Flying hungover or not waiting the manditory 8 hours after.

[Keepitsafe]

You go out for a beer after work, and you've told yourself its only going to be a couple...then some flying buds that don't have to work the next day or just like drinking as much as you do show up and want you to hang around so they buy you a couple... the night goes on and pretty soon your good intentions are gone...you are pissed and have to work in the morning. A scenario that has been played out in bars across Canada and around the world since airplanes were invented.

What can really help when you see someone at work that YOU THINK has pushed it too far is to go right up to them and say something like "hey man, I don't think you are doing yourself any favours by being down here right now" and let them respond.

They might just need that little eye opener that someone has noticed. Its easier to say to yourself "yeah, what the f am I doing here?" once you've been busted by a friend or co-worker.

[xsbank]

I used to work for a guy in Sask. who flew the Stoneboat with a 40# bottle of rye under the seat. He had his "faithful indian companion" and swamper go with him - who could do a creditable job of straight and level while the 'boss' pounded back the rye.

Once the 'boss' passed out and the cojo flew way hell and gone into the NWT before the fuel got pretty thin. He woke up the boozer to do the landing but luckily they found some drums on the lake. Problem was, they had no clue where they were and no maps anyway. Ended up finding a cabin with someone in it who told them where they were.

I quit. I was too young to understand the full import of what I saw. Now I would have ZERO tolerance.

Talk to him, give him one chance, then blow the whistle.

[NorthFlyer]

Hey Folks,
I'd blow the horn on this fool! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGKhUJoC ... re=related
Ciao

[propwashed]

Fitness of Flight Crew Members

602.02 No operator of an aircraft shall require any person to act as a flight crew member and no person shall act as a flight crew member, if either the person or the operator has any reason to believe, having regard to the circumstances of the particular flight to be undertaken, that the person

(a) is suffering or is likely to suffer from fatigue; or

(b) is otherwise unfit to perform properly the person's duties as a flight crew member.


Alcohol or Drugs - Crew Members

602.03 No person shall act as a crew member of an aircraft

(a) within eight hours after consuming an alcoholic beverage;

(b) while under the influence of alcohol; or

(c) while using any drug that impairs the person's faculties to the extent that the safety of the aircraft or of persons on board the aircraft is endangered in any way.


Id say that being severely hung violates CARS 602.02 as "likely to suffer from fatigue". Also note that 602.03 (b) states "while under the influence of alcohol". You can drink your ass off till 2am and still be under the influence at 10am, 8hr rule or not.

Some of the CARS rules can be argued, bent, etc. but this one can't without looking like an IDIOT. I would hope my employer would fire my ass if I EVER showed up for work tipsy... even hungover.

I'm sure most pilots here know the importance of being on their game each day. Our passengers expect professionals, and we should act like proffessionals or get a job that doesn't carry the responsibility of other people's lives.

I second the poster that suggested taking the guy out for coffee and giving it to him straight. If that doesn't do it report to the boss/CP. The only faction of industry that might chastize you are the few morons like Jamesbay, but they are not credible, and drag down the professionalism of working pilots as a whole. Be a man (or woman) and report drunk drivers... no good employer or future employer or fellow pilot will look down on you for that - quite the opposite I should hope. And if they do, you dont want to work for them anyway.

PW

[Cat Driver]

When I was a habitual drunk my problem flying was not flying actually drunk it was trying to perform to a safe standard with a hangover.

If you get really drunk and get to bed and then have eight hours sleep you can still be sick as a dog all the next day.

Pilots drinking excessively and flying the next day was quite common in some sectors of aviation, and I would not be surprised if it still is.

Bottom line is you have two choices.

You can be a heavy drinker or you can be a pilot, but not both....in my opinion of course.

[jamesbay]

Listen up there Propwashed ya **ckhead! Before ya go spewing off the mouth with your unfounded dribble that seems to leaking out of your mouth, my first post ended with this . Never did I say I was an advocate of showing up half in the bag ya **ck. If that is what you deciphered from what I wrote then your a real shitty judge of character. My point was that in the years I have flown in the bush I have witnessed an "old school" attitude that has lent to alot of alcoholics that the new generation of guys flying now would have difficulty understanding. Even with that, I don't condone what the subject describes. On days off I may drink just as many beers as the next guy and when it comes to my rotation on if I drink a beer with my dinner after 8 hours of flying that's none of your goddam business or anyone elses for that matter. I'm as responsible as the next guy and pride myself with the flying that I accomplish everyday. So kiss my ass there "junior"!

jb

[Cat Driver]

jamesbay, you may not have a drinking problem but if you keep this up you will need anger management counseling.

