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[dell111]

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[sissyphus]

Instructing is real hours. You are really in an airplane that can really kill you. To Instruct properly you have to have solid fundamentals, think way ahead of not only the airplane but the student as well. Airplanes are much more predictable than people. Probably the most valuable/rewarding flying I've done. You meet great people and do some pretty neat things. Its great to fall back on when times are tough, or to be more valuable on the line as a training Capt and avoid a lay off or two. Every airplane follows the same rules. It took me a couple of years on a jet to realize it flies just like the tomahawk.

You're going to end up where ever you are so just go and do it. You can instruct get some hours, go to the bush, get on a king air get some time, get on with an airline. You can take any road you want, they all end up where you want. Airlines aren't for everybody. Maybe you learn along the way what it is you want and find a job that suits you. The more you plan it the longer it takes so get a job, soon. Because you'll quickly that this industry is a wave, and if you miss it, you're left paddling until the next one comes along.

cheers

[mattedfred]

i would go the float route myself

a float rating is less expensive then an instructor rating and an IFR

my goal would be to get a float job with a company that also had wheeled aircraft that they flew IFR or at least get a float job near IFR operators

i.e. YXL, YWG (selkirk) etc

[jetflightinstructor]

Downside is that they are not "real" hours

So who taught you how to take off, to land, spin, fly from an airport to an other without killing yourself?

Not real world flying hours (dealing with weather

PPL is VMC, IFR can be IMC, Night rating takes place night time...Depending on what you instruct.

Flying an airliner as PM half the time with auto pilot involves less handling than flying as an instructor.

[LegoMan]

Real experience is flying in the north. Piston or turbine dont matter. Flying majority IFR into short unpaved strips is the experience you will need. Instructing in the same familiar zone into the same familiar airport is not experience and some companies in the north wont even take instructors they would rather hire their own rampies. Flying in the north is experience that instructing never game me.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The instructing industry is ass backwards.

Flight instructors should be people who have learned about flying in the industry and when they decide they want to stay home they can become instructors.

Having students teaching students makes no sense whatsoever.

[Pugster]

Pick which ever one you think you would enjoy more and be better suited to, and do that.

The bottom line is that it really doesn't matter. What is key is getting some experience, and most importantly developing a solid reputation with the people and companies that you work with so that when opportunities arise, you are someone they would feel proud to recommend. Every job I've got in this business was obtained not because of my experience, but because of the recommendation of a pilot already at that company. The experience was what qualified me for the interview. Do yourself a favor and just pick what you think you'd enjoy doing, or what fits your life best!

Some of the best Captains I fly with were instructors at one point in time. Some came out of the bush. There's also incompetence on both sides of that coin as well. People, it really, really doesn't matter...the learning doesn't stop once you get in the seat of something big...

[El Comat]

Having students teaching students makes no sense whatsoever.

I never thought of it that way, but in a lot of cases that is 100% correct. My vote for starting a career would be fly floats or work the ramp (and be flying part time hopefully). Once you start flying full time up north you will have more experience than your instructor buddies in no time (6 months to a year probably). Plus your captains and FOs will be great contacts/references for you to move on to other companies as the years go by. I did the ramp route, so I am a little partial to it. However, the proof is in the pudding...I (and numerous others) went from 250 hours on the ramp to 3000 hours (with 1500 hours PIC) in less than 3 1/2 years before moving on to a 705 job.

I'm not knocking anyone for choosing to instruct, everyone has to make ends meet while putting hours in the book somehow!

EC

PS - Hey . I flew with an old colleague of yours that used to fly Cansos up north with you....a tall guy by the name of Barry.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The same Barry that went to Chile on the waterbombers with us?

[Stan Darsh]

The instructing industry is ass backwards.

Flight instructors should be people who have learned about flying in the industry and when they decide they want to stay home they can become instructors.

Having students teaching students makes no sense whatsoever.

