PC-12 Engine Shut Down

[trey kule]

Flybaby (or anyone else who can help)

so as not to hijack the thread, would you be kind enough to PM me how to do a CADORS search on an aircraft type.

thks.

[SinkRate]

Huh...so what I gather from this is in most cases a cause comes up and then the airplane lands safely...lol
I flew her, shes a good bird. I wont disagree in ifr dep and app to mins another stove would be nice. Not to mention vectors 30 back from the airport at 3000 over a lake doesnt feel very warm and fuzzy....But all in all id do it again. You can get hit and die walking your doggy. lol. But I do agree the prop heat fails and the boots can give a fail warning.

[Check Pilot]

Like anything in life, when taking an aircraft airborne, there are risks involved. As you can see by the whining on this string, piloting an SE aircraft presents a risk when it goes flying. However, I know everyone on this forum that has learned to fly likely did so in a single engine aeroplane or helicopter. Why so few comments about that? Where are the fears expressed about that? I don't see them being expressed her on this forum.

Life itself is a risk.

Aviation's risks takes an upper place in some new pilot's thinking (and their stupid, irrational fears) - (but they are real) when they finally realize the "outs" start to add up to more than when emotions crop up when trying to figure the whole thing when going about the business of going airborne. So people go look for the tiniest infinitesimal smoking gun and blow it up into an impossible crisis like our usual global climate change terrorists do all the time. If that's you, stop flying NOW. If you are that irrational, like some here on this forum, go shoot at some other irrational ghosts, but get out of aviation.

If that's not you, carry on. If you want to make a buck at it, do like I did and retire at age 60 and persevere.

[jetflightinstructor]

XS bank:

Not in a million years would I put my family on one, nor would I put them on a PC12 IFR.

If you won' t put your family in a PC12, would you put them in a C185?

[The Orillia kid]

How about the risks involved flying a single engine floatplane from Vancouver to Vancouver Island everyday. What about if you lose the engine on a day that has big swells on the strait. what are you going to do?
do you explain the risks to your passengers?
"I really think you shouldnt take the beaver, hey but you can hop on that Twin Otter over there because it has two engines and is flown two crew"


my take on all the CADORS that were put up by flybabe shows one thing. That all the redundancies with the bells and whistles that Pilatus have put on the pc12 to alert the pilot that there is a problem...WORK!!
If the pilot follows the SOPS and what the POH tells them to do, it turns out ok.

I think the whole topic has come up about because there are certain people who didn't get a job with Ornge. I think you will find that there are alot of pilots out there who would rather fly the PC12 than a clapped out Navajo or Kingair.

[ipilot54]

Everyone is talking as though it is only their butt in the aircraft in these discussions. “I have no problem getting in a PC-12”. Well, neither do I…when the weather is nice…my decision though.

There is more than one set of regulations, one the ‘general rules’ and another, (CAR 700 series) is for commercial operations and for the most part, speak to having “fare paying passengers”; aka, the general public. We as pilots, on the other hand are suppose to know certain risks with each flight and therefore, make an educated decision as to whether or not to undertake a particular flight. The general public does NOT have the ‘education’ for the most part so our Government makes stricter rules to protect them. The poor smuck in the back doesn’t know the increased risk as he sits there as they fly over no-man’s land solid IFR in a single engine aicraft.

I learned on a single engine aircraft as most of us did (don’t know anyone who didn’t) and now as a “pilot”, I know the risk I am taking;

going single engine VFR = less risk
going single engine IFR over the central USA = increased risk,
going single engine IFR over Northern Ontario = even more risk
two fanjets = very little risk but watch out for geese,
four fanjets out there = minimal risk

We make our decisions every time we go flying.

But as I said, our Government does not trust us to make the best decisions on behalf of the public so they legislate stricter rules for operations carrying the public.

So why then, is the PC-12 NOT approved for SEIFR in Europe? Are these things not built there?
Reminds me of a commercial…let “Mikey try it first”.

The European Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA), and now the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) have not approved SEIFR.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/publi ... eature.htm

[yfly]

How about the risks involved flying a single engine floatplane from Vancouver to Vancouver Island everyday. What about if you lose the engine on a day that has big swells on the strait. what are you going to do?
do you explain the risks to your passengers?
"I really think you shouldnt take the beaver, hey but you can hop on that Twin Otter over there because it has two engines and is flown two crew"


my take on all the CADORS that were put up by flybabe shows one thing. That all the redundancies with the bells and whistles that Pilatus have put on the pc12 to alert the pilot that there is a problem...WORK!!
If the pilot follows the SOPS and what the POH tells them to do, it turns out ok.

I think the whole topic has come up about because there are certain people who didn't get a job with Ornge. I think you will find that there are alot of pilots out there who would rather fly the PC12 than a clapped out Navajo or Kingair.

There are absolutely days when a beaver shouldn't be flown across the straights. There are days, I simply wouldn't get on one. There are also days I wouldn't depart in a 4 engine jet. There are limitations to everything.

Look up the definition of redundancy. A warning light is just that, it is not an engine and does not provide redundancy for an engine.

Following a POH and following SOP's do not keep an engine running.

I am thinking you, as some on the other side are a little too biased in your opinion.

Who the hell is Ornge? That has nothing to do with the discussion.

[Just another canuck]

clapped out Navajo or Kingair.

Maybe you can define "clapped out" for me... do you mean high-time engines... or airframes... older avionics?? If properly maintained and flown within limits, at the end of the day, there are still two good engines or these airplanes.