[jamesbay]

Hahaha...yeah Cat, well my obvious distasteful poor attempt at a little bit of humour touched a nerve and now I have to back pedal like a mother-**cker to redeem myself. ryerye for the record " not that it's any consellation now" but I will say it anyway, I obviously don't know the depth "really" of your scenario but you obviously felt it was warranted to bring up the subject and ask for advice, so hat's off to ya. I have been more thick-skinned in the past just because I was exposed alot more to this scenario where there was probably alot higher percentile of seasoned drinkers. Is it safe practice? , hell no, but I'm looking at 20 year vets that live like that and always got the job done and never stumbled at it. "Good mentors?" Well...I don't know that I was ever given bad advice from a flying stand-point, for an "outsider" looking in, I'm sure alot of pilots would pick apart the whole picture and wouldn't beable to separate the advice for the fact all they would maybe see was a group of good ol' boys that like to get atter more than not. Anyway take that for what it's worth.

jb

[propwashed]

Woa there Jamesbay, didn't mean to hurt your little feelings, I'm sorry you got your knickers in a bunch.

Before you lose too much sleep, that post was my opinion on adressing unfit pilots, not my personal grudge on you, I can barely spare the effort to adress this post to you now. Anyone who would tell a "junior" to move along rather than do whats right is a moron. And you did that.... so one little sentence was for you, sorry for saying what everyone was thinking. Suck it up princess. As for "old school" antics, I understand it, and support not tolerating it... unlike you.

If it bothers you, "you" might want to move along.

Hahaha...yeah Cat, well my obvious distasteful poor attempt at a little bit of humour touched a nerve and now I have to back pedal like a mother-**cker

If anyone thought you were being funny, you wouldn't be in a fuss now would you. And you wouldn't feel like you need to backpaddle.

Never did I say I was an advocate of showing up half in the bag ya **ck

No, but you did suggest that it should be tolerated (or leave) when someone IS half in the bag. And THAT is why is why I discredited you, and why you are having a little tantrum. Nobody said you cant have a beer with your dinner, or that they care, thats not what this is about. You can have milk too if it makes you happy. As for the unfounded dripple leaking from my mouth, its along the same lines as every other post in this thread but yours so maybe you are the one leaking something from themouth?

Jamesbay I dont care about you or your precious ego, but I wouldn't want your tears to blur your vision, lest HA or your pax take you for emotionally unstable, or drunk . So IM SORRY for calling you a moron What with all your backpaddling I do get your angle, its just not good advice. I think its fair to say so.

As for the numerous slurs you've painted me with... I probably don't even need to respond to that, your issues speak for themselves.

my first post ended with this .

Extra smiley at the end just for you so that you know I'm being humerous


Sorry for jacking the thread guys.

PW

[jamesbay]

Well there propwash, don't worry your pretty little head, it was a nice effort on your part though. I said fairly clearly to ryerye what was taken out of context, I know...I know you want to be "johnny do good" and zone in on the 1st post there, I explained the "not cool" statement, but really...get back to your cookies and milk. It's good to see your up on the CARS though.

Hey ryerye, I will tell you openly on this forum my first post was not a literal jab at you, so I will retract what I said because I think warrants that. It's obviously caused a runaway freight train.

jb

[ryerye]

hey no worries there guys and no need to get pissed off at one another. James bay I do respect the fact that you're speaking openly about the matter whatever your standpoint on this issue. I suspect there are alot more guys out the reading this forum who dare not tread where you have here. Also like I said earlier there are alot of guys who will agree with the fact drinking and flying dont mix but when that big party comes around there they are drunk, yet flying the next day. Sure maybe they only had 7 beer and shuterdown at midnight but that sure doesn't make them any better than the full blow alcholic.
There are guys who have posted on this forum who have made subtle comments that support the old school mentallity but for the most part i dont think you going to find guys on here defending their drinking but that doesnt mean they're not on here reading this forum or posting on here. Actually the individual I was speaking in my first post has also posted on this forum (and it's not James bay). Not suprisingly though in more of attempt to cover than defend his drinking and also not suprisingly has been fairly quiet since.
I'm a seasonal pilot and am flying with a different outfit this spring so hopefully if he continues this kind of behaviour his co workers will be more prepared to deal with it than i was last season. Although now if I see this kind of behaviour I will certainly be more prepared just from reading everyones posts, there were alot or helpful ones for sure.....a big thanks to everyone who shared openly on here...........even you James bay.

[tcraft]

Interesting......, I think I`ll have a beer, looks like awhile till break up.

[. ._]

One fine day with about 5 hours in my log book, before I knew better, I went up with an instructor to do some stalls and spins. I had been liquored to the gills the night before, but I wanted to keep my appointment that I made.

We were up around 6000 feet for a while doing stalls, then we did a spin. When the instructor said, "recover" I just looked at the ground spinning around and around and was enjoying the view. He recovered and asked me why I didn't do anything. I didn't know why.

Years later I found out this was probably hystoxic hypoxia- lack of oxygen to the brain caused by booze, and probably a pile of smokes too. Pretty dangerous, because I know now I would have spun right into the ground because I felt fine. No anxiety or anything.

