Ne pas des Francias!!

[Johnny#5]

Guess what....CANADA IS BILINGUAL. Quebec is not its own country, it is a province of CANADA. Which makes it a BILINGUAL PROVINCE. If Quebec wants to be its own country perfect, then we can make Canada a Non-Bilingual country and save us a lot of money. You are part of Canada, and Canada is Bilingual, so Quebec is Bilingual.

Then why would it be the French speaking pilots having to switch language for English speaking pilots? Why don't the English speaking pilot learn French (in this bilingual country) and speak it when flying in Quebec?

You are part of Canada, Canada is bilingual, then be prepared to speak French in a bilingual province or a French province. Why should Roger the PPL learn to speak English for you, when you fly in Quebec? You are the Commercial Pilot, the one earning money to fly. You should be the one doing the Professionnal Development.

...I agree as Canadians we should all know some French and I continue to learn it conversationally, however the above makes little to no sense.

i WOULD be the one doing the "professional development" if ICAO had made French the official language of aviation.

[ornello]

It always makes me smile when this subject pops up.

I had the privilege of learning 4 languages when i grew up. Nothing special just part of the system !! The aviation language in europe is english and will always be english.

Take Switzerland for example: 4 languages!! People fail their PPLs because they fail the english test....how is that for a change ?

Most of us speak swiss german, german, italian, rumantsch, french and the mighty english language !!! Does that mean everytime i am crossing into a different region i have to switch language ? Man i get busy switching every 7 minutes. Is it duable? Yes! Is it the most hilarious thing i have ever heard ? Totally!! At the end we all stick to ENGLISH !!! Makes life so much easier....

[AuxBatOn]

...I agree as Canadians we should all know some French and I continue to learn it conversationally, however the above makes little to no sense.

i WOULD be the one doing the "professional development" if ICAO had made French the official language of aviation.

Until there is a rule in Canadian Regulations saying that every pilot, regardless of the license, shall be proficient in English, you cannot force people to learn and speak English (and you cannot force people to learn and speak French). And I can guarantee you that without a rule, general aviators in Quebec won't learn English, if they don't already speak it, just for aviation. You are the CPL, you are the one earning a living flying. You are the one that should learn French (or the few words you need to know to get an air picture) if you do believe that language issue may come up during one of your flight. Why? Simply because you are the professional and there is no regulation stating that only 1 language will be used.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

AuxBatOn if Quebec separates do you think you should keep that F18 you are flying now?

[Bush League]

No you are right.
There is no legislation that states you must be proficient in English. There is no legislation that says I MUST put the gear down for landing either, but I find its a little safer at the end of the day if I do. Legislation should not be expected to replace common sense. I would hope if you are doing circuits at a busy airport like St-Hubert, where you could encounter English-only pilots from across the country, that you know basic English ATC phraseology. I understand you want everyone to learn french before flying into Quebec, or somehow accurately evaluate the language barrier prior to departure but most of the time that is an unreasonable expectation. As part of a crew that works often in Quebec we have had to learn basic french phraseology to help keep ourselves safer. Unfortunately, the extensive use of French, even by large commercial carriers in ATC environments, made it not an option for us. For a pure English crew coming from out west, who may only rarely make the trip to Quebec, it can be much more confusing ordeal. I know speaking in a foreign language to a fellow countryman may seem 'weird' but weird is a small price to pay to help prevent slightly more annoying sound of two aircraft colliding.

BL

[Prairie Chicken]

I think it is a very sad state of affairs when being politically correct, and exercising the right to speak French in the air, are both more important than aviation safety.

[CFMartin]

Prairie Chicken, I would differ on your answer: I think it is pretty sad that you are crying about a legal right that ALL prime minister EXCEPT Quebec has voted in 1982.

Every carefully chosen word of the Charter and Constitution that have made both OFFICIAL languages EQUAL within this country were rightfully and freely voted by all implicated parties, and they imply results, and consequences. This is one of them.

Now, when someone will be able to bring an occurence report in Canada where language was the SOLE issue, and where it would be thus justified that this would prevail over the rights of 25% of the country's population, then, maybe we should make an issue about this.

