Flight "Service"??

[Brown Bear]

Heard something today that made me wonder what FSS's job really is. An aircraft called into an MF for current weather. She was requesting the weather at that particular FSS unit. The request for the current weather was refused! The pilot was given another FSS frequency to contact. Are you people for real? Refusing to give an aircraft your own current weather? I guess I'm confused. What reason could there be for this? Do you WANT certain units to close? It was a simple request. This unit was NOT busy, I was on the frequency, and it was very quiet. Enlighten me, please.

[ypamcvey]

I've never heard of this before. We go the extra distance with requests for weather, even. Sounds like you're only hearing one side of the story.

[thatdaveguy]

Heard something today that made me wonder what FSS's job really is. An aircraft called into an MF for current weather. She was requesting the weather at that particular FSS unit. The request for the current weather was refused! The pilot was given another FSS frequency to contact. Are you people for real? Refusing to give an aircraft your own current weather? I guess I'm confused. What reason could there be for this? Do you WANT certain units to close? It was a simple request. This unit was NOT busy, I was on the frequency, and it was very quiet. Enlighten me, please.

The vast majority of us would bend over backwards to help in any way we can. We're bound to a lot of silly rules that tie our hands, but in general we'll do everything we can for you.

[Brown Bear]

Must admit to being in very close proximity to the pilot requesting the weather. I was floored, because I've asked for wx many times through FSS, and this was a first.
I don't think there was "one side of the story". I think it was piss poor customer service. Wonder if FSS has a customer service line?

[mattedfred]

what was the MF and the freq? i've run into this before when i contacted FSS via 126.7 for the latest wx at an MF. they told me to contact the MF directly.

[Brown Bear]

Don't want to name names. Suffice to say, it was the MF frequency and not 126.7. And we'd been monitoring the frequency long enough to know there was no other traffic, so they were not too busy.

[thatdaveguy]

Must admit to being in very close proximity to the pilot requesting the weather. I was floored, because I've asked for wx many times through FSS, and this was a first.
I don't think there was "one side of the story". I think it was piss poor customer service. Wonder if FSS has a customer service line?

yes, you can file a complaint through the site manager. you can find it in the phonebook

but to be fair to the FSS, just because the frequency isnt busy, doesn't mean he's not busy. far from it. things i've had going on at the same time that makes me busy and it wouldn't seem busy to you:

1) weather/synoptic hour
2) receiving new RSC by fax
3) phone call
4) centre calling
etc. etc.

There's a lot of things he could have been doing to be really busy even though the radio is not. I still encourage you to file a complaint if you still feel one is justified though

[mattedfred]

if the pilot was requesting weather for the station the pilot was speaking to then that is weird. what frequency did the specialist instruct the pilot to switch to? i know southern ontario has been pretty messed up since they closed many of the stations.

[FamilyGuy]

Back in the day..back in the day...

I once had a FSS type refuse to give me the WX enroute because VFR was not "recomended".

I told em I would go without the WX if need be (bluff) and he finally gave it to me. Wasn't that bad - isolated TS+ night VFR

[thatdaveguy]

Back in the day..back in the day...

I once had a FSS type refuse to give me the WX enroute because VFR was not "recomended".

I told em I would go without the WX if need be (bluff) and he finally gave it to me. Wasn't that bad - isolated TS+ night VFR

Don't know what these "rules" are but last time I checked the PIC is responsible for the safe conduct of HIS flight.

I once had a pilot that did such and such... I once had another pilot that did this... etc.

The fact is these are isolated incidents and on the whole FSS is there to help you fly safely.

[mattedfred]

i don't think this is a systemic problem. i think it is a case of ignorance. i know that i'm ignorant of the FSS MANOPS and perhaps FSS is ignorant of my SOPs. i know that if i was more aware of the FSS MANOPS then perhaps i wouldn't be as ignorant.