Is there anyone here that would actually RATHER be flying a PC-12 over a King Air? I wouldn't even take it over the Navajo at this point in my career.

[teacher]

So the only thing that all that posting proved is that the warning systems that are required to be present in order to be approved for SEIFR all worked well and prevented anything from happening. Having alot of time on the PC12 it is more times than none either a false warning or the beginning of an issue. Crew diverted and all was well. Still no engine failure related fatalities on a PC12. Now, CADORS a navajo and see what you find.

When it comes down to risk and ACTUAL accident deaths and hull loss float planes are and will always be time and time again much more dangerous. They kill everyone aboard even when the engine is running, it's just the nature of landing on water. Should float flying be banned, of course not. But risk is risk and "Widow", when comparing risk it's not the engine that is the only thing to consider. Odds of survival are still amazing in a PC12. Engine hicups happen and even when flying multi turbine you would divert if the listed CADORS happened to them as well.

[Cat Driver]

going single engine VFR = less risk
going single engine IFR over the central USA = increased risk,
going single engine IFR over Northern Ontario = even more risk
two fanjets = very little risk but watch out for geese,
four fanjets out there = minimal risk

You forgot:

going single engine IFR over the mountains = even more risk.

going single engine over a large body of water beyond gliding distance of land = even more risk.

[yfly]

I get the impression that being able to tick two boxes, turbine and Glass cockpit, on their Air Canada application far outweighs any of the risk factors Cat Driver.

For the same capital outlay, I'll take a twin engine VLJ or two old Citation jets.

[jetflightinstructor]

Most dangerous job in the US

17. Alaskan Bush Pilot
Flying small planes is not necessarily dangerous. But when you?re flying in an environment where the clear sky precipitously turns into clouds and visibility drops to almost nothing without warning, the scenario of plane meeting- mountain occurs far too often. When you can?t see well, fatal crash landings into objects like trees or a suddenly rising ground take their toll. Hopefully, when the plane stops, your life doesn?t. As measured by the BLS, this is one of the most dangerous jobs. We agree.

Danger Factor: Usually when you go down, your flight?s over. Permanently. The risk here is all about the death rate, which is high.
Pay Scale: You get less than regular commercial pilots for far more risk; many average $50,000 per year.
Perk: Enjoy beautiful scenery, lots of adventure and thrills, interesting clients.
Profile: Outdoor eccentric types that like adventure and bush country.

16. U. S. President
You?re the leader of the most powerful nation in the world and make decisions that may not be popular. As the highest-profile person in the highest-profile country, you are a target for political assassins, madmen, and malcontents. And a select few among them take an extreme step: They attempt to end your life.

The president of the United States is an extremely perilous job, more so than you might expect. Let?s look at the numbers. Four presidents were assassinated: Abraham Lincoln in 1865, James Garfield in 1881, William McKinley in 1901, and John Kennedy in 1963. In addition, there were near-fatal attempts on six other presidents: Andrew Jackson in 1835, Teddy Roosevelt in 1912, Franklin Roosevelt in 1933 (as president-elect), Harry Truman in 1950, Gerald Ford in 1975, and Ronald Reagan in 1981. Do the math. There have been forty-three U. S. presidents and ten of them have been attacked. Four succeeded in killing their targeted leader, and two others in injuring him. In addition, there were other attempts that were foiled before the perpetrators got close enough for “near-miss” status. These ten attempts are only the highly publicized ones we know about.

But let?s stick with the ten listed. These widely known assassination attempts occurred on nearly one out of four presidents, a 23 percent rate, with a mortality rate of almost 10 percent. Wow. That?s dangerous. High-profile political leaders are also exposed to assassination and qualify. Examples: Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X and Robert Kennedy.

Danger Factor: Extremely high.
Pay Scale: Great pay, nice house.
Perks: Good use of willing interns.
Profile: You?re the man.

15. Offshore Oil Rigger
You?re playing with one of the most combustible materials in the world: oil. While the level of danger depends heavily on the location of the rig?a big floating man-made island?every rigger is in constant peril of explosions, drowning, accidents from heavy equipment, and kidnapping (not an uncommon occurrence). Riggers often work 16-hour shifts through the middle of the night, sometimes going as long as a day or two without sleep. If one worker in a team loses concentration, he is a danger to himself and his coworkers. With so many moving parts in the engines, clothes, fingers, arms and sometimes entire lives can be sucked into the machines. While deep gashes and serious injuries are common, fires and explosions are a rigger?s greatest fears.

The biggest danger of them all, a blowout, can be caused by something as simple as a spark from a dropped tool, but whatever ignites the highly flammable oil, the result can be a catastrophic explosion. In 2001 off the coast of Brazil, three explosions killed ten workers on the largest offshore oil rig in the world. If the seas, machinery and the explosions don?t get you, the terrorists might. In June of 2006, eight oil rig workers?one of them an American?were abducted from a rig off the coast of Nigeria. They lived through the ordeal, but that?s not always the case.

Danger Factor: A lot of pressure, a lot of flammable substances, a lot of risk. Yeah, this is dangerous.
Pay Scale: Commensurate with risk?good.
Perks: If you like water, plenty to look at.
Profile: Riggers are a tough breed.

14. Urban Cop
Okay, enough with the jokes about the donuts and coffee. Being a cop, particularly an undercover, narcotics or vice cop in a U.S. urban city, is really dangerous. You?re dealing with gangs, criminals and drug dealers who will risk everything to protect their turf and their freedom. And they won?t necessarily mind taking your life to preserve their own.

