Confederation College accident this morning

[Hedley]

as if the TSB is going to bother investigating this

[. ._]

Sounds to me like the student had an offical OOPS!

Who hasn't?

-istp

[Adam Oke]

Getting hung up over TC definitions is not exactly the best way to make an argument. My post intent was to respect the student involved. This is ignored still by certain individuals, as they are caught up in their own personal anger issues towards people in forums. Respect of course is very hard to ask, especially when it comes down to people who know everything. Regardless of approaching things in civil fashions, regardless of people being hypocrites (and know it alls in this industry). at day’s end, I have learned one lesson, never EVER, mix up a student working towards his PPL, and a student with an already acquired PPL. This will sure pave way to disaster in your aviation career.

Safe flying to all


[quote="Adam Oke

Listen kid. Next time you PM me, then attempt to discuss things privately using instant messaging, do not bring the issues back into the public.

I had no input regarding the accident, no argument regarding colleges. I stated a correction that it was a SPP not a PPL. My argument was that you did not have the facts straight regarding a SPP vs a PPL. You stated a PPL bumped the plane up. It was a SPP. I corrected you and defined the distinct difference. You still were persistant on attempting to back up a losing battle. When you're wrong just admit it and move on in life. Grow up and drop it. I couldn't really give a shit about some kid bumping an airplane up and walking away. I couldn't really give a shit if it was a SPP, a PPL, a CPL or even an ATPL. In our short discussion in private you appear to be the kind "giving college's a bad name". Take the ray-bans off, and throw your gold bars out. Enjoy your training at confed. God help you to recognise and understand mistakes ... if you don't recognise it regarding semantics, I can't imagin what else you brush off. This practice could lead you to quite some trouble.

[Pratt X 3]

I am also not the one swearing like a little child in the forums

Little kids swearing?? That would be funny to see right now. Do you have a link to a video of that?

[moose]

Listen to the vets; although that program is definitly not easy, there is simply no way to gain the knowledge through school that they have gained through working in the field. And yes, I do think the college incident is definitly news worthy, i believe it is the first accident or incident, whetever it is, they have ever had. I think it may be especially worth mentioning seeing as the college is currently going through some changes right now, changes that i know next to nothing about, but for them to have 50 or 60 students in the 2nd semester like im told they have now, things have obviously changed considerably. I hope the student involved doesn't get so discouraged as to quit, but i hope even more that if he decides to continue, every single one of his future landings will be safe because he now knows what can very easily happen if you are not careful with these things.


-CF188A, very respectable PM, thank you

[B-rad]

Ok, this is getting boring fast... I know i have nothing else to do right now but this thread make me go find something. I think I should thank you cuz it's nice outside!!

[767]

Im not sure at what phase of flight this accident took place. If it happened on the takeoff roll, i hope it didnt happen because the student had excessive forward pressure on the control column (common mistakes students make these days). Anyone have an official report? It will be interesting to find out what actually happened.

[Widow]

The CADORs is on the first page of this thread. Says it was on landing. Likely to be the only "official" report seen.

[Hedley]

If it happened on the takeoff roll

remotely possible, I suppose, but extremely unlikely. If indeed
this happened on takeoff, it would be a remarkably unusual
event, worthy of a medal from COPA, complete with a photograph
from Kevin.

Far more likely this happened during landing. Heck, you can
porpoise a T-33 if you try hard enough.

P.S. CADORS says "during landing".

[tzu]

And yes, I do think the college incident is definitly news worthy, i believe it is the first accident or incident, whetever it is, they have ever had. I think it may be especially worth mentioning seeing as the college is currently going through some changes right now, changes that i know next to nothing about, but for them to have 50 or 60 students in the 2nd semester like im told they have now, things have obviously changed considerably.

Aside from the students mishap - which can happen to the best of us on any given day (examples here would be: pilots with thousands of hours experience parking their aircraft on the side of a hill in so-called VFR or landing on trees in fog when believing it's a lake... the list is endless here)

An even better example would be:
October of 1915, Richthofen was transferred to pilot training. He was an adequate, but not outstanding, pilot--after 25 training flights, he crashed while trying to land on his first solo flight.
Now, who in this forum is a better driver than the "red baron"?

Nevertheless, adding on to Moose's point, although I doubt this had anything to do with the incident, I have also heard that the college program has changed considerably. Academic load has been reduced, enrollment increased, and students who have failed the curriculum are now be readmitted to program.
Perhaps these changes are due to an attempt to increase government funding, but, from once being one of the toughest schools to graduate from, it sounds like its becoming just an ordinary flight school that offers flight training to ANYONE, regardless of a students seriousness to succeed in the program. (This may also be a good thing though, as I imagine that no special recognition would be given to the graduates of this new Confed, and thus no Raybans or gold bar attitude)

[Shiny Side Up]

remotely possible, I suppose, but extremely unlikely. If indeed
this happened on takeoff, it would be a remarkably unusual
event, worthy of a medal from COPA, complete with a photograph
from Kevin.

