Jazz Question

[Johnny#5]

Given that Jazz seems to have a tendency to lay-off during hard times, do you think this current hiring "spree" is going to hold? Is it wise for someone to leave another job for Jazz right now in these economic conditions? (they're low salary aside)

I just wonder if things will still be secure for a new hire when oil prices start climbing again? Or if/when the recession deepens?

Thanks

[WetJet]

Dude, your info is a bit off.

1. Jazz has not laid off any pilots so they don't have a tendancy to do so.

2. This spree will not be as long 40-60ish (sombody can give a more accurate number) as the 500+ that were hired over the last few years.

3. If you currently fly to places that start with "Fort", or "Port" or end with "Lake" or if they have a nursing station, I would recomend going to Jazz. The pay might not be fantastic, but you can travel the world and have a decent schedule.

3. This is aviaiton, nothing is secure. Jazz depends on AC and even if AC survives the next few years, it will could be a bloodbath in 2015 if Georgian, CMA or others are given the chance to bid on Dash 8 flying.

[vortac]

I know. Georgian, CMA have already quadrupled the the order for peanuts to be delivered just in time for 2015.

[Smitty]

1. Jazz has not laid off any pilots so they don't have a tendancy to do so.

Jazz has furloughed in the past. Some Pilots recieving layoff notices and getting them recinded three times before finally getting the axe, putting more stress into an already stressful situation.

Johnny#5, make the move that's best for you. But make sure you have some funds set aside just in case Jazz lays off....again.

[FL020]

The pay might not be the best??? Give your head a shake WetJet. If your single, and pay a 800$ mortgage, then maybe, just maybe you could afford to "travel" the world on standby, but if you have a family, and a kid or two??? Are you going to be reaping the benefits of "travelling" the world and living like a single man/woman? the 2000 take home is not even close to being worth the so called glamourours Jazz flying job. There's only one reason for NO ONE bitching there about the pay: All the junior pilot all got hired with less than 2000 hrs, ( even 250!!!) and were used to getting paid shit wages. Now they're chasing iron, got a fancy new uniform to sport, and livin the high life (if you want to call it that...)

OH and I almost forgot, unless you're in YYZ residing in a appt, you won't see an upgrade for what...-- oh 15 years??!?!

the Glamour, ohhhhh the Glamour...

[Johnny#5]

Thanks for the input...its nice to read different perspectives on the matter.

Just as a note, and in case some know who I am on here...its really not me thats looking into Jazz, just someone I know who didnt think to come on here for advice nor do they have a username anyway.

One of the big things with Jazz too, is that you don't know where you have move until you've actually started ground school! I know its not the only company like that....but that kinda sucks!

[Major Bedhead]

Without getting too personal let me throw a couple of cents.

I'm not sure if its just vogue to crap on Jazz since it's affiliated with AC, but let me tell you a quick tale of woe.

Two years ago I worked for a Quebec company who had me sign a two year bond of $24000 that had me flying night cargo to Wilmington Ohio on one of two Convair 580's out of Montreal Dorval.

This in the peak season, that is when the other charter pilots were otherwise occupied had me either leaving at 19h or 21h for a two and a half hour flight to the DHL base then to sleep in a room ... yes a room in a trailer on the airport property.

That meant if any of the ABX or DHL birds had a run up to do it shook the whole room and if the second crew when they arrived were noisy your precious three hours of sleep till you had to get back up and fly the five cans back to YUL was screwed and if you managed to land the bloody thing ... your drive home was the most dangerous part of the day.

No joke ... after thirteen months of overnight cargo five days a week, there were times when I would check the road signs to find out if I was on the way home or on the way to the airport.

One of the senior fellows I flew with was Ex QuebecEx, Can3000 and Jetsgo ... he told me in a flash of honesty - if I could get in with either Jazz or mainline, do it in a heartbeat .... flying the CV580 was fun, but with no security at the end and the horrible sched that included being called out at a days notice ... when I turned 50 I'd be screwed as he was.

I took his advice and even though tied to the bond for another year I applied Jazz with over 3500 hours.