Interestingly, more cops died from traffic accidents and other incidents (81) in 2005 than were murdered on the job. Their 50 violent fatalities, however, are surprisingly few given what you would expect in America, where metropolitan cities are infested with violence. However, danger is omnipresent when your beat is the ?hood. If you happen to be in the narcotics division, where your job is to “buy and bust”?that is, go into a setup without a shield, gun or bulletproof vest?the risk is extremely high. Ditto for bomb squads. Adding to the danger are one-of-a-kind emergencies that can take lives. For example, in 2001, 23 police officers perished in one fell swoop as a result of the 9/11 terrorist attack in New York City.

Being a policeman didn?t even make the 2005 BLS list showing the top 10 most fatal jobs. But that statistic doesn?t alter what everyone already knows: Being a cop is dangerous. And its not just death and injury that hangs over a law enforcement officer, the tremendous strain of the job contributes to a high rate of alcoholism, drug use, stress-related problems and abnormally high divorce rates.

Danger Factor: High.
Pay Scale: You?re a working man and you earn every penny of what you get.
Perks: Lots of time for donuts and coffee (okay, we couldn?t help it). Good benefits and life insurance?hopefully you won?t need it.
Profile: You have to be a dedicated public servant and either love danger or not be too afraid of it.

13. Professional Fighter
Your job is to hurt your opponent so badly he can?t get up again. The problem: his job is to do the same to you. Often, to some degree, both sides are effective. And sometimes the hurt is so bad that the fighter dies. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the world of professional fighters. Badly bruised faces, bodies and egos are a frequent occurrence, while broken ribs and jaws make their share of appearances as well. These are the instant forms of injury. A more pernicious one, which can occur over a longer period of time (and could come as a result of one powerful blow) is dementia pugilista, or as it?s known in the industry, punch-drunk disease. A fighter gets hit so many times in the head over a career that his brain turns to jelly, causing involuntary shaking, slurred speech, memory loss, paranoia, and a general decrease in awareness. A 1993 study by the American Journal of Sports Medicine concluded that punch-drunk disease affects anywhere from 9 to 25 percent of all professional boxers, a pretty damning conclusion. Getting hit in the head is not healthy. A causal relationship between repeated blows to the head and degenerative brain diseases like Alzheimer?s and Parkinson?s is generally accepted as fact by doctors. Muhammad Ali, a legendary heavyweight champion, was famous for his speed and agility. However, one of his less heralded qualities was that he could take a punch. It may have worked to his disadvantage. Three brutal wars with Joe Frazier and another punishing day with Larry Holmes accumulated damage. Today, Ali moves as if he was underwater. Other great fighters, like Sugar Ray Robinson and Joe Louis, literally had the sense beat out of them.

A study originally undertaken by Manuel Vasquez and updated by Joseph Svinth charted 640 boxing deaths in the United States from January 1920 to April 2006. Even champions can go down hard. On September 17, 2005, Leavander Johnson, defending his IBF lightweight championship, dropped in the eleventh round and died five days later. But that?s just fatalities. Other studies found that one of the fighters in nearly 25 percent of boxing matches (actually, one in eight fighters) got injured. This category is not just reserved for boxers; the more brutal, less-holds barred forms of professional street fighting, like the Ultimate Fighting Championship, are even more savage and its participants even more prone to injury.

Danger Factor: Very high. When you?re getting your brains beat in by a professional trained to hurt, something bad is bound to happen.
Pay Scale: Top level fighters make a fortune; the rest eke out a living.
Perks: The ultimate thrill of sports.
Profile: The toughest guys in the roughest sport.

12. NFL Pro Football Player
Football makes our list of the most dangerous jobs not because of on-the-job fatality rates?it?s rare to hear of a pro football player dying?but because of the extremely high injury rate. When you have some of the biggest, strongest and fastest men on the planet hammering you with the full force of their prodigious bulk, the spindly legs underneath the massive upper frame take terrible punishment, especially if that?s the part of the body receiving the brunt of the impact.

Did you ever see a retired NFL player play tennis, jog or do other athletic activities? That won?t occur too often, because by the time their careers have ended, their knees, ankles, hips and various other skeletal structures have gone through so many reparative surgeries, that there is little, if any, of the original cartilage left. In other words, they?re near-cripples who barely hobble along, a far cry from the grace and power they displayed in their heyday. By the time these players are 50, they can barely even walk.

And there are other debilitating hurts?concussions (sometimes multiple ones) and spinal-cord injuries that leave players permanently disabled. There are also dislocated shoulders, broken ribs, and the pernicious effects of performance-enhancing drugs. Brooklyn-born Lyle Alzado was one such example: He developed brain cancer as a result of steroid use, dying not long after his diagnosis. But deaths on the field are rare. One exception was Minnesota Viking Korey Stringer, who on the second day of pre-season practice in July 2001, died from heatstroke. He was the only player to suffer this fate in the history of the NFL. And death from violent impact during an NFL game? Never happened.

But injuries? Big time. A 1994 Ball State University survey showed that 65 percent of NFL players who retired before the 1990s suffered an injury serious enough to require surgery, or to take them out of action for extended periods of time. Those are just the body blows; NFL players take a lot of shots to the head as well. A 2000 abstract presented to the American Academy of Neurology showed that 60 percent of former NFL players got concussions, with 26 percent of all players suffering more than one. These brain-jarring injuries will most likely lead to headaches and memory problems for the rest of their lives. When you have a job where it?s estimated that half your fellow workers retire because of injury, that says a lot. Is playing the NFL a killer job? We?d say so.