Far more likely this happened during landing. Heck, you can
porpoise a T-33 if you try hard enough.

Hazarding a guess from the CADORS on the other page I would wager that someone was going to fast to make the taxiway on their last circuit, but tried anyways and had an encounter with a snowbank. A slippery patch was probably involved, and snow banks that are around at this time of the year have the consistency of concrete (some can stop my snowplow blade, a Cessna nose wheel has no chance). One only hopes that when he realised when he was going for the toulees he cut the mixture to save his crankshaft.

But that's just speculation.

[Donald]

UPDATE

Detail InformationUser Name: Donaldson, John
Date: 2009/03/04
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: Aerodrome Safety
Narrative: The Confederation College of Applied Arts & Technology Cessna 172N aircraft (C-GYAS) was landing after a local VFR flight from Thunder Bay Airport (CYQT). NAV CANADA staff reported that the aircraft was landing on runway 25 and ended up in the snow at the intersection of runway 25 and taxiway CHARLIE. Ops. impact -- unknown. Damage -- unknown. Injuries -- unknown.

User Name: Donaldson, John
Date: 2009/03/05
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: General Aviation
Narrative: UPDATE Supplemental information received from T.S.B. Initial Notification [#A09C0029]: The student pilot of the Cessna 172N aircraft (C-GYAS) was conducting solo touch-and-go landings on runway 25 in Thunder Bay, ON. During the "Go" portion following the fourth landing, the aircraft veered to left. The pilot was unable to regain control of the aircraft and it departed the paved portion of runway 25. Upon entering the snow-covered area beside runway 25, the nosewheel dug into some soft snow and broke off. Airport fire fighting personnel arrived at the scene immediately. The pilot was not injured. The aircraft sustained damage to the propeller, engine, nosewheel, and lower engine cowling area. The aircraft has been removed from service until repairs can be made.
User Name: Donaldson, John
Date: 2009/03/05
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: General Aviation
Narrative: UPDATE Supplemental information received from J.R.C.C. Trenton [2009/03/05]: J.R.C.C. Trenton staff advised that Winnipeg ACC staff had reported an accident on the field at the Thunder Bay Airport, ON. A Cessna 172 aircraft with one (uninjured) occupant nosed over on landing during training and ended up in the ditch. No assistance required. Case closed.

[Hedley]

Right rudder .... Right rudder ... RIGHT RUDDER! ... RIGHT RUDDER!!!

I guess a 200 foot wide runway, isn't wide enough sometimes.

[Brown Bear]

What's the big deal? With all the training that goes on, I'm surprised this happens as infrequently as it does.
Yes endless, it's always worth extra points if it's a college. The students don't have to write a cheque after every flight. And that gives the rest of us an Inferiority complex, how?
WTF is with student pilots flying Cessnas etc., wearing gold bars? Look at me, I is Pilot!
And Widow (ya knows I loves ya) is looking for an "official" report. He "pooched" it. Like, we've never had a Dash 8 captain pooch one. Life goes on.

[trey kule]

hedley

Right rudder .... Right rudder ... RIGHT RUDDER! ... RIGHT RUDDER!!!

I guess a 200 foot wide runway, isn't wide enough sometimes.

Why would they have used right rudder?..Not in the checklist, SOP's or part of the landing briefings...perhaps it is included in the pre-runway excursion briefing...which if it is, is another failure of a student to use the proper briefings, checklists and calls.

Seriously though, I have to agree as to what is the big deal here. If anyone thinks that there are going to be no accidents like this in training they are living in a fantasy world. shit happens. Seems to me that there have been a couple of times in my career when I was unsure how things were going to end up , and the fact that nothing got bent was luck not skill.

[767]

I dont think it is a good idea to let a student pilot do solo touch and go's.

T/O roll:

1. Power: Full
2. LOOKOUT - maintain centreline with rudder
3. Guages: Green
4. LOOKOUT - maintain centreline with rudder
5. Airspeed: Alive
6. LOOKOUT - maintain centreline with rudder

[Brown Bear]

767...if you'd been his instructor, he'd still be on the ground doing his pretakeoff briefing!

[767]

767...if you'd been his instructor, he'd still be on the ground doing his pretakeoff briefing!

haha.. Id rather have him do the t/o breif instead of solo touch and go. Atleast hes not going anywhere while hes breifing

[trey kule]

Cruel BB...true but cruel.

