West Wind Pilots Reinstated

[Liberator]

I don't know what was at the root of the WW dismissals. And to be quite sure, I don't want to go there, on either side of the issue. However the points you have raised certainly underscore the need for better conflict resolution than what happened there. By promoting a union they are diametrically opposing to what has been the "norm" at WestWind.

Swordfish - The norm is over. This management team has chosen it's preferred path. They have taken 25 years to decide upon their values.

Some of these employees that were let go were emploeyed for between 5 to 11 years. They have been working towards this.

Interestingly, and with more arrogance WWA senior management has just terminated and utilized defamation against another senior ATR Captain in the last 2 weeks for zero reason. Now the 5th complaint against West Wind in short time. This includes the fact that the CIRB has just found them guilty with the past terminations of 3 pilots. (see here for details http://www.thestarphoenix.com/Business/ ... ry.html )

Wake up people... Wake up West Wind... Wake up aviation in Canada...

Familyguy - great post

Get involved in your workplace. If you do not protect yourself, who will? What is your future? Who will look out for your best interests? Who will take care of your family? Let us work with industry and business to make this a successful and safe career.

It is easy to do nothing. That is what they feed upon, apathy. Do not give up that!

Get involved and make a democracy work.

[swordfish]

Cool and informative reply, family guy. For a "Family guy", you sure seem to have your finger on the pulse of this "Negotiating Process" stuff, so I assume you have "been there, done that".

I am not opposed so much to unions, as the adversarial combative approach to negotiations. We (joe public) see this repeatedly when the union revs up the membership in the pre-negotiation phase, and sets the tone (and content, of course) for the upcoming "war". Additionally, I would be disenfranchised to 'have to' go on strike even though I voted against it, as I need my regular income from my job. I am not independently wealthy as many airline pilots seems to be with assets and houses up the ying-yang. I struggle from one month to the next having been a poor money manger all my life...

Your quote:

This hollywood mentality of guys with bats breaking knee caps really is rather old

would indicate that you weren't anywhere near Yellowknife when the Giant miners went on strike. Everything you heard - and plenty you didn't - is true. Emotions were like a perpetual volcano, fear was a household word, unmitigated violence was an everyday occurrence, and reason and common-sense were terms that had yet to be defined in this usually 'civilized' community.

It all ended when Roger Warren laid and triggered an underground bomb, killing 9 of his colleagues and scabs.

A black mark on our otherwise colourful history. Perhaps you can understand my aversion to unions...

[swordfish]

liberator, I am genuinely puzzled at these "terminations with zero reason". Are you suggesting that WWA management did not learn from their previous experience? And as for terminating someone, (having been a Chief Pilot for several years) there is ALWAYS a reason, regardless of how trivial, mindless, or ill-advised it is.

One thing I learned as CP was that to fire someone, you had to have a documented trail (with some exceptions) and for reasons that had previously been problem area where the employee had failed to, or refused to, modify behavioral or performance values that the company expects from him (her) - that were clearly outlined in previous discussions with him.

I realize it may be inappropriate for you to comment further on this specific instance, but if management hasn't learned the lessons I did (after all, it was my management who taught them to me), why would they entertain another wrongful dismissal suit immediately after the first one?

[Driving Rain]

Cool and informative reply, family guy. For a "Family guy", you sure seem to have your finger on the pulse of this "Negotiating Process" stuff, so I assume you have "been there, done that".

I am not opposed so much to unions, as the adversarial combative approach to negotiations. We (joe public) see this repeatedly when the union revs up the membership in the pre-negotiation phase, and sets the tone (and content, of course) for the upcoming "war". Additionally, I would be disenfranchised to 'have to' go on strike even though I voted against it, as I need my regular income from my job. I am not independently wealthy as many airline pilots seems to be with assets and houses up the ying-yang. I struggle from one month to the next having been a poor money manger all my life...

Your quote:

This hollywood mentality of guys with bats breaking knee caps really is rather old

would indicate that you weren't anywhere near Yellowknife when the Giant miners went on strike. Everything you heard - and plenty you didn't - is true. Emotions were like a perpetual volcano, fear was a household word, unmitigated violence was an everyday occurrence, and reason and common-sense were terms that had yet to be defined in this usually 'civilized' community.