Danger Factor: The high injury rate puts a pro football player ahead of more lethal jobs, but lacking the fatality risk, not quite in the top ten. On balance, it?s on the list; it?s dangerous.
Pay Scale: Stars can make $10 million a year and up; lesser players still make bank.
Perks: Insane amounts of money, adulation, fame and all the sexy trappings of being a star. Also, it?s a sport?players live for the competition.
Profile: Big, strong, quick and talented athletes competing at the highest level.

11. Logger
You?re operating heavy electric saws, often working many stories above ground and massive trees are collapsing around you? sometimes, on top of you. In 2002, the BLS reported 104 deaths from logging, making it the highest on-the-job mortality rate per 100,000 workers (117.8 per 100,000) on their list. That?s a staggering number of fatalities for the industry, making these workers 30 times more likely to die on the job than the average American worker for that year. In 2005 that rate was 92.9 per 100,000, dropping to second place below fishing-related jobs, but not disguising the fact that this remains very dangerous work.

Most of the fatalities were due to death by falling trees, but when you?re operating heavy mechanized saws, all sorts of other bad things can occur. When you hear the call of timber! you better hope the tree is falling where it?s supposed to, and not on you. Whether # 1 or #2 on the yearly BLS fatality stats, the fact remains: lumberjacking is extremely dangerous.

Danger Factor: Extremely high. Traditionally ranks #1 or #2 on the list of most lethal jobs compiled by the BLS.
Pay Scale: Good.
Perks: Lots of fresh air.
Profile: Lumberjacks are a hardy breed.

10. Urban Firefighter
What do you say about guys who do the opposite of what everybody else does in times of danger? While we?re fleeing for our lives from an out-of-control blaze or similar emergency, firemen run into the hell storm. Is this crazy or brave? Maybe both. Whatever the case, a firemen?s job is insanely risky. Every day they put their lives on the line. And any day can be their last. Firefighters risk loss of life, smoke inhalation, terrible burns, crippling injuries when buildings collapse on them, poisoning and lung damage from inhalation of toxic materials, and extreme mental duress from the pressures of the job.

Entering burning buildings and rescuing trapped people is just part of the job. They also respond to a host of other types of calls, some of which are easy?like rescuing cats from tree branches? and some are not. In the most deadly disaster to ever hit a fire department, 343 firemen, including entire departments, lost their lives responding to the 2001 World Trade Center crisis. Firemen may sit around watching TV and pumping iron during slow periods, but never take it away from these boys. When the alarm sounds, they put it all on the line for the rest of us. You play with fire, you?re going to get burned.

Danger Factor: Any day can be a day you never forget?or never remember again.
Pay Scale: A working man?s wage.
Perks: There?s lots of downtime between calls.
Profile: Brave, crazy, or both.

9. Coal Miner
Some wake up and spit out black liquid. Coughing, breathlessness, extreme fatigue to the point that it?s an effort to even cross a room, are all side effects. In 1831, a name was put to these symptoms: black lung disease. That?s what coal miners have had to endure trying to support their families. The Appalachian coal miners, it was said, were digging their own grave. And it was not far from the truth. Black lung disease is caused by the prolonged inhalation of coal dust, an occupational hazard of coal miners. In 1969, the U.S. Congress finally weighed in on the health risks of coal miners and ordered measures to increase safety, steps that were subsequently made more lax in 1973. In 1994, a new U.S. Department of Labor rule for protecting miners from excessive dust was put into place. But still, the specter of black lung disease hangs over every coal miner who breathes in this lethal dust almost every second of his working day.

There is no cure for this disease, and though not every miner gets black lung, enough did in coal?s dark days that even today, thousands die every year from accumulated damage. That is the slow and painful death. There is the quicker way, too. Collapsed shafts bury miners alive. The worst mining disaster in American history took place on December 6, 1907 in Monogah, West Virginia. An explosion caused by the ignition of methane gas, which in turn ignited the mine?s coal dust, shattered two mine shafts. A total of 362 men lost their lives. More recently, on January 2, 2006 a pocket of gas exploded in a coal minein Sago, West Virginia, trapping a group of thirteen miners for almost two days. Only one of them, miraculously, survived.

But that?s not all a coal miner has to deal with. There is also exposure to poisonous and explosive gases, cave-ins, floods, malfunctioning mine equipment and heavy falling objects, all of which can maim or kill. From 1991-1999, an average of 21,351 coal miners per year were injured in accidents. An average of 93 people per year died during the same interval. It got worse after the millennium. The BLS reported 159 deaths in the mining sector for 2005, up from 141 in 2003 and 152 in 2004. Coal mining is one of the toughest?and most dangerous?jobs in America.

Danger Factor: High.
Pay Scale: For the work, not enough pay.
Perks: It?s a job. Often, there?s no other decent choice.
Profile: Workers are tough. They have to be?it?s one of the hardest ways to make a living.

8. Urban Street Prostitute
Your pimp is vicious and keeps you in line with regular beatings. Your johns can end up being serial killers, making you one more “quiet” stat in a police blotter. Your customers can infect you with every sexually transmitted disease available, not the least of which is AIDS. Drinking, drugs and the trappings of poverty often go hand in hand with the profession, leaving prostitutes multiple ways to find unhappy endings. And whatever money you make, you may end up giving it to your pimp or your drug habit?a temporary salve to a hard life on the streets.

