Rumor

[sepia]

the same pilots that took 40% pay cuts, when no one else did are the ones that are going to drive the company into CCAA? How enlightened of you.

[A330]

Alpha is absolutely right, it might not be what people want to hear or believe but it's the truth. Legacy companies are in the middle of major adjustments. Look at the auto industry and the US carriers. Fixed expenses cannot be sustained. Pensions, health benefits and the like are going to be revised. Old rules don't apply anymore and people have to face new realities. These times of financial crisis and change, wash away the excesses, and adjust inefficient companies. AC is an inefficient union plagued sloth and will adjust by negotiation or implementation.

IMO, the pilot group is very capable, professional and the best asset to the company. Outside the flight deck, it's basically a mess. It's mis managed, union controlled, unmotivated, uninnovative and needs a drastic facelift. New motivated frontline employees, modern management policy, and a fresh new direction is required. How is the question.

[rudder]

the same pilots that took 40% pay cuts...

BS

[tonysoprano]

And all this time I thought it was bad fuel hedging, currency exchange, too many management bonuses, too many so called managers running around with nothing to do and not to mention a group of vulture companies that have stripped this company down to nothing and stolen everything they could AND they are not done yet. I think the labour departments have given all they could.The few bad attitudes left will never change.

[JazzJetDriver]

Earlier in this thread massey1 stated, "the former AO pilots are holding on to a silly dream. we would all be better off without them"

I think I know what he/she is referring to but I would love to hear it from him/her.

Is it because the Air Ontario pilots are seeking to right a wrong committed by a section of Air Canada pilots over a process that was initiated by same pilots, a process that when completed, was not to their liking and decided to walk away without any regard of their committment to abide by the ruling. BTW, things are going swimmingly for the AO guys right now, Pulley et al must be doing a spot of perspiring right now.

Massey1, I would suggest that before you go making comments like this, you take the time to learn more about the situation and the Air Ontario pilots than you seem to know so little of. For one, did you know that it was the Air Ontario pilots that led the way in obtaining one of the best North American collective agreements for a regional airline, I bet not. It took some of those guys 4 strikes so that you could enjoy a great working lifestyle...how many times have you walked the picket line I wonder?

If you are not prepared to put up, then shut up.

[RFN]

I would venture to say that most of us posting / or reading this board have heard most of one side or the other in the whole AO / ACPA / Picher affair. I for one know that I have never heard the other side, and don't know the details because in '95 I was not in the industry.

I believe that charging headlong into another drawn out discussion of an issue that is so divisive, is completely futile, and only perpetuates the stupid "read hat and then look down" bullshit that we can't seem to get over.

If we can't ditch that adversarial, "me first" approach towards dealing with eachother, then we are an even easier target this year.

IMHO leave the Picher affair to the courts, where it already is. No amount of dick waving will change the outcome.

[alpha]

As I stated in an earlier post regarding inside perspective on whats ailing Air Canada. It seems to have created some confusion regarding my comment on the pilots group fighting like school kids....what is meant by that comment is the ongoing infighting between the OAC pilots and the CPA pilots over seniority issues. On another note......I'm very worried about another union group...the CAW! God help us all if Ken Lewenza is representing them this summer. If he is....I guess we can count on a long drawn out strike, which will put us into CCAA guaranteed. I hope we can all think this through rationally and hopefully common sense will prevail. I'm sure most of us have a good idea of what the challenges are in this industry....let's look at the big picture here and not be distracted by the small stuff. At the end of the day.....we all want a healthy company going forward.....correct?

[tonysoprano]

Two issues with parallel effects for us guys at mainline.
One is the merger.
The other is the AO lawsuit.
These issues will not go away until a)The ex Canadian pilots are retired and b)The AO senior pilots are retired. In other words, until the threat is removed. Until then, no changes. Give it another 5 years. If the AO lawsuit is decided in favor of AO guys, don't expect any warm and cozy relationship with mainline. You think it's bad now.... All you young guys pay close attention.

[C-FABH]

Fifth, a spoiled pilots group....unbelievable sense of entitlement..... still fighting like school kids. If any group pushes Air Canada to CCAA....this will be the group.

Pretty much everything you said made sense, except for what I bolded. Now I'm not an AC employee, or a fan, but you have got to be kidding me if you expect me to buy this little tidbit. Seriously!?

Now you might not be an AC employee, or a fan... but are you a pilot?

[Inverted2]

Can someone fill me in on this lawsuit? I know it started way before I started flying, but wasn't it supposed to go to court by now? Are they constantly delaying it to the point that it will likely be thrown out of court anyway? I would imagine the amount of money spent on lawyers by now would be immense.

[tonysoprano]

google.

['effin hippie]

Here is the actual document: http://www.nelligan.ca/e/PDF/ACPA32601.pdf

1. AO and a number of other regional carriers and Air Canada were all members of CALPA.

2.AO and others merged with AC during the time all were CALPA members.

3.CALPA had specific rules governing seniority lists and, in the event of airline mergers, the merger of the seniority lists.

4. After meetings between AO, AC and other regionals CALPA representatives, the specific locals were unable to come to an agreement on the merger of the seniority lists.

5. The issue went to binding arbitration, Picher was the arbitrator. An award (ie. a merger of the seniority lists) was made.

6. Rather than accept the Picher award, AC pilots broke with CALPA and formed ACPA.

7. AO guys and others sue AC pilots for breach of contract.

Did I miss anything?

Don't know enough about law to know if there even is another side.

ef

[Jastapilot]

Fifth, a spoiled pilots group....unbelievable sense of entitlement..... still fighting like school kids. If any group pushes Air Canada to CCAA....this will be the group.