[Doc]

I've had similar problems with a certain FFS unit. No others, just this one. Brown Bear, you may be complaining to deaf ears. If it doesn't say..."thou shalt" in their manops, then they will not.

[Mohun]

I know as a general rule, you are not supposed to give weather on the MF (I would have anyway). At some sites, where the TS (supervisor) is an anal retentive prick, they will right up an FSS who gives weather on the MF. I believe the reason to be an expectation of service. The old "if you give it to them when it's slow, they will expect it when it's busy".

Some would rather follow the letter of the law than common sense.

[Brown Bear]

What's your current weather? Can't tell me? Where's the "service"? Always have time to tell us the runway is 95% bare and dry, with 5% ice patches on the edges. We really NEED to know that....."anal retentive".......that' it.

[Mohun]

Preaching to the choir Brown Bear. The tail is firmly wagging the dog over here at NAV CANADA. They are sucking the fun right out of this job. No more latitude on extraneous conversation for things like "good day" and such.

[GilletteNorth]

Don't encourage him Mohun.
One question that hasn't been asked or answered is whether the aircraft was landing at that site or passing by.
Mattfred said: I know that i'm ignorant of the FSS MANOPS.
So here's what FSS are supposed to do: if the aircraft is passing by a site and uses the MF to contact the FSS for weather, the specialist is following procedure by telling the pilot to contact the appropriate FIC for weather information since it is an ENROUTE service and is provided by the FIC. This has been true for several years now.
You ask "what's a few seconds giving me some weather info?" Many pilots also ask then for more information for other sites, etc and suddenly what was a single request for that site's current weather has become a pseudo-weather briefing that AAS sites are not allowed to provide. MF's are for airport advisories not weather briefings. FIC specialists have more weather information available to them and are dedicated knowing where the weather systems are. Pilots KNOW they should call the FIC for enroute weather but sometimes take the 'easier' method of asking sites along their route. Stop doing this.
If the aircraft was landing at the site, there might be a reason for a delay in passing the information but the specialist must pass it if requested.
If you 'think' you haven't recieved proper service, contact Nav Canada and inform them about your concern. They WILL check on it. If the person involved is in error, training will be provided to get the FSS to the appropriate standard.

One comment Doc made "If it doesn't say..."thou shalt" in their manops, then they will not". You know that isn't true for so many reasons since most FSS have provided services above and beyond what is required by our company. Someone posted not too long ago a nice long list of the sort of extra ways FSS provided service for pilots that people forget about. I'm still reading through the old posts trying to find it.

[Brown Bear]

GN, you're correct of course. We really are up here because you're down there. Just one more example of "service" going the way of the dodo bird. That's not my job. That's your story, and you're welcome to stick to it. Just don't bother asking us to give you ceiling checks etc. It's not my job. I jest of course...but you do get it, no?

[GilletteNorth]

No, you aren't 'getting it' that as a pilot you should know who to contact for specific types of service. You don't call the cleaners to get an insurance quote, you don't go to Canadian Tire for a hair cut and you don't contact advisory sites for enroute services.

That's not my job. That's your story

... as a pilot should I expect you to be acting as the steward passing out the inflight peanuts and coffee since that is also done on commercial passenger aircraft?
You're getting irate for a precieved 'lack of service to another pilot' that you overheard on the radio and you still haven't stated if the flight was landing there and asking for it's weather. If it was, THEN the other pilot might have a reason to complain and should contact the site manager. If you want to try go back to the old style of advisory sites also providing aviation weather information service... good luck to you.

[Brown Bear]

No, you aren't 'getting it' that as a pilot you should know who to contact for specific types of service. You don't call the cleaners to get an insurance quote, you don't go to Canadian Tire for a hair cut and you don't contact advisory sites for enroute services.