Sound appealing? I didn?t think so. But this is the life of an urban street prostitute. It is impossible to quantify the fatality and injury rate of this profession, but given short-term dangers, long-term risks andthe daily punishing stress of plying your trade in the street, you have to give the gals and guys that work these hard streets credit for a tough but sad gig.

Danger Factor: High; even greater for crack whores.
Pay Scale: A lot of danger and hard work for not too much money.
Perks: Lots of sex, but not the right kind.
Profile: People from a school of hard knocks and bad breaks.

7. Bull Rider
“It?s not if you get injured, but when,” one cowboy told us. Bull riding, rodeo?s most dangerous event and America?s first extreme sport, is the ultimate test of courage for cowboys. Commentators like to call bull riding the most dangerous eight seconds in sports. That?s the minimum time a professional bull rider, using only one hand to grip his rope, must cling to a bull to have completed what?s considered a successful ride?assuming the angry animal doesn?t first dislodge the rider with a vicious jolt.

The violent shaking pounding while on top of a bull and the crash landing that greets the dislodged passenger wreaks havoc on a human body that was not built for this kind of abuse. And should the fallen rider be unlucky enough to find the roles reversed, with the bull on top and the cowboy underneath, the damage is immediate and catastrophic. This was the fate of world champion bull rider Lane Frost. After finishing a successful ride, his bull, Taking Care of Business, battered him in the side, shattering his ribs and tearing open an artery. Frost died on the ground.

Cowboys risk riding bulls like Bodacious, who was retired in his prime because of his proficiency for breaking men. In 1994, it was dealing Terry Don West a life-threatening injury; in 1995 it was Scott Breding, and then Tuff Hedeman.

The only armor cowboys wear is a protective vest that lessens the force of impact. They also wear a cowboy hat, but that can?t be trusted to ward off even a heavy rain. The bull rider?s only real defense is the rodeo clown, who is the most important person alive to him. The rodeo clown?s job is to distract the bull; that is, induce the bull to charge him instead, at least until the cowboy can scamper to safety. The clowns even manage to keep their smiles as the bulls attempt to gore them. But maybe that?s because their grins are painted on. Deaths don?t come often at the rodeo, only one or two riders die per year; but that is a lot given the relatively small number of participants. Ultimately this tough job makes the list for the severe pounding men take riding 1,500-pound angry behemoths and for their injuries from being tossed and trampled. Along with bull riders, rodeo clowns get a big nod in this killer job category.

Danger Factor: Very high. Death, serious injury, chronic injury?bull riding has it all.
Pay: The Professional Bull Riders association, created in 1992, awards more than $95 million in prize money. Top riders have earned over $3 million dollars, not including endorsements.
Perks: Tremendous thrill; it?s what cowboys do. As one cowboy said, “I live for those eight seconds.”
Profile: Y?all gotta be some tough chili-eatin? cowboys to ride bulls.

6. Alaskan Crab Fisherman
In 2005, the BLS ranked fishing as the most fatality-ridden job, with 118.4 fatalities per 100,000, almost 30 times the rate of the average worker. But those statistics are for fishing in general, not for Alaskan crab fishing, which is infinitely more dangerous?about 400 fatalities per 100,000. The danger is threefold: the Alaskan fishermen work in hellacious weather that can toss them overboard to their death; the fishing boats take on so much weight from the 750 pound fishing traps that they become unstable and prone to capsizing; and the injuries they sustain from working with heavy machinery and gear can be crippling. Crab fishermen ply their trade in some of the worst and most treacherous conditions on earth: subzero temperatures, frigid gale-force winds, tumultuous seas with 40-foot swells, and ice that can build up so thick it sometimes capsizes the boat. To maximize the yield for a season that lasts only three or four weeks (sometimes two months), crabbers squeeze every possible human hour into their workday, working as much as 22-hour days in extreme conditions?they fear that while they?re sleeping, someone else is pulling in that catch. This mad dash through the season magnifies the risks even more; many crabbers take to using cocaine to stay awake for this marathon. It?s not uncommon for one of the half-ton or heavier crab traps, called “pots,” and maneuvered by hydraulic cranes, to smash into a fisherman. That?s what happened to Vernon Rosendahl in the 2003 season when he was knocked overboard. One of his crewmates donned a thick, insulatedsurvival suit and jumped in to save him. Both men disappeared for a time, so a third crewmember hopped overboard. Everyone was back on deck a few minutes later, but Rosendahl?s 20 minutes of exposure in the frighteningly cold water was too long to recover from. He died on board. In the 1995 season, the Northwest Mariner sank hours after leaving dock in vicious storms. Only two of the six bodies were recovered?they were found dead of hypothermia, floating in a lifeboat. Almost everyone who crabs gets injured at some point during the season, and there?s always a chance that a giant wave or a gust of icy air will knock them into the water where there?s little chance of rescue. Dangerous work? Unbelievably so.

Danger Factor: Very high. When you go for a swim, they rarely find you.
Pay Scale: Crabbers can make $15,000 to as much as $80,000.
Perks: What?s not to like? Spend one or two months working, ten or eleven months vacationing. This is a great ratio in anyone?s book.
Profile: You have to be fearless and motivated.