I passed the interview, sim and medical and was hired in 2007.

Fought the bond over a technicality as the original company had laid me off and that was a negating point in the original contract ... spent over six thousand dollars on lawyers and on the first judgement on a wording issue went to the bank the next morning and got a loan to pay out the rest of the bond.

Not that I didn't want to fight it further, but I just couldn't commit to the open ended spiel the lawyer was giving.

So I became a "Jazz pilot" .... if AvCanada was to be believed, the scourge of the industry ...

Well ... upon signing ... my base salary was $5000 above that what I was getting for sitting in the dark eating soup at 0130 hrs somewhere over Buffalo in an aircraft that was certified in 1958 ... no I'm not kidding CGNRL has seriously grey hair ...

And in the court proceedings it's come out now that to sit right seat pays only $25000 since I left .. with a two year punitive bond.

Punitive because there is no sim work involved in training, merely five odd hours and couple of flights done on repositioning from YUL to Mirabel ... at least that is what I did ... Groundschool was a five day skim course with the manual open in front.

And for those who say whoa what a bitter a-hole and I must be lying ... I built the KLN90b course that is currently given for the poor saps who have to pick their way through wx and decide if the alternate dispatched by a freshly faced college student corresponds to the reality that they are faced with.

So when I arrive an hour early for a jet that has been dispatched under heavy maintenance ok, with wx done by Aerodata, and departure restrictions that are manual driven, not dispatch ...

No cowl covers to put on shutdown, no awry smiles telling me that someone couldn't make it and he had to shat on a pile of Gazettes, airplanes that work, if they don't we cancel the flight, wx info that is current on departure and if things fall apart ... well we just don't go there.

Two years in I am making more money than a Captain on the previous company I worked for and after having the chance to bid and receive scheds that give on average sixteen days off a month, I did the logical step of looking for work overseas.

For me .. and only for me, it makes sense to keep where I am ... I have three young kids who I see more than I would if I worked any 9-5 job, I fly equipment that is maintained as well as if I did it myself and the pilot group I work with have all been fantastic.

To make the circle complete, my initial instructor who taught me to fly C150's I flew with a few months ago.

I'm sure many people will berate what I've written, but I don't like time zones, and to see the kids is important.

The flying I do is fun and challenging and in honesty I am better off than if I had stayed where I was wishing things would get better.

I can't speak for anyone other than myself ...

[AstroNOT]

Major Bedhead: +1

All the junior pilot all got hired with less than 2000 hrs, ( even 250!!!) and were used to getting paid shit wages. Now they're chasing iron, got a fancy new uniform to sport, and livin the high life (if you want to call it that...)

Actually I had over 4000 hrs when I started at Jazz, as did many of us. I decided to accept a substantially lower salary in favor of a better lifestyle. I am pleased with my decision.

Chasing Iron? Hardly. There are "heavier" gigs around...

the Glamour, ohhhhh the Glamour...

lol...grow up.

[mbav8r]

I had just under 6000 hrs, with 12 years as a pilot, cheif pilot, ops manager, etc... hired mid 2007. No regrets. The thing being left out here is most 703,704 operators will screw you given the chance. Especially when they have their pick of pilots standing in line to be abused. Before this last round of hiring I was seriously thinking about going back to school and getting the heck out of aviation all together.
Jazz is a great place to be and even worst case, after 2015 I still wont regret it!!!

[Johnny#5]

Right on...it seems what Jazz offers is an escape from 'Mickey Mouse' operations...

...and Major Bedhead good for you - nobody is going to slam you for going to a company that makes you happy and allows you to see your family more. Thats what its all about right?

[teacher]

Got hired on with 3000 hours. Being at Jazz is the happiest that I've ever been in aviation. Sure it has it's issues sometimes but pilots are notorious for complaining and not being happy. I bitch like the next person on certain days but when it comes down to it I really don't have any reason to move on.

[WetJet]

1. Jazz has not laid off any pilots so they don't have a tendancy to do so.

Jazz has furloughed in the past.

