Float Rating or bush course?

avman · Post by **avman** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:49 pm

A whole bunch of guys at my landplane school went an got their ratings last spring/summer to get ready for when we graduate from commercial. I am thinking I may do the 50 hour course instead? I am thinking that with it being that much harder to get a job right now, it may give me a bit of an edge. Thoughts?

mattedfred · Post by **mattedfred** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:47 pm

hours = experience to many operators therefore the more hours the more experience

if you can afford it then go ahead as you will hopefully learn more in 50 hours which is the most important factor anyway

username: · Post by **username:** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:08 pm

mattedfred wrote:hours = experience to many operators therefore the more hours the more experience

if you can afford it then go ahead as you will hopefully learn more in 50 hours which is the most important factor anyway

In my opinion, there is no difference between a 200 hour pilot and a 250 hour pilot. If I were you, I would get the float rating.

Mr. North · Post by **Mr. North** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:13 am

I respectfully disagree with what username: has suggested.

The difference between those two pilots is who will work the dock longer. When your starting out the more time you have on floats the better. With 50 hours on floats your halfway there to meeting the insurance requirements that most operators have.

Read through this thread about insurance minimums. It'll give you a good perspective of what your in for.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=49869&sid=e7ef01cf ... 7078018076

username: · Post by **username:** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:45 am

Mr North, I'm not saying your wrong, but in my opinion, that is just as bad as paying for a PPC. Think about how much 50 hours on floats is going to cost you. 50 hour bush courses are a scam. You'll end up getting stuck with some 300 hour instructor sitting beside you who knows f-all about the bush.
What gets you that first float job is a strong work ethic, a good personality and a passion for flying. You will prove this while working the dock.
Save your money.

username: · Post by **username:** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:52 am

Oh and a 50 hour bush course goes for about 15,000 by the way...

superbflyer · Post by **superbflyer** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:01 am

If you can afford it get the 50 hours. When I had called operators last year, most of them told me it was a good idea to get and that it would give me an advantage. I ended up finishing my commercial and getting the 50 hour course. Having taken the rating first, it teaches you very little. The 50 hour advanced really taught me to fly a floatplane. I went to Kelowna and learned a lot. It was the best flying / learning experience I had. It is more expensive than landplane training but I did get a job offer from an operator looking specifically for a minimum of 50 hours on floats and that was their insurance minimums.

avman · Post by **avman** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:08 am

Thank you all so much for your input. I appreciate it. I think I am going to go ahead and take the 50 hour. With the economy the way it is right now, it can only be an advantage. Thanks again.

Slats · Post by **Slats** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:37 am

Is it just me or has this topic has been covered at great length multiple times in the past month?

superbflyer wrote: The 50 hour advanced really taught me to fly a floatplane.

Not nearly as much as your first 100 hours of actual on the job float flying will.

avman wrote:Thank you all so much for your input. I appreciate it. I think I am going to go ahead and take the 50 hour. With the economy the way it is right now, it can only be an advantage. Thanks again.

Hmmm, I think given the current economic situation, the bigger advantage would be keeping that $15 grand in the bank or not going $15 grand into debt. Spending 15 thousand to get a job that will pay you 15 hundred a month for 6 months doesn't seem like good economics to me. And it's not like having that 50 hours will magically open doors for you or convince operators make up a position for you. Every year new float pilots get their start and it has nothing to do with having 10 hours of 50 hours. You are still applying to be at the bottom of the heap. Your attitude and work ethic are the only things that will get you in the driver's seat and move you up.

My vote goes to username. Save your money; you're gonna need it.

Slats · Post by **Slats** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:48 am

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=49869

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=51126

glideric · Post by **glideric** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:22 am

The more you have on floats, the better it is and everyone who haved or fly floats will tell you that. Personnally, a guy that have only a float rating, is dangerous !

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:51 am

superbflyer wrote:
The 50 hour advanced really taught me to fly a floatplane.

Not nearly as much as your first 100 hours of actual on the job float flying will.

Are you sure slats?

Can you explain why you think that way because if such a course is no good maybe you could save me wasting my time offering one.

FlyingFiremenC/PGSon · Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:31 pm

When does more education and experience hurt anyone? If you can pay to acquire what could be any kind of advantage why not take it....

Slats · Post by **Slats** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:45 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Are you sure slats?

Can you explain why you think that way because if such a course is no good maybe you could save me wasting my time offering one.

Well Cat, let me explain myself then. In my opinion (and this is just my OPINION) I believe the float rating is really a license to learn. And personally I learn best by challenging myself with real life situations, not instructional pretend scenarios. Sure, those things have their place, but for me, nothing beats the learning curve of actual operational float flying. Maybe the extra motivation of not having someone beside me and knowing that if I screw up, my @$$ is grass helped me make sure I had all my ducks in a row and was using common sense combined with the foundational basics I had been taught to keep myself out of trouble. Yes I scared the crap out of myself more than enough times, but learned valuable lessons each time. As I've accumulated more and more time I've scared myself less and less while still continuing to challenge myself, presumably because of the lessons I've learned on my own from the past.