Pretty much everything you said made sense, except for what I bolded. Now I'm not an AC employee, or a fan, but you have got to be kidding me if you expect me to buy this little tidbit. Seriously!?

Now you might not be an AC employee, or a fan... but are you a pilot?

Dag-nabbit! Yous gots meh.

[tonysoprano]

Fifth, a spoiled pilots group....unbelievable sense of entitlement..... still fighting like school kids. If any group pushes Air Canada to CCAA....this will be the group.

I think you've just been proved wrong.

[JZA]

These issues will not go away until a)The ex Canadian pilots are retired and b)The AO senior pilots are retired.

You can probably add to that list that these issues will not go away until c) The "OAC" pilots are retired.
It's going to be a few years unfortunately before the pilot group is cleansed.

[tonysoprano]

ooohhh.

[acidgambit]

narrow body all to ac jazz.... don't think that'll happen. AC jazz's hangars won't be able to hold them.

[Jastapilot]

I forgot about this thread. I was chatting with a Jazz captain last week, and he perpetuated the EMB rumour. Apparently it's 'in negotiations' right now. Just say'n.

[KAG]

In regards to Jazz getting the narrow body flying, IMHO it won’t happen.
Maybe back when Jazz and AC were owned by ACE, but not now. If I understand it correctly Jazz actually only owns a few clapped out Dash’s, leased RJ’s and a sweet CPA. IMO, the Jazz CPA was used by ACE as a money shuffle to make Jazz numbers look great, and make the JAZZ IPO look like a solid buy. How much longer is that needed let alone sustainable?
Jazz uses the AC reservation system, ground handlers, and gate agents. As a company Jazz actually couldn’t operate on it’s own at it’s current size if AC were to go under. At least not for a while until they got the proper infrastructure in place, and that doesn’t happen over night.
What’s to say if AC does go into CCAA and they decide to do the Jet flying in house (they do have 60 EMJ’s, and could get more) and leave only the prop flying left? Or worse contract it out to the lowest bidder like some tier 3’s?
looking down the road what happens with ACE long gone and the CPA is due in 2015?

Besides, what makes Jazz cheaper is the cost structure (Salaries) and who wants to see our industry degraded even more by having A320 drivers making Dash 8 wages? Not me.
If something HAS to give, it should be Jazz. Sure it’s going to hurt but the industry would be better off in the long run.

Two issues with parallel effects for us guys at mainline.
One is the merger.
The other is the AO lawsuit.
These issues will not go away until a)The ex Canadian pilots are retired and b)The AO senior pilots are retired. In other words, until the threat is removed. Until then, no changes. Give it another 5 years. If the AO lawsuit is decided in favor of AO guys, don't expect any warm and cozy relationship with mainline. You think it's bad now.... All you young guys pay close attention.

Tony, assuming I read this right (If I haven’t then I apologize), I have to ask... If the AO guys win the lawsuit are you threatening the wanna be AC guys over at Jazz? What does any young guy/gal have to do with that lawsuit? If a judge does find in favor of the AO pilots, it proves the sued AC pilots were clearly in the wrong.
Either way it has NOTHING to do with the newer generation of Jazz pilots (or the other regional drivers for that matter), nor should either outcome effect how their treated.

[hithere]

when is the AO lawsuit going to be settled?

[Inverted2]

According to several guys in the know it's this fall, of course they said the same thing last year, but they said it's this Sept or Oct.

[tonysoprano]

KAG.

Tony, assuming I read this right (If I haven’t then I apologize), I have to ask... If the AO guys win the lawsuit are you threatening the wanna be AC guys over at Jazz? What does any young guy/gal have to do with that lawsuit? If a judge does find in favor of the AO pilots, it proves the sued AC pilots were clearly in the wrong.
Either way it has NOTHING to do with the newer generation of Jazz pilots (or the other regional drivers for that matter), nor should either outcome effect how their treated.

I'm mainly referring to the little perks that Jazz pilots now enjoy in the flow through system such as seniority and automatic interview process. ACPA may have a say in how that gets handled, ie remove it. I realize this has nothing to do with the younger Jazz pilots but there is the possibility that ACPA might somehow want to reciprocate some damage to ALPA. Only my opinion. I don't speak for ACPA. I can tell you that as a former Jazz myself I get asked many times whether I am part of the lawsuit. Kind of gives you an idea about the animosity and lack of understanding by some AC seniors about this whole thing.

[rudder]

when is the AO lawsuit going to be settled?

If saner minds prevailed - by Labour Day. Otherwise, 2021 or when all litigants are deceased (whichever comes sooner )

[JazzJetDriver]

Tony Soprano said, "I can tell you that as a former Jazz myself I get asked many times whether I am part of the lawsuit."

Yes you are, in the sense that you are making a non-voluntary financial contribution to the defense fund whether you like it or not.

Funny how ACPA spouts how democratic they are but displays communistic practices.

[Jaques Strappe]

Tony Soprano said, "I can tell you that as a former Jazz myself I get asked many times whether I am part of the lawsuit."

Yes you are, in the sense that you are making a non-voluntary financial contribution to the defense fund whether you like it or not.

Funny how ACPA spouts how democratic they are but displays communistic practices.

Wow......I guess you would know, not being a member of ACPA and all. Actually, this was voted on and supported by the group.

I forgot about this thread. I was chatting with a Jazz captain last week, and he perpetuated the EMB rumour. Apparently it's 'in negotiations' right now. Just say'n.

Yeah, that rumor is always perpetuated, however, ACPA has a letter on file signed by Calin that the Embraer will remain in the mainline fleet. In fact, the new TA requires the company to repatriate some of the flying from Jazz. Haaa Haaa.....I just realized that I stated we have a letter from Calin. As if that is worth the paper it is written on! Oh well, carry on.