Until then, maybe it is time for people to broaden their horizons...

[linecrew]

I think it would be a fun challenege to take my pretty bad (if not comical) French and make an attempt at tryng to interact with French controllers and pilots. I'm sure while chuckling a little at me they would appreciate the effort...although with my luck I'll screw it up and call in 5 miles out inbound for a left shoe or something.

....told you my French was pretty bad.

[AuxBatOn]

AuxBatOn if Quebec separates do you think you should keep that F18 you are flying now?

2 things.

1-I'm not on the Hornet, but rather on the Hawk.

2-I'm not separatist and I do not defend the use of French in Canadian Airspace. If Quebec do separate (which I doubt), I would stay in Canada. I have been living outside La Belle Province for 10 years. As a matter of fact, I virtually don't speak French at all other that to my significant other. I'm the only French guy at work.

Legislation should not be expected to replace common sense. I would hope if you are doing circuits at a busy airport like St-Hubert, where you could encounter English-only pilots from across the country, that you know basic English ATC phraseology.

Legislation should not replace common sense for the English speaking pilots eighter. Common sense dictates that the Quebecois PPL won't bother trying to learn English, simply because he could well fly for hundred of hours without having to speak to someone that can't speak French. Therefore, I think it's the big guy's responsibility (ie those that get paid to fly) to learn basic French ATC phraseology when they have reasonable grouds to believe they will have language issues.

I understand you want everyone to learn french before flying into Quebec, or somehow accurately evaluate the language barrier prior to departure but most of the time that is an unreasonable expectation.

Learn French before flying into Quebec? No. Evaluate language barrier prior to departure? Yes. It's not hard. Am I flying to an Uncontrolled airport? Yes? What are the few words I'll need to know? How is that unreasonable?

As part of a crew that works often in Quebec we have had to learn basic french phraseology to help keep ourselves safer. Unfortunately, the extensive use of French, even by large commercial carriers in ATC environments, made it not an option for us.

While controlled, it isn't as big a deal as in an uncontrolled environment as ATC will translate it for you, as required.

I'm not defending the use of French on the Radio (actually if it was just me, everything would be in English in canadian aviation), however, it is not reasonable to expect GA pilots in Quebec to learn English for the few non-bilingual crew flying at their home airports.

[Skyhunter]

Flew in quebec for 3 years on jets... and one summer in cesna's. Took a french course from work but didn't help. Aviation french is different from "street" french. I never did understand much "on the air", but never did I think I was required to learn it. I found it frustrating... and saw at least 2 incidents that the delay in ATC translating came close to causing an accident. But not with small general aviation aircraft, conflicts between fighters and ATR/Dash 8 as well as between some fighters speaking english and some french. We tried to put language in the flight safety reports as a contributing factor... but was ordered by the CO not to!

Do I think General Aviation in quebec needs to learn english.... No... I personally believe that would be unreasonable and unfair and not really required.
However, as soon as it goes to carrier ops, I think like the rest of the world, it should go to english only. It would be safer for all, and that is more important that whether it is fair or not. Commercial aviation is enlglish.... if it was all done in spanish.. I would have to learn that. Even in the military, regardless of country, english is what is spoken by all NATO countries when talking to ATC or air weapons controllers.

I feel I am very lucky that my first language is the same as the one used for aviation and fully respect the challenges that people face for whom it isn't. I am fortunate not to be in there shoes.

[FlowPack]

We all use Universal Time.

Let's all use Universal Language.

[TeePeeCreeper]

I think it would be a fun challenege to take my pretty bad (if not comical) French and make an attempt at tryng to interact with French controllers and pilots. I'm sure while chuckling a little at me they would appreciate the effort...although with my luck I'll screw it up and call in 5 miles out inbound for a left shoe or something.

....told you my French was pretty bad.

That’s a great attitude you have sir. If only the majority of Anglophones in Canada ''made an effort'' to actually ''try'' to speak in French to a Francophone I'd bet that this language issue wouldn't really be an issue.