I had about 25 hours of float instruction when I got my first float job (which, by the way, I was completely on my own for; no direct supervision of any kind where I was based.) I was taught by two very experienced float pilots, each with several thousands of hours of float time. The foundation of skill and knowledge I got from them was invaluable. But it sure didn't take 50 hours to absorb it all. They were able to cover all the necessary in's and out's, tips and tricks many times over, but you can never ever in any "advanced" float course cover ALL of the unusual, out of the ordinary or just downright weird situations you will find yourself in throughout your career. And you shouldn't need to. With a good handle on the basics of the necessary stick and rudder skills and a good dose of common sense, you should be able to figure out those situations.

Personally (again, just my OPINION) I believe that these so-called "advanced" float courses pushing the notion that 50 hours on floats will magically give you a huge leg-up on the next guy when it comes to getting a job is akin to flight schools telling their students that the dreaded pilot shortage is coming.....oh no we're going to need 47,000 new pilots by June! Quick, give us your money and finish that commercial in time for Air Canada to call! Both are hogwash. I don't think 50 float hours mean too much to too many employers. As I've stated before in other threads, the fact of the matter remains that low-timers are applying for jobs that probably invariably have, at least in part, the duties and responsibilities as follows: work the dock, help out everyone else who is higher up the ladder than you, which is EVERYONE. Have a good attitude, do whatever is asked of you and go the extra mile, show that you're not a prima donna expecting royal treatment because you have a fancy new commercial license with "advanced" bush training. Then, once it's determined that you're a good solid guy/gal (probably after a month or so), you'll get your shot at some stick time doing camp checks, overload runs, etc. This job description really doesn't require 50 hours on floats to do. Nor will having 50 "advanced" hours cause the boss to re-write the job description and toss the 185 keys to the newly arrived golden-armed god of floatplanes. It just doesn't work like that.

Case in point, I was spat out into the real world of aviation at a very poor time as far as employment was concerned. I had 25 hours on floats and desperately wanted a float job. I sent out hundreds of resumes, racked up huge long-distance phone bills and put thousands of miles on my truck. I ended up with a dock job. Friends with 50 hours ended up with nothing. In one of my road trip interviews with one of the most well-respected operators in the north I was told that for entry level positions, he would rather hire someone with no time rather than someone with a little time. That way he could be sure that pilot hadn't acquired any bad habits from a previous job and was trained the way HE wanted them to fly his airplanes. Some time later after toiling away on the dock (not with said operator) for longer than I care to remember I finally lucked into my first float flying gig. Still had my measly 25 hours of floats, but now was armed with great references and a larger network of people. I was hired over guys with 100+ hours on floats because of two great references from people in my corner who just so happened to know the CP.

Cat, I absolutely believe that the training that someone with your experience could provide to a pilot wishing to embark on a career as a float driver is not only valuable, but essential. I have no use for the "blind leading the blind" phenomenon of 200 float hour kids teaching someone to fly floats. However, I also believe that someone with your experience could impart that knowledge and develop that foundation of skill in a pilot in less than 50 hours. Is the bare seven hour rating enough? Probably not, if you really care about providing the best possible instruction and covering all the necessary bases. Would 20 hours do it? I think so, provided the candidate isn't a total meat head, in which case, I'd say it's your duty to tell them that they just aren't cut out for this line of work and they should think about something else. I think the idea of 50 hours is just there to soak the student for more money. I do not believe in the slightest, all other factors being equal, that a pilot with 50 float hours versus a pilot with 20 float hours has a significant advantage either in skill (I don't think anyone could argue that the difference is not negligible to non-existant) or employability. Hence, I think that paying $15,000 for that time will not result in enough return on investment to justify spending that much money, especially when you consider the piss-poor wages that the vast majority of pilots can expect to make their first few years of seasonal work. But that's just my opinion and perhaps I'm too much of a pragmatist to see the value of these courses. Or maybe I'm just a cheap bastard who shudders at the thought of spending huge amounts of money to supposedly reap benefits that other guys get every year for a fraction of the cost.

In the end there are as many ways to get where you want to be in aviation, as there are pilots. Few, if any, are wrong. Personally I would just try to get there with hard work and as little cash spent as possible.

Chuck Ellsworth · Post by **Chuck Ellsworth** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:34 pm

Jesus Christ slats you sure answered my question.

So very briefly I agree with most of what you said especially the cookie cutter type of " 50 hour bush pilot courses " .

For sure if it takes fifty hours to teach any pilot with a commercial license how to fly a float plane safely there has to have been something dreadfully wrong with their former training.