Ok ., excuse the assumptions but I believe you are well experienced in the industry and are near or at retirement - would you or others like you go back to instructing after a long and interesting career, and would that be enough to satisfy demand for instructors? I think not. I can't imagine the instructor population composed entirely of well seasoned pilots with loads of operational experience outside of instructing - the money for the most part is elsewhere. That's just the nature of the game I guess.

[SinkRate]

People may disagree but I know guys who made it to Big Red and WestJet in 5 yrs from their licences being done....
Pretty simple acually.People may disagree but this is my opinion. Bravo , Wasaya, Borek, Nakina,and many other northern operators are they way to go. You may throw bags and pay yourdues for a year till your number comes up but the wait is worth it. You'll come close to timing out every year and in 2 yrs youll have close to if not more than 2000 hrs ifr turbine.
Then if you not Capt already you have the time to search for a Capt position at another company. After a year or 2 of turbine capt guess what? You have the reqs for Big Red and Westjet.
Instructing pays peanuts and lets face it ...your flying around the berry patch for 1000 hrs. This instruction time could get you an F/O position up north though. In my opinion save your 6 grande and take a road trip.
As for floats I bet that would be the most fun flying of your career...I have a rating and a few hrs and loved flying them.
I would take that route over Instructing.
Good luck
Sink

[Invertago]

I find most captains are trying to keep their co-pilot alive and out of trouble while most students seem to be out to inadvertently kill you or at least get a cador.

I also found that while working on my IFR, the instructors who had the thousdands of hours airforce background where very difficult to learn from vs the instructors who had a few hundred hours as a copilot on a Ho. If I wanted to learn to fly a F18, then the ol airforce guys might be a bit of an advantage.

As for the experience the North before you teach flying, all my past history teachers had no first hand WW2 experience, they brought in guest speakers for that. You're average WW2 vet doesn't have the energy left to take on a university level history program.

You don't always have to have been there to know what you're talking about. (but I think we've all had this pissing contest before...)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Ok ., excuse the assumptions but I believe you are well experienced in the industry and are near or at retirement -

I am retired.

would you or others like you go back to instructing after a long and interesting career,

I was instructing when I retired before I retired I tried to set up a FTU in Canada, however Transport Canada would not approve my application so I will not be operating a school in Canada.

and would that be enough to satisfy demand for instructors?

It might at least give the new instructors some experienced people to help guide them.

I think not. I can't imagine the instructor population composed entirely of well seasoned pilots with loads of operational experience outside of instructing -

I never ever suggested that all flight instructors be well seasoned pilots, what I have suggested is there should be a balance between the two.

the money for the most part is elsewhere.

I was not planning to run the school because I needed the money, I wanted to do it because I like instructing.....if it was the money I would go back to doing the teaching I was doing before I retired, I assure you I was very well paid.

That's just the nature of the game I guess.

I guess you may be right, if something is staggering along by pure inertia why try and improve it.


By the way it is my opinion that any new flight instructor should have to have a higher minimum hours requirement than just a bare commercial with no other flying time.

[mattedfred]

if flight instructors were paid what they should be worth and a minimum experience level was required then you would see more experienced pilots participating

i think this is the way it should be

the availability and affordability of flight instruction is not a right

the industry would be better served by more experienced, well paid flight instructors thereby increasing the cost of flight training thereby increasing the compensation demands for entry level positions

we should not continue to degrade our profession by reducing the standards and pay for training and instructors juts so more people can afford to become a pilot

[Chuck Ellsworth]

What I find absurd is if a pilot sends in his paper work for upgrading to a commercial license and TC finds that the cross country was only 299 miles and not 300 or whatever the requirement is they will make him /her do another cross country because they did not meet the experience requirement.

Yet little Johnny or Janie can get a commercial pilot license and without having ever done an hour of flying with said license they can go straight into training to be a flight instructor and in a very short time they start their career as a commercial pilot teaching others how to fly.

Having owned a flight school and had many of these young new instructors working for me it was frightening observing how programmed some of these young people were when it came to teaching techniques.