That was the first and last time I ever flew hung over.

I say this so that someone will learn from my ignorance.

-istp

[Just another canuck]

It takes a lot of courage to share that story istp... I commend you, sir.

[BUSH RAT]

We have all seen and done things that are maybe not by the "rules" but running and telling on him go for it, see how that works out for ya. Aviation is a small world so be prepared for what may happen. Would you want someone crying about you the minute you do something wrong, Because you WILL makes lots of mistakes. If it was me I would shut my mouth do my job pay my bills and move on. Hey maybe after work you need to sit down with him and have a beer you might learn something.

Cheers

[Cat Driver]

Hey maybe after work you need to sit down with him and have a beer you might learn something.

This subject is about pilots who appear to have a serious drinking problem that extends into their flying.

What exactly will sitting down with him and having a beer do for his drinking problem, and the associated safety concerns?

[Injun]

Hey guys, Let's put another spin on it and see how it fits...I am your engineer and have a drinking problem but I never drink on the job. I go home and tell tall tales to all my engineer buddies, bump chests, chug a pile of brews and all that stuff. I get 5 Hrs sleep, come into work, say hi to you and look at you with my two piss holes in the snow for eyes, brag about all the beer i had last night and commence to button up that fuel control replacement from yesterday and reinstall that aileron that had to come off for inspection. Then sign it all off with the guy doing the dual signature that was filling the funnel for me the night before............Somehow makes it sound worse to show up to work without full ability to concentrate in a safety sensitive position eh?

Could be a pilot and a f.o. in this story and the outcome may be just as horrific. Flat out there is no room for this bs in aviation. Just because it involves a legal activity (booze) the result is the same as all other forms of illegally altering your ability to decision make and react. If you saw a pilot or an engineer shooting up a few hours before their shift you wouldn't think twice of "blowing the whistle". The fact that alcohol is "legal" and seen by too many obviously as "cool" is the root of the problem here. Say it's cool at the next AA meeting you attend.

I am as guilty as the next guy but learned early that responsibility outweighed not waiting for the weekend to have your fun. No excuses whatsoever outweigh our responsibilities, or find another line of work, PERIOD. Please don't ruin it for the rest of us who take pride in this fine industry or at least those of us that rely on it for a living we can take pride in.

Enough preaching, time for a beer......I don't have to work tomorrow.

P.S. Nothing personal but people with attitudes like Jamesbay in this thread are in a nutshell what is wrong with this industry. All actions taken with HONEST intentions are never punished. If so, time to move on...These attitudes are those of the pilot that put on 100 lbs too much or the engineer that should have tightened that bolt on the fcu, now their lives changed forever for a few with the guys....

[ettw]

You can be a heavy drinker or you can be a pilot, but not both....in my opinion of course.

I concur. I made the choice...I'm a pilot.

Cheers,

ETTW

[jamesbay]

Injun, just a quick scenario for ya since your on your "moral high ground rant"...the subject is long in the tooth already,

Scenario:

You sit and have, say 8 or 9 beers(just as an example) since your "not working tomorrow", you get a call early AM, "Jo Shmo" can't make it today, "can you cover for him?" Are you going to tell them the truth?.... being the upstanding citizen you make yourself out to be, or tell them a bullshit answer like the majority might?.... or just sweep it under the carpet and go in anyway?....like you probably will. Give me a break already.

jb

[Injun]

Jamesbay, point proven...

The sound of your computer's keyboard must be as sweet as your opinion is to your own ears.

[ilovelamp]

I think a big problem as well is that most bush pilots work every day.. Including weekends. There is also not alot to do way up in the north. Might be a reason for the association of drinking and bush pilots.

[Gumby]

This i a really interesting post and very exciting to follow. In my short career of aviation I always felt well rested for any flight I was on, I think a lot of us in this thread agree we also had a lot of days where we felt a little bagged due to short rest periods TC enforce today....and much shorter rest periods that were enforced in the 60's 70's even 80s. Im sure any old radial pilot would agree from what I hear........

Seeing that I have only been flying now for a few years in the industry I can only give little input but I have noticed a very real fact that a lot of these people who drink late/early, drugs are in a group or some sort of bubble. They watch each others back like a good friend, but all's they do is make it worse! They all seem to have a good laugh at how drunk they were the night before or how little sleep or how many girls bla bla bla etc. They act similar to the cool kids in school who didn't follow the rules and seemed to get by with luck, cause really its all that is saving their stupid behinds.

I have seen a few pilots ruin their short career by this already, unfortunate for them, but fortunate for anyone in the air on on the ground. But that Bubble of drinkers who stick together still seem to condone it and also encourage it. Why? When did some of us go back in time and become children again?

I am sure there are lots CPs that have told employees to get a taxi and come back then next day. And there are more friends/colleagues that should do the exact same without thinking twice about what might happen to their working relationship or whatever. Ooh this is making me angry!