Anyhow I very much doubt I will ever go back into the training business in Canada so for me it does not matter period.

Having said the above proper training in any new kind of flying does require a sufficient amount of time...the big problem is there are few out there doing it that are really qualified to teach bush flying.

username: · Post by **username:** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:39 pm

Good post Slats.

username: · Post by **username:** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:43 pm

FlyingFiremenC/PGSon wrote:When does more education hurt anyone?

$$$
When you're spending more on it than you need to.

BD8 · Post by **BD8** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:06 pm

In 50 words or less, could someone explain to me what a "Bush Course" is.

It can't be the same as the one I took a number of years ago at the Great Alaska Bush Company in Anchorage.

I'd post a picture of my graduating T shirt, but I think the Mods would punt me.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:23 pm

In my opinion, there is no difference between a 200 hour pilot and a 250 hour pilot.

Interesting opinion username.

There is a new sea plane training company starting up here on Vancouver Island and the guy doing the teaching is a very high time sea plane pilot.

Are you telling me that if a new commercial pilot did 50 hours of training with him the pilot would be no better than when the pilot had 200 hours?

KHills · Post by **KHills** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:42 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
In my opinion, there is no difference between a 200 hour pilot and a 250 hour pilot.
Interesting opinion username.

There is a new sea plane training company starting up here on Vancouver Island and the guy doing the teaching is a very high time sea plane pilot.

Are you telling me that if a new commercial pilot did 50 hours of training with him the pilot would be no better than when the pilot had 200 hours?

What are they called, and what type of aircraft do they fly?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:13 pm

There are a couple of schools out here who have excellent teachers, I do not want to name them because this forum is not meant to be for free advertising.

But you can PM me and I will answer the question.

buster79 · Post by **buster79** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:32 pm

Charles: do you think that "Canada" cares if you were to teach some kid how to fly a "sea plane"? doubt it. 50hrs is 50hrs, get a job and learn!! you arn't going to learn the day to day operations by buying 50 hrs of float time for $15,000, and I'm sure it will not move you up the " latter of sucsess" any faster(at a good company). what would be so different in your schoool?, and how much would it cost me for a ride in a sea plane from the great one himself?(.). I thought you were against "buying a job". please explain to me what the difference is betwwen what you would have offerd compared to a ppc on a be-200? I would think it's only money!

Mr. North · Post by **Mr. North** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:37 am

Whether it's right or wrong, paying for a bush course will give you an edge when your starting out. Mind you it won't be much of an edge at all if your paying 15 grand to some dude with a bare 300 hours on floats as username: and others have alluded too..

To give you an idea on where I'm coming from on this I'll share my own experience. I did mine privately 7 years ago with a guy who operated his own camps. Through him I obtained a float rating and 60 hours on a 185. On top of that he also taught this city-boy all about propane and solar systems, boat motors, water pumps, and basically everything to do with the day to day running of the camps. He was well connected in the area and before I was even finished I had a job lined up through him with another operator. This was during the slow period post 9/11 and out of my flight college class of 30, only 6 of us landed jobs within a year of graduating. Initially I avoided getting my multi-IFR and used that money instead to pay for my 'bush course' which at the time cost me around $8000. Once I became established as a seasonal float pilot, I used my seasonal EI benefits to pay for my multi-IFR rating.

The other benefit of a good bush course being taught by a guy who knows the ropes is that your allowed to screw up and it won't be reflected on you professionally. That way when you start your first job you'll hopefully have your head screwed on straight and can avoid some of the more poignant rookie mistakes (avoid some, not all!). Couple this with a good hard work ethic and you'll have a pretty polished reputation.

Chuck Ellsworth · Post by **Chuck Ellsworth** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:30 am

Charles: do you think that "Canada" cares if you were to teach some kid how to fly a "sea plane"? doubt it. 50hrs is 50hrs, get a job and learn!! you arn't going to learn the day to day operations by buying 50 hrs of float time for $15,000, and I'm sure it will not move you up the " latter of sucsess" any faster(at a good company). what would be so different in your schoool?, and how much would it cost me for a ride in a sea plane from the great one himself?(.). I thought you were against "buying a job". please explain to me what the difference is betwwen what you would have offerd compared to a ppc on a be-200? I would think it's only money!

Ahhhh here we go again, comments from someone who can't even construct a paragraph that would meet the standards of a grade four student.

For you guys who are interested in getting advice that is of value to you in your up comming career in aviation I suggest you read all the posts by buster79 and decide if he / she should be your benchmark for valuable advice to better your career.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:30 am

Your post was great Slats, but I would point out that you yourself said-

Slats wrote:I was hired over guys with 100+ hours on floats because of two great references from people in my corner who just so happened to know the CP.

Might be part of the reason a 50 hr course wasn't necessary to give you a leg up.

I've got a question though ... if you do a fifty hr course, does it include underwater egress training?

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