Oops - bad idea?

[light chop]

CADORS Number: 2009C0595

Detail InformationUser Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2009/03/13
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: A private Cessna 310 with 2 people on board was doing circuits and on the downwind leg at Airdrie when the pilot advised he was demonstrating feathering one engine with the gear and flaps down. The aircraft could not sustain flight on one engine with both gear and flaps deployed and descended to the ground approximately 1 mile short of Runway 30. The aircraft received substantial damage however, the occupants were not injured. TSB report to follow.

User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2009/03/18
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE TSB reported that the pilot of the Cessna 310 was joining the circuit at the Airdrie, AB airport. He was demonstrating a single-engine approach and landing for his passenger, and on downwind shut down the left engine and feathered the propeller. Shortly thereafter the pilot selected the gear down and extended the flaps to 30°. The aircraft began to descend and full power on the remaining engine could not maintain altitude. The flaps and gear were retracted as the aircraft turned onto the final approach, but there was insufficient time for the aircraft to recover from the descent. The aircraft impacted a snow-covered field about 1 mile short of the runway threshold, resulting in substantial damaged to the aircraft but no injuries to the 2 occupants.

[Tango01]

Yes. Bad idea.

[iflyforpie]

Especially with a passenger on board.

[High Flyin]

My instructor told me that single engine operations on a mutli engine plane were banned below 500ft AGL due to low altitude, low airspeed and the possiblity of an overshoot. Can any confirm?

[rigpiggy]

Not sure about legality, but during my initial/subsequent multi training last ride august, we did a single engine map to landing.

That said glad they were alright.

[just curious]

My instructor told me that single engine operations on a mutli engine plane were banned below 500ft AGL due to low altitude, low airspeed and the possiblity of an overshoot. Can any confirm?

While not in the CARs, it is a sound Flight School policy. Generally, what trainers will do is to set up zero thrust, by retarding the prop to min governing, and the torque/manifold to a setting slightly above idle. In this manner engines can resume useful power much faster than being feathered.

As well, there are certain guidelines followed. Go arounds for instance are initiated at a minimum 100 feet, and failures on takeoff are commenced at 400'

[Strega]

What a moron,

All I can say is why would you willfully enter into an actual emergency by shutting an engine down, when the exacy same conditions can be achieved by zero thrust on the "simulated failed" engine?

Shutting an engine down ( that is 100% functional) in a twin engine plane is retarded.

If anyone dissagrees with me, well, I wount say it..

[Cat Driver]

All I can say is why would you willfully enter into an actual emergency by shutting an engine down, when the exacy same conditions can be achieved by zero thrust on the "simulated failed" engine?

Most FTU's?

On the dictate of TC's flight training experts?

[LegoMan]

Thats what you get for showing off. "Look Bob I dont need 2 engines only 1! BOOM!" Retard should never be allowed to fly again and I hope he hit the ground so hard he sterilized himself. My instructor showed a simulated feather for me at 3500ft not in the circuit.

[Trevor]

According to someone "in the know" - ie: someone directly connected with the person(s) involved. There was no demonstrated engine shutdown. The pilot suspected a mechanical failure of his nose gear, and had been unable to get a down and locked indicator, even after several attempt at extending it.

Expecting that the nose gear may collapse on landing, the pilot chose to try and save one engine and prop by shutting it down. Unfortunately the sink rate was greater than he anticipated and he ended up in a farmer's field short of the runway.

The pilot was a high timer with a major airline in Canada, so this wasn't some hot-dogging, show-boating accident. And as proof to the improvements we'll get form our new ELTs, the brand-new 406 didn't even trigger.

Interesting CADOR however.

As for your post Legoman, you may consider deleting it before people start thinking you're talking about something you're not knowledgeable about.

[ILSfan07]

All I can say is why would you willfully enter into an actual emergency by shutting an engine down, when the exacy same conditions can be achieved by zero thrust on the "simulated failed" engine?

Most FTU's?

On the dictate of TC's flight training experts?

True, not a great idea, but don't you think it's beneficial for the student to see the engine shut down and restart at least once in his training before being let loose? (in a safe area, under the right conditions, etc)

To me it was surprising how long I had to hold the starter to get the prop out of feather. Had I not done that, and encountered a real emergency somewhere down the line, I wouldn't really know what to expect, would I? (other than what the books told us) The sounds, the vibrations, the feeling, etc. all add to the experience. Something I'll never forget.

