How Low Will You Go?
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- invertedattitude
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Re: How Low Will You Go?
It's not as if those fares apply to the entire aircraft as some seem to be eluding to.
Selling 8 seats out of 136 at a low fare is standard practice.
There's several AC fares I've seen late 1.5 hour routes or more with $89 fares, butthey didn't last long.
On the same note, I recently flew on a WestJet aircraft that was chock full except for 3 seats, a one way fare on a 3 hour leg was $575 at that point.
Selling 8 seats out of 136 at a low fare is standard practice.
There's several AC fares I've seen late 1.5 hour routes or more with $89 fares, butthey didn't last long.
On the same note, I recently flew on a WestJet aircraft that was chock full except for 3 seats, a one way fare on a 3 hour leg was $575 at that point.
Re: How Low Will You Go?
Exactly. Standard practice.invertedattitude wrote:It's not as if those fares apply to the entire aircraft as some seem to be eluding to.
Selling 8 seats out of 136 at a low fare is standard practice.
There's several AC fares I've seen late 1.5 hour routes or more with $89 fares, but they didn't last long.
On the same note, I recently flew on a WestJet aircraft that was chock full except for 3 seats, a one way fare on a 3 hour leg was $575 at that point.
The airlines are better with it now than they used to be. They would advertise cheap fares and when you tried to book it, they seemingly couldn't be found. Today, using interactive websites, the passenger chooses what flight and when based on their own criteria.
Thanks for that IA.
bmc
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Re: How Low Will You Go?
Westjet obviously has a good thing going. As long as they are profitable and pay their employees well, they can charge whatever they see fit in my eyes.
Re: How Low Will You Go?
CanadianEh wrote:Westjet obviously has a good thing going. As long as they are profitable and pay their employees well, they can charge whatever they see fit in my eyes.
+1
Re: How Low Will You Go?
Who cares if they have fares at $75?? I guess you worrywarts didnt look at YYC-PSP? Yah just went down for work and a 5 day advanced booking was $420. Thats a 2.5 hour leg and during a global slowdown........WestJet will be just fine!
7 Day Outlook:
YYC-LAS = $344
YYC-LAX = $200-$293
YYC-YYZ = $144-$589
YEG-YZF = Nothing cheaper than $149
Hardly JetsGo pricing!!
7 Day Outlook:
YYC-LAS = $344
YYC-LAX = $200-$293
YYC-YYZ = $144-$589
YEG-YZF = Nothing cheaper than $149
Hardly JetsGo pricing!!
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Re: How Low Will You Go?
how about a last minute yxe-yyc for $500? Not even an hour flight! 

Re: How Low Will You Go?
I'm not a 100% sure but I believe all or most of the CDN North pilots are based in the south. First Air has a YEG 737 base as well as a YZF 737 base. Probably a little more than a dozen or so 37 guys based in YZF as well as most of the Herc guys and all of the ATR guyswrc wrote:We will see what the market bears. If the good people of Yellowknife decide to support the fares of those in Norman Wells, Coppermine etc... then we'll (WestJet) be gone at the end of the summer, not to return.
If they choose to go with the best value, then I would guess that some of those 737-200 jobs will be gone, maybe to WestJet and the remaining Northern flying will be forced to increase yield and efficiency. If such is the case, I would expect eventual year round service. As happened with our "Cherry picking" service to YYC & YQB.
Out of interest, how many of the 737-200 pilots at Canadian North & First Air are actually based in the Territories? I would assume the ATR & Hawker guys all live there.
Re: How Low Will You Go?
BTW, that was supposed to be: "Cherry picking" service to YYG & YQB, lol 

Re: How Low Will You Go?
Saying Westjet will have a hard go getting into yellowknife because they do not have cargo capabilites is B.S! There is a road to yellowknife which will have year round access once the bridge in fort providence is finished, cargo from YEG-YZF is not a big buisness, Westjet will do just fine in YK! 4 airlines in this market, someone's gonna have to drop that run.
Re: How Low Will You Go?
You can get to Vegas out of YYC on Sunwing for $49 this week!
Re: How Low Will You Go?
joe to go wrote:You can get to Vegas out of YYC on Sunwing for $49 this week!
It's their going out of business sale!

Re: How Low Will You Go?