If you were to go ANYWHERE near Quebec City or even the Sagenay region (a notoriously anti English minded part of the province) and just tried to use your ''best'' although ''broken'' French I'd bet you that the Francophone on the other end of the conversation would immediately ''accommodate'' you in his ''best'' although ''broken'' English since you made an effort to speak in his/her native tongue thus showing a bit of respect in the process.

The french speaking pilots on 26.7 whom refuse to speak in English when Anglophones are in the vicinity are a minority at least from what I've seen in ''la belle province''.

[sierakiloyankee]

Hum... to bad so many people think that making a little effort is for others. Take two minutes to try to learn something. Most of the Quebec pilot learned all aviation word in english, and most of them speaks at least a little bit. So what are the chances that you, the unilingual english pilot come face to face to someone that doesn't have a clue about your intentions, and would not be abble to tell you his. Considering that he probably knows his number in english. Now for you... airport is '' aeroport'' mile is ''mille'', Downwind is ''vent arriere'', Base is ''base'' , final is '' finale '' south is ''sud'' north is ''nord'' , east is ''est'' , west is '' ouest'' now for numbers... remember that thousand is the same as a mile in distance '' mille'' = thousand , learn from 1 - to 10 in french and you are all set to know whats around you... and also good to apply at Air Canada as a bilingual dude !

Good luck ! and we are waiting for your visit and if you are not to scare to try it , you will probably find out that finaly people like to exaggerate
believe me seems worst than it is...

[Buzz Lightyear]

I don't know how many of you have really flown in Europe but I did since it's where I'm originally from and I stand by my statement....GENERAL AVIATION in most countries uses the national language. I'm not saying you can't get any english, of course you can but French pilots communicate in French, Italians in Italian....

Even commercial aviation....on the approach into Paris De Gaulle all you can hear is "Air France 011 descendez à 3000 ft cap 350....", unless it's a foreign airline.

Even though I have a tendency to use French when flying in Quebec (commercially) I think it's our duty to switch to English when we feel it's required for safety purposes...and I do it without hesitating a second.

Anyway, this is a never ending subject that could be discussed for hours with the same result: split views and hurt feelings so let's just accept it the way it is until there's official regulation to solve the issue (which I don't think there will ever be).

Happy flying to all, wherever you are.

Buzz

[jetflightinstructor]

Michael wrote:

Even the Chinese are complying with ICAO regulations.

What do you mean? In China mainland the use of chinese is the norm. English is the exception. The proof? It is forbidden not having a chinese speaking crew aboard when flying domestic between 2 airports.

Bush wrote:

There is no legislation that states you must be proficient in English.

True.

there is no legislation that says I MUST put the gear down for landing either

wrong. Check list and SOPs are not an option. Not in my airline. Try not following the check list and make a gear up landing just because you beleive you can. And you will soon hear about legislation in court.

I know speaking in a foreign language to a fellow countryman may seem 'weird'

You know? Have you experienced yourself this situation? In wich language?

but weird is a small price to pay to help prevent slightly more annoying sound of two aircraft colliding.

I don' t reckon 2 aircraft colliding in the Quebec sky because of the language.

But I reckon the huge effort from the Quebec pilots for being able and make the radio in english when necessary.

Again, for the ones who misunderstand "ICAO english international language": INTERNATIONAL.
It means it is legal (and even mandatory in some countries) to speak the domestic language on domestic flight. And domestic flight concerns 80% of the world flying.

Many pilots can make the radio communication in 2 or 3 languages, but I have noticed that the language issue is almost always rised up by pilots able to speak and understand in the air only one language.... Interesting...

[petpad]

english is the universally accepted language of aviation,

one language is needed, thats the way it has to be for safety in the air and on the ground

http://www.flightspeak.co.uk/ICAO_English.htm

From:
Canadian Aviation Regulations Part VI - General Operating and Flight Rules
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... tm#602_133

Language Used in Aeronautical Radiocommunications

602.133 English and French are the languages of aeronautical radiocommunication in Canada.

Locations Where Services Are Available in English and French

602.134 (1) Any person operating an aircraft who wishes to receive the services referred to in this section in one of either English or French shall so indicate to the appropriate air traffic control unit or flight service station by means of an initial radiocommunication in English or French, as appropriate.