It all ended when Roger Warren laid and triggered an underground bomb, killing 9 of his colleagues and scabs.

A black mark on our otherwise colourful history. Perhaps you can understand my aversion to unions...

So if we follow your logic than we can assume that pilots & minors unions are the same.
I guess the Shriners and the Hells Angels are the same because they both ride Harleys.

[ifr]

[quote="swordfish"
The Chinese have an expression that I have soberly regarded for some time: Be careful what you wish for, as you may get it.[/quote]


I would think that democracy wasn't on the Chinese wish list then! There's also the saying - there's nothing to fear but fear itself.

More later when work doesn't beckon.

[Donald]

One thing I learned as CP was that to fire someone, you had to have a documented trail (with some exceptions)

No you don't. Just call it a layoff, due to an economic downturn, and then go merrily on your way training their replacement.

[swordfish]

So if we follow your logic than we can assume that pilots & minors unions are the same.
I guess the Shriners and the Hells Angels are the same because they both ride Harleys.

Yeah, I guess that's pretty good fuzzy logic...

[swordfish]

the Donald said:

Just call it a layoff, due to an economic downturn, and then go merrily on your way training their replacement.

Massive headaches if you follow that route...HRDC, EI, lawyers, media, other crew, ... management...

[FamilyGuy]

Swordfish I hear ya and get it - the Giant Mine was a bad deal all around.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2003/09/ ... 30929.html

However, I wouldn't necessarily lay all the blame on the "Union" proper - its not like the Union organized the bombing (I hope). The Union - meaning the members that make it up - likely did have a role in the escalation of events. That I should think is more about the individuals and human nature than whether they are organized or not. Lots of bloody conflicts all over the world about working conditions that have nothing to do with "unions".

One more tidbit about strikes and lockouts - they don't have to happen just because the CA expired. Deadlines like a CA expiration date are good in that they make the parties focus on coming to an agreement. However, it is also somewhat commonplace for negotiations to continue long after the CA expires - as long as both sides think progress is being made. I know of a few that went 2-3 years after the expiry date - for other reasons though

Also some industries have strike/lockout blackout periods like when Parliment in not in session. The Gov wants to be there in case they think the strike or lockout is getting out of control or unfair and they WILL table back to work legislation.

It's really up to all 3 sides to see where it goes - Union, Employer and Gov.

[SaskStyle]

the Donald said:

Just call it a layoff, due to an economic downturn, and then go merrily on your way training their replacement.

Massive headaches if you follow that route...HRDC, EI, lawyers, media, other crew, ... management...

That's not accurate swordfish.

The selective "layoffs" are pretty common. At least they were in the company I used to work for.

The justification behind the notice was, "seasonal staffing."

However...when you see someone you've been working with for over 5 years let go while buddy that's been there for six months is somehow still collecting a paycheque...you start to seriously question the term "layoff."

[officejet]

Swordfish...

The more I read your posts...the more I start to think that you might be (or if you're not anymore, might have been) a chief pilot that I would have respected and enjoyed flying for.

However, I think this statement is a bit misleading...

And as for terminating someone, (having been a Chief Pilot for several years) there is ALWAYS a reason, regardless of how trivial, mindless, or ill-advised it is.

Of course there is always a "reason." Is your reason justification for dismissal though?
1) Trying to form a union. (The Labour Board of Canada decided no)

2) With regards to this latest firing...

I realize it may be inappropriate for you to comment further on this specific instance, but if management hasn't learned the lessons I did (after all, it was my management who taught them to me), why would they entertain another wrongful dismissal suit immediately after the first one?

Sounds like Liberator does have some inside access to the whole incident...and you're probably right that there is a limit to how much he can comment...however, I'm guessing that when he said zero reason...he was implying zero justification.

A significant difference in interpretation, no?

And why would they entertain another wrongful dismissal suit? This might be a stretch, but basic human nature shows itself at all levels. Even at the levels where you'd expect those to act with maturity. But when you've gotten away with something over and over again (ie getting rid of "trouble" employees)....in simple terms...it's a bad habit that's tough to break.

Are you suggesting that WWA management did not learn from their previous experience?