So you think it's fine that, potentially, a northern carrier should drop a route that is a major part of it's overall system with possible severe consequences to employees in YEG and YZF and people living north of YZF just so Westjet can cherry pick a 1.5 hour sector which is absolutely peanuts to Westjet's overall system?johnkruk wrote:Westjet will do just fine in YK! 4 airlines in this market, someone's gonna have to drop that run.
Nice to see the mindset of southern airlines who are all about expanding the kingdom without regard for northerners.
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Re: How Low Will You Go?
Nice to see the mindset of southern airlines who are all about expanding the kingdom without regard for northerners.
Welcome to the jungle. Sad. BTW, anybody have the balls to share some details of the new agreement? Or is it still being negotiated? Or will you be banned from public forums for sharing "inside" info? Aw heck, no worries, it's a small world anyway.
Last edited by tonysoprano on Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: How Low Will You Go?
It's still on ice. We've got a few letters from Durf stating they are still working together to get something done. We are all standing by.
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Re: How Low Will You Go?
I know you guys will get something better than the original offer. I think they were just testing you. Good luck. Hey, get better dental and medical, some o' you guys are lookin' a little used.
Re: How Low Will You Go?
FICU wrote:So you think it's fine that, potentially, a northern carrier should drop a route that is a major part of it's overall system with possible severe consequences to employees in YEG and YZF and people living north of YZF just so Westjet can cherry pick a 1.5 hour sector which is absolutely peanuts to Westjet's overall system?johnkruk wrote:Westjet will do just fine in YK! 4 airlines in this market, someone's gonna have to drop that run.
Nice to see the mindset of southern airlines who are all about expanding the kingdom without regard for northerners.
You have got to be kidding, right? Are northerners really that frail? Do you really think WJ just arbitrarily rolls the dice and decides on a route? Since when is the north some magically protected place from competition? Give your head a shake.
Drinking outside the box.
Re: How Low Will You Go?
Low cost carriers historically grow the market, bringing cheaper airfares to the general public. Your protectionist attitude shows disregard for northerners and a complete focus on protecting your market.FICU wrote:So you think it's fine that, potentially, a northern carrier should drop a route that is a major part of it's overall system with possible severe consequences to employees in YEG and YZF and people living north of YZF just so Westjet can cherry pick a 1.5 hour sector which is absolutely peanuts to Westjet's overall system?johnkruk wrote:Westjet will do just fine in YK! 4 airlines in this market, someone's gonna have to drop that run.
Nice to see the mindset of southern airlines who are all about expanding the kingdom without regard for northerners.
You position supports the argument for new entrants.
bmc
Re: How Low Will You Go?
Not kidding... how do you honestly expect a northern airline which has an entirely different operation than a major southern airline to compete with the low cost fares Westjet is providing? Westjet has a system with large volume and can afford to put out low fares. Westjet can afford to lose money on that route because of the success of the rest of it's network. Northern airlines don't have that luxury because of the lack of volume of passengers available to reduce fares to the low cost model and the nature of the equipment needed to move freight and people efficiently. Northern airlines focus on moving people and freight north and south as well as supporting northern communities through funding and sponsorship. Northern airlines are an integral part of northerner's lives and are major employers of northern people. This isn't like any other market Westjet as decided to get a piece of.Four1oh wrote: You have got to be kidding, right? Are northerners really that frail? Do you really think WJ just arbitrarily rolls the dice and decides on a route? Since when is the north some magically protected place from competition? Give your head a shake.
Unless Westjet is struggling and needs to find new routes for the new aircraft it's getting because of the recession it seems like a strange move to acquire all the necessary equipment in Yellowknife, have a kiosk in the middle of the floor in the terminal with no luggage belt for passenger check-in because there isn't available counter space, very unprofessional IMO... just to cherry pick summer travelers when Yellowknife is really hurting in this recession... all for a 1.5 sector which is already over serviced with 3 airlines. Doesn't sound like a sound business decision to me but time will tell.
I'm sure First Air and Canadian North will do their best to compete but if they can't it will be the people of the north who will suffer the most.
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Re: How Low Will You Go?
So if they're an entirely different operation, then there'd be few problems would there? The northern airlines provide a service that a southern airline couldn't, namely cargo hauling.FICU wrote:a northern airline which has an entirely different operation than a major southern airline to compete with the low cost fares Westjet is providing?