You have to look at the positive side.

long checklists are a complete win-win

1. 767 gets to log that all important PIC time towards his future briefing career
2. there is little chance of an accident while sitting idling, so accident stats will improve and that will make TC happy
3. 767 gets paid by the hour, so spending 1/4 of each flight lesson parked going through briefings means more training time per student ergo more money for 767
4. the flight school is collecting flight revenue for a plane that is quietly sipping fuel at idle and is not accruing air time.

So everyone is happy..well, maybe except the poor students who are getting the royal shaft...

I gotta say, I always thought 767 was just an idiot...but I now realize how wrong I was...he is the ultimate troll.. If he just hadnt gone quite so far out of whack with his last posting for the benefit of us all regarding maintaining the center line on the TO roll, I would never have clicked to his devilish craftiness.

[767]

Cruel BB...true but cruel.

You have to look at the positive side.

long checklists are a complete win-win

1. 767 gets to log that all important PIC time towards his future briefing career
2. there is little chance of an accident while sitting idling, so accident stats will improve and that will make TC happy
3. 767 gets paid by the hour, so spending 1/4 of each flight lesson parked going through briefings means more training time per student ergo more money for 767
4. the flight school is collecting flight revenue for a plane that is quietly sipping fuel at idle and is not accruing air time.

So everyone is happy..well, maybe except the poor students who are getting the royal shaft...

I gotta say, I always thought 767 was just an idiot...but I now realize how wrong I was...he is the ultimate troll.. If he just hadnt gone quite so far out of whack with his last posting for the benefit of us all regarding maintaining the center line on the TO roll, I would never have clicked to his devilish craftiness.

Go back to the thread. It clearly states that the t/o breif is done PRIOR TO ENGINE START. I do not get any time, or any pay, until the engine starts.

Not sure what you talking about in the 2nd point u made about idling.

[trey kule]

Well, 767, it was all pretty much tongue in cheek, though, like many things, with a kernel or truth.

As to the point you did not understand. Inspection intervals, engine TBO's and some AD/SBs are predicated on Air time...not flight time. An airplane sitting on the ground at idle is simply burning fuel. It is not accumlating, or burning off, if you like, any reserve costs...nothing but pure money for a flight school as they are charging flight time.

Actually, I am not sure why you asked this as I am sure your FTU must have covered this little nicety in their extensive ground school for instructors..It is why you only add air time in the journey log to the TTAF and check it against the card for time to next inspection etc.

But you were just pulling my leg weren't you. You knew the answer all the time.

[short bus]

767 wrote:

I dont think it is a good idea to let a student pilot do solo touch and go's.

I'm just curious if you were being serious or not when you wrote this comment?

[767]

I'm just curious if you were being serious or not when you wrote this comment?

Thanks for asking. To answer your question, I am being serious.

[767]

Well, 767, it was all pretty much tongue in cheek, though, like many things, with a kernel or truth.

As to the point you did not understand. Inspection intervals, engine TBO's and some AD/SBs are predicated on Air time...not flight time. An airplane sitting on the ground at idle is simply burning fuel. It is not accumlating, or burning off, if you like, any reserve costs...nothing but pure money for a flight school as they are charging flight time.

Actually, I am not sure why you asked this as I am sure your FTU must have covered this little nicety in their extensive ground school for instructors..It is why you only add air time in the journey log to the TTAF and check it against the card for time to next inspection etc.

But you were just pulling my leg weren't you. You knew the answer all the time.

As much as i love to stick to the topic of this thread, it seems like i will have to switch it back to the t/o breif once again.

You said in the previous post, that im building time for my future, and you said im getting paid for it. The FTU where i work at, only bills the student if the aircraft takes off. If something happens while taxing and the airplane has to return to the ramp for whatever reason, the student is not charged for it. In other words, if there is 0 air time, then there is 0 charge. I cant control how the FTU bills the student.

With regards to the take off breifing, once again, i ask for it before engine start, not at the runway while the engine is running, or when there is a line up of aircraft waiting behind me for takeoff. Sometimes, the taxi to the runway is continous with the checks completed on the go, depending on student experience. I would also like to mention, going to and from the practice area is done at full power cruise, IN ORDER TO speed up and SAVE THE TIME! I usually do this when the student has gained experience, otherwise its normally the standard cruise power setting.

I hope that makes everything clear. If not, pm me and i can try again. Now lets get back to the topic of the thread.

[Tim]

no touch and gos?! you're out to lunch buddy. its the instructors job to teach them how to do it safely, not to tell them the risks are so great they shouldnt even attempt it. you sound like youre trying to reinvent flying and flight instruction.