As crazy as it sounds...I think Liberator is in fact suggesting exactly that. If anything, I think that is a clear example of the arrogance that exists at the management level of that company.

Having followed this with interest from the beginning...there were comments regarding that the decisions made were coming from a position above the chief pilot's. If there was/is any truth...truly a sad situation for a company that was so well respected it was listed in the company of Top 50 managed. Or maybe it's more of an indication of the ridiculousness of such "pat each other on the back" awards.

Based on what I've picked up from the article in the Star Phoenix...and the rumours that the Labour Board took only one day to reach their decision in what is normally a three-four day event...I think it is safe to say that WestWind's management clearly made some errors in judgement in their decision making.

One thing I learned as CP was that to fire someone, you had to have a documented trail (with some exceptions) and for reasons that had previously been problem area where the employee had failed to, or refused to, modify behavioral or performance values that the company expects from him (her) - that were clearly outlined in previous discussions with him.

If there were any justification in the dismissals, I'm assuming there would have been a longer "trial."

[swordfish]

That's quite a compliment, OJ. Thank you.

My knowledge of WWA management is dated obviously. The people I knew personally in management positions were not impulsive or intolerant. They were communicative, approachable, and well liked and respected in the organization. Things must have changed.

To me - and I am too tolerant where crew is concerned - firing (termination, "long-term layoff", dismissal, invitation to resign) is the option of last choice. If you consider strictly the financial resources you have already incurred getting the employee onto the line as a line pilot, you run into several times the salary you have already paid him. Then there is the "headache value" as you are trying to redirect his averse personality or character traits, correct personality-driven performance errors, retraining skill deficiencies, and trying to figure out how to use his strengths while correcting his weaknesses.

If he is incorrigible, you have to release him. But the way I looked at it was: Well at least I gave it my best (I promise to be smarter and more circumspect in the future...). The job was made easier by staying on top of things, nipping things in the bud (procation), keeping everyone in the loop - with reasons for decisions, and retaining the communication lines. It was my philosophy that by following this model, morale was kept high, and the problems WWA appears to face, do not arise, or are trivialized.

I would have thought that in the 21st century of enlightenment that in many of the medium-sized organizations this philosophy would be prevalent, rather than isolated. While I have carefully read your post, it is still difficult for me to absorb that they would fire someone in a cavalier manner that can only invite legal repercussions.

[Cleared to FL370]

Congratulations to the pilots on getting re-instated. It is a shame to see that there are still companies out there that forget there are laws in this country protecting employees, and there legal right to organize if they so choose.

Westwind pilots..
Good luck organizing your Union, looks like you guys need one..

[SaskStyle]

For those that are still against a union...or for the supporters that could use a little more fuel for their fire....

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/02/2 ... wsuit.html

It's naieve to think that your skills and safe operating procedures will keep you in the clear for the rest of your career.

(waiting for Cat to disagree and the resultant lecture )

Your union should provide legal aid if it became necessary.

I think these lawsuits and legal witchhunts will only gain momentum...

[Driving Rain]

http://www.allbusiness.com/transportati ... 675-1.html

AIRLINE INDUSTRY INFORMATION-(C)1997-2007 M2 COMMUNICATIONS LTD

Colgan Air Inc, a regional airline and wholly owned subsidiary of Pinnacle Airlines Corp (NasdaqGM:PNCL) has announced that its pilots have rejected a bid by the Air Line Pilots Association to unionise.

According to Colgan Air, the representation results were counted at the National Mediation Board in Washington, D.C., USA on 21 August 2007.

The airline said it respected its pilots and the choice they have made. It confirmed the company will now turn its focus to the growth and opportunities it has planned and to creating more jobs and boosting prosperity for the company.

Then, 16 months later...

http://www.marketwire.com/press-release ... 31684.html

Colgan Air, Inc. Pilots Approve Union Bid
MEMPHIS, TN--(Marketwire - December 18, 2008) - Pinnacle Airlines Corp. (NASDAQ: PNCL), parent company of Colgan Air Inc., a regional airline with headquarters in Manassas, Va., announced that Colgan Pilots have approved a bid to be represented by the Air Line Pilots Association. The representation results were announced yesterday at the National Mediation Board in Washington, D.C.
"We respect our pilots and, given the choice they have made, expect to work with them toward the mutual goal of growth and prosperity for all employees and our Airline, and quality service to our Customers," said George A. (Buddy) Casey, President of Colgan Air, Inc.