We could go around and around on this, but the reality is that they have not laid off recently and will not be laying off soon. So there is no TENDANCY to lay off.

The pay might not be the best??? Give your head a shake WetJet.

Brotha, you are never going to hear me defend the pay at Jazz. When I quit there I told the President of Flight Operations (Cal) that I was leaving because the money was crap. Like I said, the pay is not the best, nor is it the worst. There are Dash operators like Creebec that pay DH8 Captains and FO's less than Jazz, I can go on.

Johnny#5, I'm sure you can make your own decisions on what's best for you. There are plenty of D-bags on this forum with their own agendas that will try to influence your choises. If you go to Jazz and don't like it, you can leave as Jazz is the biggest feeder to every other major airline in Canada.

[jjj]

Bedhead and friends - excellent posts.

[Frank Castle]

M Bedhead, check your PM.

[CanadianEh]

I'm so jealous reading all these posts. The more I read the more excited I am to start flight training in Sept.

[RFN]

Beating a dead horse...

I applied and was hired with just over 4000hrs, and I too am happier than I have ever been in aviation. Considering I am a commuter, that's saying something.

The pay is not amazing, but I make ALMOST as much as I did as B200 Capt. Then you add the really good per diems, and I am ahead.

[Dark Helmet]

RFN, Major Bedhead, mbav8r, teacher......Good posts!! and +1

There are a couple of things people need to get their heads wrapped around first before looking at Jazz.

1. Jazz is often compared to AC and WJ. Jazz is a Regional Airline, not a Mainline Carrier. A jazz pilot will never make as much as a WJ or AC pilot. period. We fly DH8s and CRJs. With the exception of the 705 (75 seats) we fly 37 - 50 seat airplanes. You should be comparing Jazz to companies that fly similar equipment. When you do, you will find that the conditions, pay, etc, are on par woth each other.

2. Not everyone will be happy at Jazz. However, it does not mean that NO one will be happy at Jazz, everyone is different. Again Jazz is not for everyone and those who were not happy here usually found other jobs partly due to the experience, training, and working environment they got at Jazz.

3. A lot of people like to Bash Jazz. Most of these people (I say this with all do respect) don't work, or have never worked at Jazz and thus don't have a clue of what they are talking about. They ofter regurgitate stuff they hear on this forum, or things they have heard from a friend or a friend of a friend, etc....and they end up blowing things out of proportion.

FYI as per the lastest bid. Most junior Capt in YYC is now 12 years.

A long time? absolutely, however, it is not 15, 20,or 25 years as advertised before.

[Johnny#5]

How many years in are the junior captains in Toronto and Montreal?

[mattedfred]

i'm guessing 8 but maybe less

[Stinky]

There was also the 5 year hiring freeze so the most junior captain was hired just before the freeze. If were lucky and there isn't total economic collapse, widespread famine, anarchy etc. we might see a captain upgrade from the 2005 course within the next year or two.
I'm betting on the former.

[Obbie]

I was hired in one of the very first classes in 2005.

There is no way I will be getting a upgrade in the
next 24 months.

I expect 4 more years minimum if all stays the same.

Thats 7 years for a upgrade. The wait is the same
no matter which side of the freeze you came in on.

Now if our charter department could only manage to
remove their head from their ass, things might accually
speed up a little.

[Johnny#5]

F$ckin industry....I just got laid off today, so maybe I will be applying there.

[WetJet]

Sorry to hear it Johnny#5. My class at Jazz had a guy in the same situation as you. A few weeks on EI and then in at Jazz. If you can get in, Jazz is a decent place to be. Good luck.

[Huge Hammer]

I was hired in one of the very first classes in 2005.

There is no way I will be getting a upgrade in the
next 24 months.

I expect 4 more years minimum if all stays the same.

Thats 7 years for a upgrade. The wait is the same
no matter which side of the freeze you came in on.

Now if our charter department could only manage to
remove their head from their ass, things might accually
speed up a little.

What's up with the charter dept. Didn't they recently hire a new manager?