WJ doesn't start a route with the expectation of losing money. The numbers speak for themselves, it's a no-brainer.FICU wrote:Westjet has a system with large volume and can afford to put out low fares. Westjet can afford to lose money on that route because of the success of the rest of it's network.
FICU wrote: Northern airlines don't have that luxury because of the lack of volume of passengers available to reduce fares to the low cost model and the nature of the equipment needed to move freight and people efficiently. Northern airlines focus on moving people and freight north and south as well as supporting northern communities through funding and sponsorship. Northern airlines are an integral part of northerner's lives and are major employers of northern people. This isn't like any other market Westjet as decided to get a piece of.
Unless Westjet is struggling and needs to find new routes for the new aircraft it's getting because of the recession it seems like a strange move to acquire all the necessary equipment in Yellowknife, have a kiosk in the middle of the floor in the terminal with no luggage belt for passenger check-in because there isn't available counter space, very unprofessional IMO... just to cherry pick summer travelers when Yellowknife is really hurting in this recession... all for a 1.5 sector which is already over serviced with 3 airlines. Doesn't sound like a sound business decision to me but time will tell.
You had better hope WJ doesn't realize that there's a year round market for hauling travellers, eh? It'd be easy to find some Japanese speaking girls in YVR who'd love to be FA's!
Re: How Low Will You Go?
Wrong...Jastapilot wrote: So if they're an entirely different operation, then there'd be few problems would there? The northern airlines provide a service that a southern airline couldn't, namely cargo hauling.
Namely low volume passenger travel to Yellowknife, Iqualuit, and points north, cargo, jobs for upwards of 500 northerners in one northern airline alone, sponsorship of food for children in schools, sports, and community events to name but a few. What will Westjet offer to northerners besides lowball fares to and from Yellowknife?
Time will tell if there is enough volume of tourists and Yellowknifers during one of the worst recessions in history. Add to that the completely unprofessional check in at the airport. People will have a choice out of Yellowknife... TVs and cookies from Westjet or hot meals, complementary wine, and world class service from First Air and Canadian North... it will be interesting as the northern airlines match the Westjet fares.WJ doesn't start a route with the expectation of losing money. The numbers speak for themselves, it's a no-brainer.
There isn't and the few Japanese that are, are flying Air Canada to Yellowknife, so unless Westjet can offer codeshare from Japan don't expect their business. Besides... the Japanese are now flocking to Whitehorse and Alaska... maybe new territory ripe for cherry picking...?You had better hope WJ doesn't realize that there's a year round market for hauling travellers, eh? It'd be easy to find some Japanese speaking girls in YVR who'd love to be FA's!
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Re: How Low Will You Go?
Then I guess you have nothing to worry about after all. 

Re: How Low Will You Go?
1. I doubt very much any airline in their right mind would start service to an unprofitable market just to piss off other airlines. Westjet will not go into YZF to lose money. They won't. Why would they? You know as well as I do that they won't.
2. If you do believe that Westjet will only be offering cheap low fares, this is actually a good thing. They will fill their airplane first, and the other airlines with remaining available capacity flown out of YZF can sell their seats for more money. There is a segment of the market that books with 3-4 days that is willing to pay more. If you believe Westjet will fill their planes with $75 fares, great. Let them. That isn't the market you're after, right?
3. When you look at average fares and market size, you get a good picture of the revenue opportunity. Westjet has a good reputation. If they become strong in the market, why would they keep their fares low? They will maintain a mix of cheap fares available weeks out, but close in, if they are deemed to be a good quality airline, they will not leave money on the table and give away the seats.
4. Northern carriers that have held a monopoly or duopoly become the target of criticism in the north. There is a perception of being gauged. Of paying higher rates for travel of similar distance. It's as popular a lament is as laughing about the Maple Leafs. It doesn't matter how much you give to the communities, how many free tickets you give to be raffled by hockey teams, the perception of higher fares is a reality. It may not be accurate and most often, it never is.
5. Westjet's entry is not a good thing for the existing carriers. It will put downward pressure on fares. It will reduce loads and profitability. And carriers are going to find out just how loyal northerners are when they are presented with another choice. When northern carriers match WS, you can expect a backclash from the northern communities. north of YZF. They will draw the conclusion that competition brings the fares down (which it does). This can lead to WS being welcomed with open arms.
