8 Hours Sleep

[beaverbob]

Remember there are different meanings to the word sleep.

For instance you were on an over night and when you got back home your wife finds out you had met a woman in the bar during your supper hour, the first question she will ask is did you sleep with her.

So it stands to reason there are different kinds of sleep some less restful than others.

I think for some of you younger pilots that other sleep would only effect your rest for about 2 minutes.

Seriously though, any company I ever flew for allows 30 minute after the last landing untill out the door. And the last few years its based on a 10 hour duty day at any job I've had.
i find that , depending on where I have lived 14 hour free from duty provides plenty of time for 8 hours rest.
BB

[Rudy]

Fantastic thread. One of the best I've seen on here in a long time. Boy, it's not easy to say no sometimes when everyone's laying off and all you see on the news is doom and gloom. Thanks for the reminder about what the right thing to do is. You wouldn't fly drunk so why fly exhausted. The same people screaming at you on the radio or pushing you out the door aren't going to back you up when you put one in the trees.

[Cap'n P8]

Didn't say it was right Cat, just that there was no specific legislation for instructing.

Of course there is another rule that says you can't fly while impaired. If you are fatigued you are impaired and hence would be flying illegally...but how do you define it?

[mattedfred]

approach ban = unnecessary regulation we are smart enough to make our own decisions

time free from duty = inadequate regulations we aren't smart enough to make our own decisions

[Cat Driver]

When faced with a situation where you are fatigued your trump card with an employer / customer is to advise them you do not feel well and are going home to bed.

It would be very rare for an employee or a customer to insist that any pilot who says they are not feeling well to force the issue.

Even if they did you are on firm ground by refusing to fly.

Your next move would be to quit and find a new job.

[yfly]

approach ban = unnecessary regulation we are smart enough to make our own decisions

Unfortunately, that has been proven wrong by the industry, but it has also been discussed in at least 3 other threads so I will say no more.

[foxmoth]

rockie is right.

any employer who does not give you min of 10 hours should be taken to task by TC. but the rule is (typicall) unclear.
if you read between lines, CARS gives a 14 hour flight duty time. 14 duty plus 10 off = 24 hours. Bingo!

heard of an ex TC (clown) who got corrected in a pilot meeting when he okd 9 hours. So, who understnds it?

Maybe TC should legislate the guys have sex (shared accomodation) so you can fall into a post-coital nap and get the 8 hours in. Not sure that works for us girls, probably just wake us up.

[railroad]

O.K.
So, you're away from base for a few days working. Lets say the weather is great and you are making good progress getting stuff done. One day you are about 13.5 hours into the day and you think - "hey, if I do one more trip today, and one extra tomorrow, I can be home for the weekend." So you do a couple of 14.5 hour days.

Would this make you a scumbag for raising (lowering?) the bar. Maybe you're not just doing it to get home a day earlier, maybe you've been watching the weather network and you figure the weather is going south and it would be good to make some hay while the sun shines.

Or, on the other hand, maybe you have just started that job and upon arriving at camp late one afternoon (after a slow start leaving town due to mechanical reasons) the camp guy greats you by saying - "You're late. We've got -273 trips of drill gear, lumber, poop buckets, top secret dirt, coca-cola, locals, V.I.P.s (that's my favorite), water, garbage, T.V.s, helicopter parts, and one big heavy thing that won't fit in the plane but it has to go right now." Well, you might only be 10 hours into the day, but you say "great we'll start at 7a.m. Now what's for supper and where is my bed".

I've forgotten where I was going with this; but I guess, if you need a black and white regulation to tell you when you're tired, you probably wouldn't get my point anyway.

[mattedfred]

i don't need a regulation but i have one and i follow it to the letter unless i consider it unsafe to do so

i refuse to assume the responsibility if ANYTHING happened for ANY reason if i was PIC and operating outside the regs

if you choose to violate the regs because you know better then maybe you should think about how that affects the next pilot those guys run into that doesn't feel the same way you do

[FlaplessDork]

As an instructor I legally can fly till I passout from fatigue. Often I am flying by 0600 and finished at 2300. Some days I wasn't home till 0300 in the morning. I did this often 7 days a week. If they paid me more I wouldn't fly so long. I had a wife an a kid to support.  Shouldn't there be duty limits for instructors?