[Invertago]

The system is such that what really matters to both the instructor and the student is checking the boxes, meeting set requirements and passing the flight test. To teach beyond that is seen as milking the student for hours.

In order for TC (a bureaucracy) to regulate training, it is natural that a license becomes a paperwork exercise in crossing T's and dotting I's. They wouldn't have the man power even if they worked 12 hour days to monitor flight training if it was based on real learning. There are more flight schools out there then TC inspectors to watch them so it comes down to paperwork and a single test score. Just like would they really have time to mark a written answer essay exam vs multiple choice?

As per the pilot vs plumber debate, plumbers don't just go to the local mom and pop school to learn their trade from a new plumber they go off to school to learn from experienced instructors then they become apprentices.

Just my observations and 2 cents, carry on

[Chuck Ellsworth]

As usual when it comes to the subject of flight training it just goes round and round in the same old differences of how it should or should not be done.

If flight training in Canada is to a high standard why are the instructors paid so poorly?

[mattedfred]

my plumber told me it takes 5 years to become a journeyman plumber. an apprentice must work under a journeyman plumber. i don't believe there is any additional requirements for the journeyman plumber that supervises an apprentice. you also don't attend any classes until you have worked as an apprentice for 2 years then again after 4 years i believe.

5 years of apprenticeship including 4 months of class time

[Lurch]

You may throw bags and pay your dues for a year till your number comes up but the wait is worth it.

This is a load of BS, you owe nobody a damn thing.


The arguement about the valididty of instructors has been going on forever and I have said my peace and will leave it at that.


Dell111, if you don't have the determination to instruct, due to the fact you are asking this question, don't do it. There are already enough dumb instructors out there who are just hour building and give the dedicated instructors a bad name, Stay away.


I have flown bush, IFR and Instructed

The easiest on a day to day basis are IFR and Bush, instructing you have to be on the ball for the entire flight (If not you are wasting your students money).

Bush and IFR are 90% of the time boring straight and level flight, but that other 10% of the time you are pushed to your or the planes limits and will scare yourself a few times until your skill progresses.

Personally if I had to start over again and go a different route I would get the float rating.

Lurch

[Invertago]

Dammit Lurch, way to answer the guys question with out inserting a bunch of avcanda BS, now we have nothing to argue about tonight! Time to go find a new thread to piss in.

[Lurch]

Dammit Lurch, way to answer the guys question with out inserting a bunch of avcanda BS, now we have nothing to argue about tonight! Time to go find a new thread to piss in.

LOL

Your Welcome

Lurch

[seniorpumpkin]

As you may have gathered, there are many different way to making it to the coveted "airline job". Debating which sector of the industry will get you there faster is semantics. What you really should be asking yourself is:

Do you want the instructor route (learn from the mistakes of others, impart a limited amount knowledge to others, keep living in your parents basement, hold onto your girlfriend/wife, get to spend your days off in a city, go out at night to some hip new restaurant).
Or do you want to go the bush route (get shat on [instructed] by crusty old bush pilots who know just about everything, move up north, expand your horizons, possibly loose the girl, get to spend your days off fishing and reading avcanada posts, watch your social life become limited to creeping on facebook).

Decide which life you want to pursue, then worry about making the most of whichever decision you have made. Both of these paths will teach you lots about flying airplanes, both will scare the crap out of you at times, and both will lead to better things in the future. If you make the wrong decision, don't worry, it happens. Some guys go crazy up north, they miss the city and have trouble shotgunning beer and such. Some instructors want to shoot themselves every time they hear "I don't get it?".
If employers had a formula for what they look for life would be a lot easier. The reality is that they look for all sorts of different things. Some chief pilots got their start as an instructor and therefore have more respect for guys who have instructor time and vice versa. PIC time, turbine time, float time, instructor time, IFR time, it's all valuable for different types of jobs. For an airline job, sure they'll look at your multi turbine PIC time first, but they won't scoff at your float time/instructor time either.
Oh ya, and take every bit of advice with a grain of salt, the answers you are searching for come from within.

[atphat]

Very well said seniorpumpkin