5. Soldier In Battle
If you?re in the live theater of combat, death is all around. Your ticket can get punched from all sorts of projectiles?bullets, bombs, missiles?or you can get maimed. Landmines, booby traps, snipers are only some of the ways you can meet disaster and none of them are pretty. Usually, you never see it coming. It can come from friendly fire or those who may or may not be friendlies. In Iraq, as was often the case in Vietnam, the front line is not necessarily on a traditional battlefield, but often on the street, where you don?t know who your enemy is?until it?s too late. Your government may decide to use chemical warfare (such as napalm and Agent Orange) in complete disregard of your own well-being. Face it, you?re a pawn and you?re expendable for the greater cause.

The duress of killing and watching people get killed can get to you. If the conditions are continually savage, or you?re fighting in places where you don?t even understand why the enemy is the enemy, other things can break you down. You can be your own worst enemy. In Vietnam, one soldier we interviewed told us that of the nine men in his patrol who died, five of them were from overdoses.

Of course, how dangerous the soldiering is depends on how close you are to the action and its intensity. For example, if you?re a cook in an army training center, the risk of getting burnt from inadvisably picking up a hot potato doesn?t compare with a medic who marches into fire as a noncombatant, to save the lives of the fallen. Elite units like Delta Force, the Navy Seals, and private mercenary units all get nods for extra risk. U.N. peacekeepers, operating under Byzantine rules, suffer the fate of being unable to defend themselves, despite being shot at. Ditto the medics?they?re not looking to kill, just to save lives. But to the other side, they?re still the enemy.

Danger Factor: Extremely high. Danger lurks everywhere, even from friendly fire.
Pay Scale: Minimal.
Perks: Foreign travel? I guess. Learning to be a man? I guess.
Profile: Allures may be patriotism, a solid job with benefits, idealism or escape from home, a bad life or the ghetto.

4. Daredevil
Not to be confused with a movie stuntman, the daredevil, almost by definition, crosses the boundary from stunt to high risk. Daredevils include risk-taking pioneers doing death-defying feats, from tightrope walkers parading over unimaginable heights, to early aviation pioneers, to fearless men jumping over waterfalls. For example, there was Sam Patch, who in 1829 was the first to jump from the top of Niagara Falls into the river below?and live. A few days later, he did it a second time and survived to tell about it, for a little while at least. A short time later he died jumping the 100-foot high Upper Falls in Rochester; he dislocated both shoulders upon impact and drowned in the river below. Many daredevils perform acts that seem more dangerous than they are? or on second thought, maybe they are as dangerous. Take Evel Knievel. He became a huge draw in the 70s thanks to stunts that were every bit as crazy as they looked. He attempted seemingly impossible stunts on a motorcycle, like flying over the fountain at Caesars Palace in Las Vegas or over Idaho?s Snake River Canyon. In the process, he broke dozens of bones, acquired concussions, went into comas and became a star. The real miracle was that he survived at all. Evel?s son, Robbie Knievel, using more advanced bikes and better planning, kept his father?s daredevil tradition alive, setting 20 world records in the process.

For ultimate thrill seekers, pushing the envelope on danger is a rush of pure adrenaline they can?t seem to get enough of. The danger factor depends on the feat attempted, but we can probably all agree that daredevils flirt with serious injury and death every time they attempt a high risk stunt.

Danger Factor: From dangerous to more dangerous.
Pay Scale: Unless you?re a great self-promoter, may not be all that much.
Perks: The thrill of danger and death.
Profile: You have to be crazy.

3. Narcotics Dealer
The world of a drug dealer is filled with violence, desperate people, and so many minefields that few dealers make it out of their profession in one piece, let alone alive. The customers who buy their products are addicts of the worst order, prone to do anything to anyone to get their fix?one more potential danger to the hand, so to speak, that feeds them. Dealers amass power, money and influence as their business grows.

Each step toward success in their business exposes them to further hazards: competition from newer players, bigger players, overly ambitious partners or lower tier associates who think a different configuration at the top is needed. Other hazards include the violence in the drug milieu, the law and ultimately themselves. If the dealer becomes his own customer, the accompanying megalomania, grandeur and delusional paranoia will soon level his playing field. There are no stats to rely on, but anecdotally, the score is easy to tally. A rare few make it through their career unscathed. It?s like ordering Chinese takeout. You want A, B or C? You either get maimed, killed or you go to prison.

Columbian drug lord Pablo Escobar lived the high life?power, women, unbelievable riches, fame?but died ignominiously (as most drug kingpins do), gunned down like a hunted animal. The unforgettable Tony Montana, portrayed by Al Pacino in the movie Scarface, had it all until he became his own best customer. He died in a hail of bullets, his face powdered by coke. If you?re the guy low on the food chain, you?re prone to getting the finger pointed at you if things go bad?or the gun pointed at you if you run your mouth the wrong way or get into the wrong situation. If you?re the man up high, you?re a target for everyone?law enforcement, competitors, disgruntled customers, the laws of the street, and your own products. Play Russian roulette too often, you?re going to catch the wrong cylinder.

Danger Factor: Extremely high. You have to watch your back. Everyone is your potential enemy.
Pay Scale: At low levels, good, quick money. Tax free! At high levels, rich beyond your wildest dreams.
Perks: When it?s good, it doesn?t get any better: money, power, women, luxury.
Profile: Guys who like playing a dangerous game.