(2) Every flight service station set out in Table 1 to this section and every air traffic control unit set out in Table 3 to this section shall provide advisory services in English and French.

(3) Every air traffic control unit set out in Table 3 to this section shall provide air traffic services in English and French.

(4) Every temporary air traffic control unit located in the province of Quebec shall provide air traffic services in English and French.

(5) Every flight service station set out in Table 2 to this section shall provide, between any person operating an aircraft and any air traffic control unit set out in Table 3 to this section, a relay service of IFR air traffic control messages in English or French, as indicated by that person.

[Prairie Chicken]

A few years ago airlines & their crews were very concerned about the language issues flying in & out of Blanc Sablon. It was a recurring issue at the Regional Aviation Safety Council Meetings. The result was that TC undertook a ‘risk assessment’. If I recall correctly, the end result was a politically correct report with a number of recommended corrective actions ... but rumour was the inspectors who did the assessment called it a safety hazard.

When I was flying in that area I certainly didn't feel comfortable listening to a lot of calls and having no idea who was where.

I stand by my original post. It’s a sad state when being politically correct trumps safety.

[ruddersup?]

Fast forward 20, 30, 40 years and this won't be a problem. Most of the Quebec youngsters will be educated in English Universities to survive in this English world and there will not be a problem anymore.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Again, for the ones who misunderstand "ICAO english international language": INTERNATIONAL.
It means it is legal (and even mandatory in some countries) to speak the domestic language on domestic flight.

Can you post the countries where it is mandatory to speak their language to fly in their airspace on a domestic flight.

Also could you post the regulation that they have to demand this?

[jetflightinstructor]

http://www.caac.gov.cn/

Sorry there is no english version at the moment....
Funny but true, check it yourself. Hope you can read chinese...

[jetflightinstructor]

中国民用航空总局关于修订<民用航空器驾驶员、飞行教员和地面教员合格审定规则>、<大型飞机公共航空运输承运人运行合格审定规则>的决定


民航总局第173号令 有效 中国民航局　www.caac.gov.cn




中国民用航空总局令
第173号

《中国民用航空总局关于修订<民用航空器驾驶员、飞行教员和地面教员合格审定规则>、<大型飞机公共航空运输承运人运行合格审定规则>的决定》已经2006年10月18日中国民用航空总局局务会议通过，现予公布，自2006年11月30日起施行。



局长 杨元元

二○○六年十月三十日




中国民用航空总局关于修订《民用航空器驾驶员、飞行教员和地面教员合格审定规则》、《大型飞机公共航空运输承运人运行合格审定规则》的决定



为了与《国际民用航空公约》附件一有关要求相一致，进一步提高民用航空安全水平，中国民用航空总局决定对2004年12月16日以中国民用航空总局第137号令发布施行的《民用航空器驾驶员、飞行教员和地面教员合格审定规则》（CCAR－61－R2）以及2005年2月25日以中国民用航空总局第140号令发布施行的《大型飞机公共航空运输承运人运行合格审定规则》（CCAR－121－R2）进行修订。其中《民用航空器驾驶员、飞行教员和地面教员合格审定规则》（CCAR－61－R2）做如下修订：
“第61.29条修改为：