That's not my job. That's your story

... as a pilot should I expect you to be acting as the steward passing out the inflight peanuts and coffee since that is also done on commercial passenger aircraft?
You're getting irate for a precieved 'lack of service to another pilot' that you overheard on the radio and you still haven't stated if the flight was landing there and asking for it's weather. If it was, THEN the other pilot might have a reason to complain and should contact the site manager. If you want to try go back to the old style of advisory sites also providing aviation weather information service... good luck to you.

Nice reply. A hair cut at Canadian Tire is a long way from asking an FSS "specialist" for his own unit's current weather. Wonder why there are sites closing? You've said a mouth full.

[bop]

"Nice reply. A hair cut at Canadian Tire is a long way from asking an FSS "specialist" for his own unit's current weather. Wonder why there are sites closing? You've said a mouth full."

Out of line in my opinion. You have nothing to support the statement that FSS are closing because they are not providing good enough customer service, the only reason that has been stated is decline in traffic.

GN has a good point. Just like Can. Tire is not qualified to cut hair, AAS FSS sites are not qualified to provide enroute weather briefings. There is a good chance that a lack of service is being mistaken for quite the opposite. The FSS simply wanted to make sure that the pilot was getting exactly what they needed. Perhaps there were other things besides the metar that needed to be given (pireps, sigmets, etc.).

I distinctly remember being taught to inform pilots to "contact FIC on ... for weather information" when training. It prevents frequecy congestion on the mf, whether its busy or not.

On a side note, is it really the end of the world for the pilot to switch frequencies in order to get a better weather report from a more qualified specialist, especially if its been a while since the last hourly?

[W0XOF]

....."anal retentive".......

I am absolutely certain you must have been referring to yourself Brown Bear..........................

There is also something called a "priority of duties" Weather falls last. Unless of course the weather is deemed hazardous. eg. TS, FZRA, LLWS, IFR ceilings etc.

[Brown Bear]

Ah yes. the circling of the wagons. What else was I to expect? The pilot is always wrong. I shall now retire to my cave and await spring. And, I shall not bother the FSS folks for their weather. I do, after all have CNN, and the weather network. Sure do hope the ground hog is correct.

[FamilyGuy]

....."anal retentive".......

I am absolutely certain you must have been referring to yourself Brown Bear..........................

There is also something called a "priority of duties" Weather falls last. Unless of course the weather is deemed hazardous. eg. TS, FZRA, LLWS, IFR ceilings etc.

Okay I'll bite on this one.

What praytell is more important than a flight SERVICE station giving me the PILOT the WX info I NEED to determine what is HAZARDOUS????

I get the whole MF thing..but this is going somewhere else I think.

Who exactly is making the determination of what is hazardous? The FSS or the pilot? What other duties are more important?

[W0XOF]

Okay I'll bite on this one.

What praytell is more important than a flight SERVICE station giving me the PILOT the WX info I NEED to determine what is HAZARDOUS????

I get the whole MF thing..but this is going somewhere else I think.

Who exactly is making the determination of what is hazardous? The FSS or the pilot? What other duties are more important?

What other duties are more important you ask praytell?

Ensuring there are no snowplows on the runway while you are landing. Monitoring other traffic, which may or may not include you. Working an emergency. Cooridinating with the ACC on any number of issues, Cab has caught fire (it has happened). etc. etc. etc.

The FIC has all sorts of wx info for you to help determine any hazardous situation. They have RCO's all across this wonderful country. Also phones for while your doing your preflight planning.

In all seriousness though, I don't know of anyone who wouldn't pass their sites weather UNLESS there is a higher priority duty. 95% of the time, you being on the other end of the radio won't know what that is.

A LJ35 calling 120 miles out for the METAR should really be calling the FIC, but a VFR GA in MVFR or below VFR is another story, that's where the priorities change. All about prioritizing. And yes, believe it or not, the FSS is trained to and allowed all on his/her own to prioritize.

[Brown Bear]

I'm becoming a big fan of AWOS. My guess would be if these stations were to be maned, we'd have to ask elsewhere for wx?
WOXOF, your whole post is a smoke screen, that some of us can see through.