So we hear "@#$! off"

That is fine I guess but the problem is society pays for you. You are a servant of society. It is always interesting the conflict which arises when society as a whole becomes subservient to their civil servants. When we see abuse, ANY abuse, we begin to wonder who exactly is in control. Society can be controlled for awhile and the erosion of the system does take time. But when the time comes and society decides that they want their control back, heads literally roll.

You telling me to "@#$! off" time and time again makes me not like you very much. I am sure that there are others on this board that agree, and those who don't. But be aware that even a supporter like MCRIT can see the wrongdoing here, and while he supports you based on your hank average composition, eventually with enough instances of abuse even his opinion might be swayed. You are sewing the seeds of erosion which will eventually see us come for our power and I hope to whatever is out there that this comes in my time.

So, you see fit to label us as incapable and essentially ignorant so I see no problem in labeling the entire force as a joke filled with liars, criminals and abusers. You don't want us to generalize let us into the process and give society a voice. Until that happens you're banging your head against the wall and merely perpetuating the perception, and baseless or not, if society sees the RCMP as a joke of an organization it does not matter if you are or not because even if perception is not based on reality having the citizens thinking you are a bunch of dirtbags does not do the RCMP any good whatsoever.