2. Himalayan Mountain Climber
The ultimate quest in Himalayan mountaineering is to climb all fourteen 8,000-square-meter peaks. Only six people have achieved this. The rest have either died trying or are still working on a task that?s near suicidal. Mount Everest is the most notorious of the Himalayan climbs. It is the burial place to many would-be summiteers that didn?t have the good sense?or good luck?to get back down the mountain alive. But the most fearsome peak of them all is Annapurna. The harsh statistical reality is this: One in two people who attempt this climb die. We call that dangerous. Plummeting off cliffs, through crevasses, being buried by avalanches, freezing to death, pulmonary and cerebral edema, disorientation at the highest altitudes and then freezing to death?there are lots of ways to go on an 8,000-er. If you do make it off the mountain alive, you may not have use of all the limbs you started with: Severe frostbite, gangrene, and other fearsome ailments can take their toll. Himalayan mountain climbers are thrill seekers, obsessed men who love nature and the outdoors and have an innate need to measure themselves against the most forbidding terrain in the world. They make their living not on the climbs themselves but on the auxiliary benefits of their feats: through endorsements from outdoor outfitters and clothing suppliers, magazine and book writing and as guides to adventurous amateurs. When the greatest climbers in this profession regularly meet death on the mountain, that?s dangerous. You like your life? Choose another profession.

Danger Factor: Insanely high.
Pay Scale: Difficult to get sponsors, it can cost you money?or your life?to get your rep going.
Perks: Getting to the top of the world and achieving what few others have done is one of the best feelings imaginable.
Profile: Adventurers of the highest order; requires top-notch training and fitness, toughness, savvy and experience.

1. Suicide Assailant
This is the most dangerous of all occupations and one that probably attracts the fewest applicants. The fundamental requirement, by definition alone, is to sacrifice your life while completing your task. Survival rate is practically nil. You have to be either a real idiot to fail, or suddenly wake up and realize that maybe this job is not the best idea. Whether you?re talking Japanese kamikaze pilots in World War II, Al-Qaeda car-bomber or other type of violent self-sacrificial act, the fatality rate is almost perfect.

Danger Factor: Nothing more dangerous than a job where you only succeed by dying.
Pay Scale: Whatever it is, you won?t get to enjoy it.
Perks: Free burial.
Profile: Fanatic

[Cat Driver]

How do we rate what is dangerous and what is less dangerous in flying airplanes for a living.

Here are some of the flying jobs I survived without a scratch.

Crop dusting both fixed and rotary wing: 7 years.

Aerial fire suppression water scooper: 15 years.

Air display flying : 7 years.

Flying in war zones in Africa: Hard to put a year factor to that one but for sure some risky places, did 13 African tours..

Now which of the above were the highest risk?

[jetflightinstructor]

An incredibely nice video about this bush pilots life and history.

It is said at the beginning of the video that Bush pilot is the third most dangerous job in the US.

If you are ready to travel in a bush airplane, and not in a PC12, but may have a deductive reasoning disorder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaqhTn7xB8E


If we had to follow the Cat driver' s and the like advices concerning safety, we would have to ground the bush airplanes.

According the statistics, what are your risk to die in a Beaver? And in a PC12?

I beleive you are not being very honnest here.

And I knew you will use the "I survived ME so I am right".

[Cat Driver]

If we had to follow the Cat driver' s and the like advices concerning safety, we would have to ground the bush airplanes.

Really?

According the statistics, what are your risk to die in a Beaver? And in a PC12?

That is a tough one to answer.

I beleive you are not being very honnest here.

What exactly did I say that was dishonest?

And I knew you will use the "I survived ME so I am right".

Where did I ever claim that?

By the way how did Oren Hudson manage to stay alive?

Just to poke you with a stick jetflightinstructor I was flying DC3's on wheel skis in the high Arctic back in the days when even the maps were not completely accurate and we did it without any of the modern nav aids that are available today.

That is the truth jetflightinstructor so what exactly is your problem with someone relating their aviation experiences, do you think it would be better if I were to say nothing for fear of some jetflightinstructor type putting me down because they have a different background?

[xsbank]

I won't cross the straits in a Beaver if the w/x sucks.
I won't fly any single IFR at night.
I won't fly on Aeroflot or some Mexican airlines.
I won't work for Voyageur.
I won't fly in a SE airplane without survival equipment.
I won't fly in a floatplane without wearing a flotation device.
I won't fly in an airliner in the back seat.
I won't fly in a single engine jet airliner, either, and none of you nimrods has had the balls to touch that one yet.

Thank you Flybabe, you made my argument.

Fly them if you wish, Aviation Gods, but you didn't buy or design the PC12, somebody trying to save money did. The PT6 is a good engine, but nobody has designed a great engine yet.

Fly a PC12 and practice your emergencies and your QRH knowledge.

EASA is right.

Oh yeah, kudos to all the pilots who declared an emergency or 'PAN,' and boo to all of you with engine anomalies in a single engine aircraft with passengers on board, who did the macho thing and didn't. You are dorks.

[Doc]

I don't dislike the PC12. I don't agree with the way they are operated. Therefore, I wouldn't let any of my family members fly in one. And, that's my decision. Not yours.
The biggest weak spot in the operation of the PC12 is, IMHO, the departure limits. That, coupled with the mentality of the companies who operate them makes me treat them the way a vampire treats the cross.
I must question the common sense of anybody willing to depart in 100 feet (or less) and 1/2 a mile in ANY single engine aircraft. Fate Is The Hunter. One of these days.......