Few thoughts on that... how is the quality of your instruction in the morning?  Would you pay an instructor more to be awake in the aircraft with you, or would you take a discount to have one sleep beside you?Are your hours setting a good example for those you teach?If you have a wife and a kid depending on you do you have life insurance when your student takes you both into a tree in the overshoot while you where sleeping?If you're willing to be away from home at work for those hours why not go up north and be away from home for more $?There is not "controlled rest on the flight deck" when the guy in the left seat has his student pilot permit.  You agreed to work for wages you can't live off of, tell the boss you want a raise or leave.  There are more instructing jobs being posted then most other types of flying positions these days.  By accepting the low wages you are just contributing to the farce that is the instructing industry.

I never instructed asleep, and never felt tired. I have a excellent record. I currently instruct 9 to 5 with a good salary with benefits and life insurance and my instructors get the same benefits. We all got $10/hour raises for complaining to the boss, but I quit the place I was at for screwing me around with students.

[FlaplessDork]

As to instructors, fatigue hits you in two ways first it degrades your flying skills and second it degrades your teaching skills so based on that instructors should have lower duty time requirements.

I agree. As an instructor you are "up-and-down" more in a day which can cause more fatigue.

[Bush Man]

When faced with a situation where you are fatigued your trump card with an employer / customer is to advise them you do not feel well and are going home to bed.

It would be very rare for an employee or a customer to insist that any pilot who says they are not feeling well to force the issue.

Even if they did you are on firm ground by refusing to fly.

Your next move would be to quit and find a new job.

I agree with what you're saying here, but how many up & coming pilots will lay down a hand that could result in being black-balled and drawing EI? It's not always easy to "quit and find a new job" in this industry .....and so I guess there lies the problem.

[Cat Driver]

I agree with what you're saying here, but how many up & coming pilots will lay down a hand that could result in being black-balled and drawing EI? It's not always easy to "quit and find a new job" in this industry .....and so I guess there lies the problem.

It has been the same ever since I started flying 55 years ago, one would think that by now there would be some protection in place to protect aircrew who lose their jobs because they refused to break the rules.

Sadly it has not changed.

You are left with a very hard decision all on your own, shall I gamble and accept two levels of risk? First the risk of having an accident and maybe losing my life, and the possible risk of being violated for being in non compliance with the rules?

Or do I quit and maybe be unable to feed my family.

It is an ugly fucking situation isn't it?

I have done all of the above including quitting several jobs, I was lucky that I never had an accident or got violated for non compliance with the rules....very lucky seeing as I was in the business for over fifty years.

I am out of it now but trust me I know the pressures some of you people are under and all I can say is be very careful how far you push your luck.

Deep inside of you should be an emotion called fear.....when fear over rides confidence walk away and live to try and find another job....remember you will be alone because there is no one to turn to that will defend your decision.

Like I said it is a ugly fuckin business, lots of motherhood babbling about safety and all that bullshit but no real protection for those who want to do it right in far to many cases.

[Rudy]

I agree with what you're saying here, but how many up & coming pilots will lay down a hand that could result in being black-balled and drawing EI? It's not always easy to "quit and find a new job" in this industry .....and so I guess there lies the problem.

Almost none would and there in lies the biggest problem with aviation safety. If transport wants the final line of defense to be the PIC there has to be protection from retribution for that person. Remember retribution can be much more subtle than blatantly firing someone. Some companies unionize to gain a some security. It's sad that it comes to that in this day and age though. If they put half the time and money spent on SMS, approach bans, and other regulations into pilot's rights and then backing up those pilots then we'd really have safer skies.

Great post Cat.

[stopsquawk]

Excellent thread. Just remember that regardless what your company's policy is for time off between duty, you are responsible to make sure you've had proper rest. If you have an accident or incident, you'll be asked very detailed questions about your rest period: When did you leave work? How long did it take you to get home? to get back to work? Did you eat? How long did that take? How long did it take you to get ready to leave for work? Did you do anything else during your rest period? Your time between duty has to account for all these things, plus 8 hours. Simple. For me, that makes 10 1/2 hour when I'm at home base, 10 hours at the away base. That's time off between duty, not between flights.