[iflyforpie]

CADORS Number: 1997C0084 Reporting Region: Prairie & Northern

Occurrence Information
Occurrence Type: Accident Occurrence Date: 1997/02/05
Occurrence Time: 1645 Z Day Or Night:
Fatalities: 0 Injuries: 0

Canadian Aerodrome ID: Aerodrome Name:
Occurrence Location: Springbank, Alberta Province: Alberta
Country: CANADA World Area: North America

Reported By: Edmonton ACC AOR Number:
TSB Class Of Investigation: TSB Occurrence No.:
Event Information
Landing gear
Aircraft Information
Flight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: CESSNA Model: 310I
Year Built: 1964 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: Engine Model:
Engine Type: Reciprocating Gear Type:
Phase of Flight: Landing Damage: Unknown
Owner: ACCENT AVIATION SERVICES LTD Operator:
Operator Type: Commercial

Detail Information
User Name:
Date: 1997/02/07
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.:
Narrative: The pilot of C-GWWO was unable to get the main gear down. The nose gear was partially extended. The Airport maintenance used a snow blower to put snow cover on runway 34. The aircraft landed with gear up on snow cover. Damage is unknown. There were 4 SOB, no injuries. The runway was closed till approximately 2200Z. UPDATE: After take-off from Calgary International on a charter flight to Grande Cache, Alberta, the pilot selected the landing gear up, but the nose gear of the Cessna 310 did not retract properly. The gear selector was cycled several times, and the emergency checklist was followed. The pilot diverted to Springbank and consulted with Company Maintenance. After flying around for about two hours to burn off excess fuel, the pilot elected to land on runway 34. The snow clearing crew had ploughed fresh snow onto the centre of the runway to cushion the landing. The aircraft landed on the centre line and came to a stop without further incident. The pilot reported that he had secured both engines, and that both propellers were in a horizontal position prior to touchdown. The main landing gear undercarriage doors, belly antennas, and flaps were damaged. Company Maintenance reported that one nose undercarriage door had jammed, resulting in the system being out of sequence. Once out of sequence the gear would not move.

I knew I'd seen something like this before.

This one worked out and he saved both engines.

But I like Hedley's mantra. Skin, tin, ticket.

[Cat Driver]

True, not a great idea, but don't you think it's beneficial for the student to see the engine shut down and restart at least once in his training before being let loose? (in a safe area, under the right conditions, etc)

No.

To me it was surprising how long I had to hold the starter to get the prop out of feather. Had I not done that, and encountered a real emergency somewhere down the line, I wouldn't really know what to expect, would I? (other than what the books told us) The sounds, the vibrations, the feeling, etc. all add to the experience. Something I'll never forget.

With that line of thinking why not fly the airplane into the trees so you can experience the sounds, the viabrations, the feelings, etc.?

What do schools that are located in really cold locations like Winnipeg do when it is thirty below, do they do full feather / shutdowns?

[AV8R]

With that line of thinking why not fly the airplane into the trees so you can experience the sounds, the viabrations, the feelings, etc.?

Ya i suppose, live and learn

[iflyforpie]

A good way to demonstrate how hard it is to start a feathered engine is do it on the ground. (Insert wise cracks from PT6/PW100/etc drivers here).

No, really. Run the engine, feather the prop (or just leave it slightly coarse). The pitch locks won't engage and the prop is now feathered until it has oil pressure.

It is very hard on starters and the engine sounds like it is going to blow up until the blades start moving to fine, but probably far less risky than doing it in the air.

Ask me how I know how to do this.

[Strega]

beneficial for the student to see the engine shut down and restart at least once in his training before being let loose

Do you activate a different "starter" in the air than you would normaly operate on the ground?

What purpose does creating a REAL emergency by shutting an engine down serve??


As for this "guy" trying to save one engine, well I call BS, Did his miture and prop controls suddenly fail to operate
once he had made the field on final? Was he not able to ICO and feather both engines (as done many times before by other pilots with gear probles)
on short final after making the field for certain?

perhaps his logbook wasn't certified

[Trevor]

Call BS if you want Strega. The story I got was from someone who got the story directly from the pilot, and not someone who read an anonymous, sterilized TC report.