第61.29条 无线电通信资格
(a) 按照本规则取得驾驶员执照的人员，可以在使用汉语进行通信的飞行中进行无线电陆空通信，并行使飞行通信员的权利。
(b) 按照本规则取得驾驶员执照的人员通过了局方组织或认可的英语语言能力3级或3级以上测试的，在执照上签注相应的等级。
(1) 在2008年3月4日以前，按照本规则取得驾驶员执照的人员，必须通过局方组织的英语模拟陆空通话考试、飞行专业英语考试，并在其执照上获得同意其在使用英语的飞行中进行无线电陆空通信的签注后，方可在使用英语进行通信的飞行中进行无线电陆空通信，并行使飞行通信员的权利。自2008年3月5日起，停止本款所要求的签注。执照上已取得英语无线电陆空通信签注的，等同于英语语言能力3级。
(2) 在2008年3月4日以前，按照本规则取得驾驶员执照的人员获得英语语言能力4级或4级以上等级签注的，可以免除(b)(1)中要求通过英语模拟陆空通话考试、飞行专业英语考试的要求。
(3) 自2008年3月5日起，除经局方批准外，按照本规则取得的飞机、直升机、飞艇驾驶员执照持有人在从事国际和特殊管理的国内航线运行前，其执照上必须具有英语语言能力4级或4级以上的等级签注。对于执照上签注的英语语言能力低于6级的，还应当定期通过英语语言能力等级测试。”
增加附件A 英语语言能力评定标准《大型飞机公共航空运输承运人运行合格审定规则》（CCAR－121－R2）做如下修订：
“第121.479条修改为：
第121.479条 飞行机组成员的英语要求
合格证持有人应当对飞行机组成员进行专业英语训练，使其能够在飞行中使用英语进行陆空通话，阅读各种英文飞行手册、资料，使用英文填写各种飞行文件和使用英语进行交流。
(a) 自2008年3月5日起，除经局方批准外，未通过局方组织或认可的英语语言能力4级或4级以上等级评定而其执照上低于英语语言能力4级等级签注的，不得在国际和特殊管理的国内航线飞行任务中担任驾驶员或进行机载无线电通话的飞行领航员；未通过英语语言能力3级等级测试而其执照上未获得英语语言能力3级等级签注的，不得参加转大型(含)以上机型训练。
(b) 在2008年3月4日前，对未达到局方组织的英语考试要求或局方认可的英语语言能力4级或4级以上等级要求的按照本规则运行的飞行机组成员实施下列限制：
(1) 1960年1月1日(含)以后出生的驾驶员，未取得飞行人员英语合格证（英语模拟陆空通话考试合格、飞行专业英语考试合格）或未通过英语语言能力3级等级测试而其执照上未获得英语语言能力3级等级签注的，不得参加转大型(含)以上机型训练，不得在国际和特殊管理的国内航线飞行任务中担任机长或副驾驶。
(2) 1955年1月1日(含)至1959年12月31日(含)出生的驾驶员，未取得飞行人员英语合格证（英语模拟陆空通话考试合格）的，不得在国际和特殊管理的国内航线飞行任务中担任机长。
(3) 1955年1月1日(含)以后出生的飞行通信员，未取得飞行人员英语合格证（英语模拟陆空通话考试合格、飞行专业英语考试合格）或未通过英语语言能力3级等级测试而其执照上未获得英语语言能力3级等级签注的，不得执行国际和特殊管理的国内航线飞行任务。
(4) 1954年12月31日(含)以前出生的飞行通信员，未取得飞行人员英语合格证（英语模拟陆空通话考试合格）的，不得执行国际和特殊管理的国内航线飞行任务。”
2004年12月16日以中国民用航空总局第137号令发布施行的《民用航空器驾驶员、飞行教员和地面教员合格审定规则》（CCAR－61－R2）以及2005年2月25日以中国民用航空总局第140号令发布施行《大型飞机公共航空运输承运人运行合格审定规则》（CCAR－121－R2）根据本决定做相应的修订，重新公布。
本决定自2006年11月30日起实施。

http://www.caac.gov.cn/B1/B6/200701/t20070110_1112.html

[linecrew]

[Prairie Chicken]

Fast forward 20, 30, 40 years and this won't be a problem. Most of the Quebec youngsters will be educated in English Universities to survive in this English world and there will not be a problem anymore.

Those young enough to learn may all be speaking Mandarin ... and not just in aviation. I've met some keen young business people who are already studying Mandarin as their second language.

[trey kule]

PC wrote:

I stand by my original post. It’s a sad state when being politically correct trumps safety.

You and I disagree on so much in these forums, that it seems out of character for me to agree, but I think you have it spot on.

When reading some of the other posts where the CO made the decision to not allow a safety issue to be included....politcal correctness? Or inspectors who felt language was an issue but did not include it. Makes it possible for all the PC types to claim no problems....and when, not if, the envitable accident occurs all these PC types will wring their hands and state it is an isolated case that no one had forseen...

And I do speak 3 languages. None of them particularily well. Still think a common language is a good thing in aviation .

[jeta1]

comment removed - time expired