[navajo]

I think the 14 hours duty day is as unsafe as the unclear 8 hours rule. Someone should bring that to journalists. I think public should know that when they catch up a flight at 7h00 am, their pilots were maybe flying since 7h00 pm the day before.

When people will die, TC will blame the pilots but the public will blame TC, not the pilots.

I do my best to be safe, I don't fly when I'm tired, but let's go TC, do your job, restrain my duty day to at least 12 hours, not 14 and of course, not 15 hours.

[navajo]

And by the way, if my sources are right, truck drivers cannot work more than 72 hours / week... and pilots, 98 hours / week....I think TC has homeworks to do...

[Widow]

AFAIK the CAR's only outline duty limitations for operations under 700. Instructing does not fall into this category. It is governed by Part IV.

Therefore those who work under part IV are inferior beings and do not need the same protection the 700 beings deserve according to TC?

I like to think that TC figures instructors are big boys and can make the good decisions ourselves with out the need to have the extra regulation it's those big jet boys that need the hand holding

Scary, considering the fact seems to be that the majority of instructors are more or less newbs who have not been educated (schooled or real world) in the rules of OH&S.

This from a 2005 submission by ALPA to the HRSDC Federal Labour Standards Review Commission:

Hours of Work

17. Maximum hours of work for labour standards purposes are regulated in Division I, Part III of the Canada Labour Code. In addition, work in the form of flight and duty time limits are regulated by the provisions of the Canadian Aviation Regulations made pursuant to the Aeronautics Act for the purposes of safety.

18. Special regulations have been made under the Canada Labour Code to address the specific conditions of the trucking, rail transport, and shipping industries. No comparable regulation addresses the needs and conditions of the air line industry and the pilot profession.

19. Pilot work typically includes periods of layover between flights during which the pilot, although not “actively” at work, is nevertheless under the control and direction of the employer and subject to rules of conduct, dress, and behaviour. The pilot is not at home and cannot freely dispose of his or her time. As a strict matter of law, this time should be included as “work” for the purposes of Part III of the Code. In addition, pilots typically are under the control and direction of the employer in a variety of scenarios (commuting, training, non-flying duties) which receive different valuations for pay purposes. As a strict matter of law, all such time should be considered “work” for the purposes of the Code.

20. Pilots are required to work long hours over extensive periods. For example, the current Canadian Aviation Regulations allow for airline pilot flight duty time periods in excess of eighty hours per week that, essentially, can only be tempered by the Labour Code averaging provisions or by a collective agreement. The situation for commercial pilots in air taxi and aerial work operations is even worse. For pilots, especially in seasonal operations, this results in long hours of work that far exceed what is deemed reasonable in Canadian society. ALPA submits that neither the provisions of the Canadian Aviation Regulations, nor the time averaging provisions of the Canada Labour Code, Part III, reflect societal norms. ALPA recommends that Labour Canada confer with aviation industry stakeholders to develop maximum hours of work protections that reflect the norms of Canadian society.

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/labour/emplo ... ef11.shtml

[ncostello]

Widow,

Thank you for this information. I spent some time researching this and was unsuccessful. It seems like a pretty big hole for the governing organizations to leave uncovered. I understand that long days/ minimal rest periods are necessary to allow completion of missions, (get back to home base). I figure that is Transport Canada's reason for allowing long days and minimum rest periods, but it seems like the many operators and the Government are dropping the ball in regulating employees max work hours/week to allow alignment w social norms. I did note that the information that you quoted was from 2005. Have you heard of any progress on this issue? (other than certain responsible companies incorporating company specific policies).

Thanks again,

Cheers.

[Widow]

Go here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... p?x_lang=e.

Type "duty" into the "NPA Title" field.

You will find Notices of Proposed Ammendments going all the way back to 1999 that are "pending legal editing". With just a brief glance, you'll find there's lots of good stuff that has been proposed and not edited for release.