Confederation College accident this morning

[Hedley]

If you're forced to flight train with a crappy runway
(ie short, narrow, obstacles) then I can see the
"no student solo touch & go" restriction.

However, if one bothered to read the regulations,
specifically CAR 405.24:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#405_24

which says:

405.24 No person shall operate a training aircraft at an aerodrome unless the aerodrome is suitable for the aircraft

(a) to be safely operated ...
(iii) ... using normal piloting skills

The legality of performing flight training on a crappy
runway is thus of dubious legality. You might get away
with it freelance, but this is exactly the sort of thing
that Transport looks at for an FTU OC.

[Stan Darsh]

767

Why would you do a takeoff briefing before engine start? The whole point of a t/o briefing is to create an action plan for the crew in case of an emergency that is tailored to the unique conditions of the takeoff and the runway. What happens if you don't use the runway that you briefed for while parked on the apron? Or if the winds shift, or weather moves in? Your course of action will be different if you're taking off over a cliff than over a road or a frozen lake. I may be early on in my training but all of these ad hoc rules that you have just seem like nonsense to me.

[767]

767

Why would you do a takeoff briefing before engine start? The whole point of a t/o briefing is to create an action plan for the crew in case of an emergency that is tailored to the unique conditions of the takeoff and the runway. What happens if you don't use the runway that you briefed for while parked on the apron? Or if the winds shift, or weather moves in? Your course of action will be different if you're taking off over a cliff than over a road or a frozen lake. I may be early on in my training but all of these ad hoc rules that you have just seem like nonsense to me.

I thought this thread has to do about the accident.

Anyways, to answer your question, it is not a tough answer.

My student can give you the answer to that question, ill speak on behalf of the student. The first thing my student will tell you is to use common sense. What they mean by this is get the f**k out of the way from the aircraft waiting behind you for takeoff. If conditions change, you will rebreif yourself without trying to cause unneccasary delays. The rebrief will only consist of the normal procedures (t/o abort point, etc.). the emergency procedures dont have to be rebreifed unless there is any doubt.

Now, if you have any more questions about the t/o breif, pm me. Lets stick to the topic of the thread.

[AuxBatOn]

767, so your students should only do a t/o brief, taxi out, taxi back, and shut down?

Solos are there to improve self confidence mostly. If you do not trust your students can do touch & gos, how can they trust themselve in doing them?

I hope your students read this thread and the T/O Brief (Done pre-start? WTF) thread so they can see how clueless you really are.

Seems like you want to remove all risk from flying. The only way to do this is by not flying.

[767]

767, so your students should only do a t/o brief, taxi out, taxi back, and shut down?

Solos are there to improve self confidence mostly. If you do not trust your students can do touch & gos, how can they trust themselve in doing them?

I hope your students read this thread and the T/O Brief (Done pre-start? WTF) thread so they can see how clueless you really are.

Seems like you want to remove all risk from flying. The only way to do this is by not flying.

Sorry if im getting a little annoyed here. I just have one question for most of you. Take a guess as to how long it takes for my student's to complete the breifing. It seems like most of you believe it takes forever. If anyone here is a flight test examiner, please pm me and i would like to send my next guy/girl up with you for the flight test.

Risk cannot be eliminated. If you think risk can be 100% eliminated, you are right, you should not be flying. But, what is possible is that the risk can be minimized. I do my best to MINIMIZE the risk. I hope that makes sense.

Oh i forgot to add... No, the student does not have to do a t/o breif for each t/o while in the circuit. That would be pathetic. It only needs to be done once for a particular flight. The only time they will rebrief is if the runway changes. But usually, they make it a quick one if that is the case. One thing i cant stand, is delaying other aircraft waiting to takeoff.

[AuxBatOn]

767, the problem that people have with your T/O brief (and I had most people at work read it, and all tought it was ridiculous. Some of them have been instructing in the past, on much more complicated machines that a 172) is that it contains so much information NO RELATED to the immediate part after take off that it does exactly the opposite : it is dangerous. You're trying to have your student cram information NOT REQUIRED for the take off and I'm sure that if one of your students if confronted with an engine failure after take off he'll say : "Which "I will do the following" do I have to do now??"

If you want to test your students ability to memorize emergency scenarios, go through them with him on the ground. On the pre-take off brief, leave it to what it is supposed to be : the take off phase. Also, the take off brief should be tailored to each individual and their OWN confort threshold on what to do where. For example, an experienced pilot may be confortable flying back to the field at 200' and a low time pilot may be confortable at 500'. You CANNOT impose a take off brief to someone. You can suggest a format and the numbers he should be confortable with at the stage he is, but you can definately not impose it.

Again, I would follow the suggestions of the more experienced (and I do not consider myself in that group) and modify your instructional techniques.

[767]

Just PM'd you.

767, the problem that people have with your T/O brief (and I had most people at work read it, and all tought it was ridiculous. Some of them have been instructing in the past, on much more complicated machines that a 172) is that it contains so much information NO RELATED to the immediate part after take off that it does exactly the opposite : it is dangerous. You're trying to have your student cram information NOT REQUIRED for the take off and I'm sure that if one of your students if confronted with an engine failure after take off he'll say : "Which "I will do the following" do I have to do now??"

If you want to test your students ability to memorize emergency scenarios, go through them with him on the ground. On the pre-take off brief, leave it to what it is supposed to be : the take off phase. Also, the take off brief should be tailored to each individual and their OWN confort threshold on what to do where. For example, an experienced pilot may be confortable flying back to the field at 200' and a low time pilot may be confortable at 500'. You CANNOT impose a take off brief to someone. You can suggest a format and the numbers he should be confortable with at the stage he is, but you can definately not impose it.

Again, I would follow the suggestions of the more experienced (and I do not consider myself in that group) and modify your instructional techniques.

[polar one]

767 wrote:

I do my best to MINIMIZE the risk. I hope that makes sense.

Good to hear..Does this mean, then, that you will no longer be instructing?

[Tim]

im curious 767, how much experience do you have? i notice you keep mentioning 'my student', singular.

youve got everybody saying what youre doing doesnt make sense, yet youre sticking to your guns...i take it this means you think youre right and all the rest of us are wrong?

you place an awful lot of emphasis on these briefings. a 172 t/o briefings shouldnt take longer than a 747 t/o briefing.

[Doc]

This thread seems to have become a 767 "witch hunt" re take off briefings. So, it's going nowhere. I'm locking it. Maybe somebody would like to start another thread on the same topic?