As much as we talk big on the internet, saying "I'd do this, and I'd do that," I pray that I'm never in a position to have to bend metal. As much as we like to think that even the most experienced pilots will be willing to bend metal, when its you're ass in the seat I don't care who you are, there's going to be some thought of saving even a small piece of the plane. And when you're the owner, having paid for that plane out of your own pocket, it'll be even harder to make that sacrifice.

Since I fly a twin in the same area, I've spent a couple days thinking about what happened here. Calgary has two miles of concrete, and Airdrie one. I'd like to think that had I been in the same situation, I'd have been cool headed enough to take both engine with me into the flare and cut the mixture at zero altitude. I'd burn up the runway, but at least I'd be over them. I'd probably still write off both engines and props, but I'd be on the runway before I gave them away.

I just saw the bird this afternoon, and it looks quiet good. Obviously the insurance company wrote it off because the market value for a straight-tail 310 isn't high enough to justify a replacing a pair of engines, props and a dented belly.

[Donald]

Regardless of what actually happened here, sometimes people can be their own worst enemies when it comes to "thinking outside the box".

There's video somewhere of a guy circling St Andrews in a Navajo, burning off fuel with a stuck nose gear. He ends up running out and crashing into a field.

Rather than reducing your options, just land the thing and expect that there is going to be an insurance claim for some bent bits. No sense changing a minor issue into a major catastrophe.

[teacher]

Isn't it a requirement to demonstrate a shutdown and restart of an engine in flight, granted at altitude and clean when doing an initial mutli?

[Cat Driver]

Isn't it a requirement to demonstrate a shutdown and restart of an engine in flight, granted at altitude and clean when doing an initial mutli?

When I owned a school TC had a policy that said you had to do a full shut down and feather in flight during the training for the multi engine rating.

I advised them that I would not do it for safety reasons.

They said I had to I told them that I would not and if they refused to issue the rating using that as their reason I would take them to court for trying to intimidate me into performing an unsafe action with my airplane.

I never demonstrated the full feathering and shut downs during the multi engine training.

They never refused to issue the ratings.

ONCE AGAIN I WOULD LIKE THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION.



Do the FTU's shut down engines during the winter in well below freezing temperatures???

[oldtimer]

The certification standards for a Cessna 310, or any other multi that has a MTOW of less than 6000 lbs and a Vso of 61 Kts or less, does not have to demonstrate the ability to maintain a positive rate of climb on one engine. Maintaining altitude is considered to be a rate of climb of zero f/p/m. All measurements for certification for all piston and turbine powered airplanes with a MTOW of 12,500 or less is taken @ 5000 ft in ISA conditions with the airplane configured for single engine flight. Turbines have to perform at a higher temperature. For the light twin, 6 seats, MTOW of 6000 lbs or less and Vso of 61 kts or less, all performance, positive or negative, has to be charted and presented in the AFM. They are basically a single-engined airplane with the power plants divided into two units. If what the pilot did is correct, he/she was operating outside the performance capabilities of the airplane and an off airport landing has to be considered.

[LOW BURNER]

Did my multi in Winnipeg in January and we didnt fly when it was below -28. No shut down in real cold weather. Didnt even go to zero thrust on some of the days to avoid super cooling the engine.

[Cat Driver]

Did my multi in Winnipeg in January and we didnt fly when it was below -28. No shut down in real cold weather. Didnt even go to zero thrust on some of the days to avoid super cooling the engine.

Exactly, because anyone with the IQ above room temperature understands the damage shock cooling can do to air cooled piston engines.

Do they do multi engine training during the time of year when shut downs are going to be very damaging to engines?

Or do they wait until spring to finish the training so they can perform the full shut down and feathering?

[LOW BURNER]

Wait for days to go up to around -15 and then make the shutdown as breif as possible. Nothing below 2000AGL. The guys dont enjoy doing it but as it is a requirement they do it once. I dont think they ever got into a pissing match with TC but by the sounds of things they can get rid of it if they push it.

[teacher]

I did it during my initial multi.