[AuxBatOn]

I don't dislike the PC12. I don't agree with the way they are operated. Therefore, I wouldn't let any of my family members fly in one. And, that's my decision. Not yours.
The biggest weak spot in the operation of the PC12 is, IMHO, the departure limits. That, coupled with the mentality of the companies who operate them makes me treat them the way a vampire treats the cross.
I must question the common sense of anybody willing to depart in 100 feet (or less) and 1/2 a mile in ANY single engine aircraft. Fate Is The Hunter. One of these days.......

I guess a solution would be to create a new rule stating that a single engine airplane cannot depart IFR if the weather conditions at the take off time are below the lowest usuable approach minimums. But most people here would complain that it makes pilots robots, and remove their ability to take a decision.

[Doc]

Auxbat....with some of the sparkling examples of pilot's decision making capabilities of late....that may not be a bad starting point. In a lot of places, 1/2 mile vis is below the mighty approach ban limits. So, if ya were to have an engine calf, even in a twin, you might not be able to come back legally in any instance. If that makes sense to anyone, you're just not getting it.

[jetflightinstructor]

I won't cross the straits in a Beaver if the w/x sucks.
I won't fly any single IFR at night.
I won't fly on Aeroflot or some Mexican airlines.
I won't work for Voyageur.
I won't fly in a SE airplane without survival equipment.
I won't fly in a floatplane without wearing a flotation device.
I won't fly in an airliner in the back seat.
I won't fly in a single engine jet airliner, either, and none of you nimrods has had the balls to touch that one yet.

Thanks. That is exactly my point!!!
You said you will fly in a floatplane wearing a flotation device, but not in a single jet ailiner (PC12?...)!
You guys are so focused against the PC12, because early in you career you didn' t fly one (but a navajo or a beaver instead, wich is not safer than a PC12!!!!!!), that now what you say doesn' t make any sense!!!!
Why? Because you have more chance to die in a bush airplane in VMC (even if you wear a flotation device) than in a PC12 IMC.

Fly them if you wish, Aviation Gods, but you didn't buy or design the PC12, somebody trying to save money did.

I didn' t know that in your mind, there is such a thing: Aviation Gods... hehe... interesting.
Alright, if somebody designed and produced the PC12, it was to make money, not too save money. When you sell your product, that is to make money, saving money when you sell doesn' t make any sense.

My dear Cat: you missed my point. And you continue. We don' t justify and idea, or an airplane we have never flown with its own life. Everything you say in this forum is justified by the fact that you have experience and you have survived. So in all subject and on everything, you keep saying you are right because you have experience. It doesn' t make any sense, because if somebody has more fly time than you, and disagree, he is right then!
Statistics, reallity, deductive reasoning is the key. This is the difference between middle age and now. This is the difference between obscurantism and rationality. This is the difference between our feelings, subjective, and objectivity, observation.

I beleive in statistics. And it says that you have more "chance" to crash with a bush airplane VMC than with a PC12 IMC.
And me I prefer no crash, than a crash with a flotation device, especially when you see that when you fly in the bush you don' t always crash in water. No offence widow, wearing this device is better than nothing, and for sure could save somebody life.

And what some say against the PC12 here look like a lawsuit against witches.

[yfly]

I beleive in statistics. And it says that you have more "chance" to crash with a bush airplane VMC than with a PC12 IMC.

Please post those statistics as I have never seen "bush planes" vs PC 12's statistically compared. I wonder if they are separated geographically and turbine vs piston as well? Can you also cite the source of the study.

Thanks jetflightinstructor.

[teacher]

Just open the latest aviation safety letter or look back at the last few years and start counting the grim stats. I hate to go there but you asked. It's a little late today but I'll get on it the next chance I get.

[short bus]

You guys are so focused against the PC12, because early in you career you didn' t fly one

pretty sure these guys were flying long before the pc12 came along.

[Slats]

Simply put if we were to ban SEIFR in factory built aircraft in commercial service due to the risk we would have to ban float flying. There is NO comparison when it comes to risk and loss of life. There is a huge difference in the type of operation but risk and safety are the same regardless.

I don't think I agree with this ... of course, it all depends on training and experience but ... when you have an engine failure SEIFR, finding a good place to glide down is likely to be near impossible and post-impact fire is a huge added threat to life and limb. Not so with floatplanes.

Maybe on the coast or in northern Ontario where lakes are a dime a dozen, but not the case where I fly......aggressive terrain and very rarely water of any consequence underneath me. My fan packs it in and my odds are pretty crappy, especially with a canoe on the side 50% of the time......I'd be more than happy with just one single PT6 (as opposed to the old round bastard out front) for more than one reason.

[LifeJet]

I don't dislike the PC12. I don't agree with the way they are operated. Therefore, I wouldn't let any of my family members fly in one. And, that's my decision. Not yours.

Not in a million years would I put my family on a PC12 IFR...

Deal with it.

Ok, ladies and gentlemen lets throw a hypothetical out there...

Lets say your wife, son, daughter, or grandma has been hit by a car. They have internal bleeding. They need to be medevac'd to a major trauma center for surgery. The ambulance takes the two of you to the airport to meet the aircraft and...

oh wait...

Its a PILATUS!

Critical Care Flight Paramedics, ready to go.

You say... NO! I am an aviation expert, and I'm not letting my wife, son, daughter, grandma, or even my Mexican housekeeper near that thing.

Single Engine IFR is UNSAFE!

Call Voyageur...

Shit, even dispatch an MU-2, or that clapped out King Air 90 from Fort Francis...

I don't care but it will be a hot winters day in Sour Outlook before my family gets on that death trap.

Not in a million years...