About Colgan Air

Colgan Air Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Pinnacle Airlines Corp., is a regional airline operating as Continental Connection, United Express and US Airways Express. Launched in 1991, Colgan Air offers 300+ daily flights to 55 cities in 17 states, Canada and the District of Columbia. Colgan is recognized for the exceptional service levels it provides its Customers and is a leader in providing air service to small and medium-sized cities in the United States. Colgan operates 51 Saab 340-B and 15 Bombardier Q-400 turboprop regional airliners and has hub operations in Boston, Houston, New York, and Washington, D.C. Colgan Air employs more than 1,300 People and transports two million Customers annually.

About Pinnacle Airlines Corp.

Pinnacle Airlines Corp. (NASDAQ: PNCL), an airline holding company, is the parent company of Pinnacle Airlines, Inc. and Colgan Air, Inc. Pinnacle Airlines, Inc. operates a fleet of 139 regional jets in the United States, Canada, the Bahamas, Mexico, U.S. Virgin Islands, and Turks and Caicos Islands as Northwest Airlink and Delta Connection. Colgan Air, Inc. operates a fleet of 51 regional turboprops as Continental Connection, United Express and US Airways Express. Pinnacle Airlines Corp. operating units fly over 1,000 daily flights and transport 13 million passengers a year to 144 cities and towns in North America. The corporate headquarters is located in Memphis, Tennessee. Airport hub operations are located in Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, Newark, Washington Dulles, Houston, LaGuardia, Memphis and Minneapolis. Visit http://www.pncl.com for more information.

[Astro]

Really guys...

What would Sully do?

[Widow]

Heard a rumour ... has one of those terminated pilots been terminated again after being reinstated???

[Roper]

Heard a rumour ... has one of those terminated pilots been terminated again after being reinstated???

Widow, your quote, "They must find it difficult ....Those who have taken authority as the truth rather than truth as
the authority" - (Gerald Massey ) certainly holds true here.


It is my understanding that there were five pilots let go since fall. Three of those were reinstated by CIRB while the other two are still 'pending'. Now, do you think that those three were given much support upon their reinstatement by management -maybe better known as "those who have taken authority as the truth" -and while CIRB is processing the union? Yah, right. If those pilots qualified, along their professional path, to work up to become an ATR Captain then one knows that they are very capable. We also know that likely the last 5 -6 months have been hellish for them and their families. If the proper support was given during reinstatement, they should easily have been back flying. If not, blame should fall on those responsible for their reintegration back into work.

In other threads you contribute to, you (and others) note that many pilots who try to make the profession better, often end up losing their careers over the process. Some state that these are often the ones who should be hired first - but this is unfortunately not the case. Seems more like management wanted these pilots gone (obviously) and, along the process,to try and destroy their careers as well. Very sad if blackballing occur(s/red) and future employers have either believed it and/or let it pass.

Finally, to answer your question, I believe that management has, once again, terminated two of those three reinstated. The circumstances may not necessarily fall under the 'support during reinstatement' category - more under the, 'now I clearly see why the pilots wanted a union in there' category.

Congratulations, Widow, and good luck in all of your endeavors to make aviation a safer industry... and to change things from 'authority as truth' to 'truth as authority'. Wish there were more like you. Now, perhaps cast your eye to these WestWind pilots and perhaps give them some of your backup and support. They are/were trying, too.

[Widow]

This is without question the plight of the "whistleblower", large or small. This is just one of a myriad of examples of what needs protection as SMS is ultimately adopted into all sectors of aviation.

To be sure Roper, I will be thinking about this while I am here in Ottawa, and I'm sure, when I am home ...

[Roper]

This is without question the plight of the "whistleblower", large or small. This is just one of a myriad of examples of what needs protection as SMS is ultimately adopted into all sectors of aviation.

To be sure Roper, I will be thinking about this while I am here in Ottawa, and I'm sure, when I am home ...

Right you are - a current and good example of what's needed and why. If these pilots do not find the support from those they try to help, the result will be that many 'future' builders of the industry will go back to hiding under a rock - too afraid to put themselves, family, fellow workers, and friends through this kind of fallout. And, we all know, that this is just what that 'authority' is counting on since it has worked so well in the past.

Once again, Widow, well done and may you have all the ears of Ottawa at your disposal.

[crazyflight]

Actually, TWO of the pilots reinstated have since been terminated again. They failed to meet the recertification requirements and were subsequently released from WWA.

[ifr]

Actually, TWO of the pilots reinstated have since been terminated again. They failed to meet the recertification requirements and were subsequently released from WWA.

Read the three to four statements above. You must've missed those. Now, if those two pilots, after the ringer they were put through, weren't set up in a manner to help support their success, you know that they were set up in a manner to fail. If they weren't given proper instruction and support - a full initial would've been the most perfect after their situation - then likely it was a more hostile 'do as little as possible while trying to appease the CIRB's instructions'. As far as I know, the third pilot's recertification was done in a different and more impartial manner - then success.

Any party that went with the other two pilots should have been an impartial participator, as well as the other person doing the ride with them. Otherwise, you have a dynamite mixure of emotions and history. Eg. If the CP that had (supposedly) resigned over some of this drama went along, how impartial is this? And, even a different TC to oversee and not the 'regular', who has a history with both the pilots and the company, would have been a good option. As Roper said, if they made it far enough in their fairly lengthy careers, to pass certification and recertification many times before - as captains and FOs on this plane (and others) then they are very capable to do it again. Now, what extenuating circumstances could the management arrange to sway the outcome in their favour? They knew it and they did it. There's a lot more than what your last sentence states, Crazyflight. This wasn't a regular recertification under regular circumstances. Other coworkers should easily be able to see past this ruse that management has pulled and be extremely grateful for a union coming in to support them and their job. Stand by these pilots, thank them for going to the wall for you, and support them.

If there were former WW employees that have been treated in a similar manner, and/or also have been terminated under questionable circumstances, please tell your story - anonymously if you can't bring yourself to put your name forward. I'm sure this has happened many times over the 25 year history they so proudly advertise.

[crazyflight]

IFR, I did not miss any of the posts above. I was not even stating an opinion...merely stating fact in that two of the pilots have been removed from service. As for thanking them for 'going to the wall' for the West Wind pilots, I do have an opinion on that subject. Those pilots were quite ungrateful to an organisation that was trying their best to make changes and improve the situation with which pilots had expressed concern. The company did not make changes lightly, nor did they rush into any changes. However, while the pilots were gone the first time, changes were implemented and the company was actively looking for feedback at the time of reinstatement to determine what changes were working and which changes required further review in order to make the best possible working environment at WWA.

[ifr]

IFR, I did not miss any of the posts above. I was not even stating an opinion...merely stating fact in that two of the pilots have been removed from service. As for thanking them for 'going to the wall' for the West Wind pilots, I do have an opinion on that subject. Those pilots were quite ungrateful to an organisation that was trying their best to make changes and improve the situation with which pilots had expressed concern. The company did not make changes lightly, nor did they rush into any changes. However, while the pilots were gone the first time, changes were implemented and the company was actively looking for feedback at the time of reinstatement to determine what changes were working and which changes required further review in order to make the best possible working environment at WWA.

You are obviously now stating your opinion. You do say that 'the company did not make changes lightly, nor did they rush into any changes'. I'm sure many will agree with you there. I had heard that it was several years, in fact. Interesting that the changes began being implemented while the pilots were gone the first time .... and while the company knew that union cards were being signed. Not like that didn't influence the changes! Read what you're saying.

[crazyflight]

Well, IFR...once again your ignorance becomes your undoing. I am working within WWA, and I can explain to you FIRST HAND that it was not a two year process. It was several months, to be sure. A great many of the pilots went to meeting after meeting with management to express our concerns and come up with a group solution to the problems that were brought forward. If you would like to speak intelligently on the subject, then you would have to actually have been party to the activities and discussions which precipitated this whole situation. Dropping your two cents worth when you are not even involved just shows how you are letting your mouth precede your intellect.