5. TV's cookies, wine, hot or cold meals and checkin counters seldom appear as airline selection criteria in surveys about economy class products. Most surveys will rank price, affinity program, network, schedule in that order. Lower fares and cutting costs are what the competing airlines will be forced into. You see it everywhere in North America. Gone is the hot steak. In is the bunwitch with pickle.
While it may be good for YZF in terms of lower prices, it's not good North or 7F, regardless if they maintain strong market share. Expect lower yields and revenue hits.
2. If you do believe that Westjet will only be offering cheap low fares, this is actually a good thing. They will fill their airplane first, and the other airlines with remaining available capacity flown out of YZF can sell their seats for more money. There is a segment of the market that books with 3-4 days that is willing to pay more. If you believe Westjet will fill their planes with $75 fares, great. Let them. That isn't the market you're after, right?
3. When you look at average fares and market size, you get a good picture of the revenue opportunity. Westjet has a good reputation. If they become strong in the market, why would they keep their fares low? They will maintain a mix of cheap fares available weeks out, but close in, if they are deemed to be a good quality airline, they will not leave money on the table and give away the seats.
4. Northern carriers that have held a monopoly or duopoly become the target of criticism in the north. There is a perception of being gauged. Of paying higher rates for travel of similar distance. It's as popular a lament is as laughing about the Maple Leafs. It doesn't matter how much you give to the communities, how many free tickets you give to be raffled by hockey teams, the perception of higher fares is a reality. It may not be accurate and most often, it never is.
5. Westjet's entry is not a good thing for the existing carriers. It will put downward pressure on fares. It will reduce loads and profitability. And carriers are going to find out just how loyal northerners are when they are presented with another choice. When northern carriers match WS, you can expect a backclash from the northern communities. north of YZF. They will draw the conclusion that competition brings the fares down (which it does). This can lead to WS being welcomed with open arms.
5. TV's cookies, wine, hot or cold meals and checkin counters seldom appear as airline selection criteria in surveys about economy class products. Most surveys will rank price, affinity program, network, schedule in that order. Lower fares and cutting costs are what the competing airlines will be forced into. You see it everywhere in North America. Gone is the hot steak. In is the bunwitch with pickle.
While it may be good for YZF in terms of lower prices, it's not good North or 7F, regardless if they maintain strong market share. Expect lower yields and revenue hits.
bmc
Re: How Low Will You Go?
Then why would Westjet pick the absolutely worst time in the last 10 years to start a Yellowknife route and not be able to offer the passenger the same level of service in the terminal? This again leads me to believe that the recession is hurting Westjet and with all the new deliveries they are accepting they need to find areas to put airlplanes. Why wouldn't Westjet do a codeshare agreement with a northern airline initially to see if it is a market they can succeed at?bmc wrote: I doubt very much any airline in their right mind would start service to an unprofitable market just to piss off other airlines. Westjet will not go into YZF to lose money. They won't. Why would they? You know as well as I do that they won't.
If you do believe that Westjet will only be offering cheap low fares...
It's advertising and Westjet is making the Yellowknifers believe they are the savior of the north.
I think we all know that northern airlines can't price the same as southern airlines because of the lack of volume of passengers... that's why it's always more expensive to fly in the north... not due to price gouging. Don't forget that the northern living allowance provided by the government is designed to help offset the cost of travel and many employees of larger companies and government get travel incentives to help them offset the cost too.Northern carriers that have held a monopoly or duopoly become the target of criticism in the north. There is a perception of being gauged. Of paying higher rates for travel of similar distance.
Damn right... and to offset the reduced profitability and or loss of the Edmonton-Yellowknife run thanks to Westjet you may end up seeing northern carriers reducing the funding and sponsorship they provide to northern communities... so who is the ultimate loser in all of this? I like to think that those north of Yellowknife will want to keep their money in the north by supporting the northern airlines... I doubt many Yellowknifers really care since most of them are from the south.Westjet's entry is not a good thing for the existing carriers. It will put downward pressure on fares. It will reduce loads and profitability. And carriers are going to find out just how loyal northerners are when they are presented with another choice.
It's only good for those in Yellowknife period.While it may be good for YZF in terms of lower prices, it's not good North or 7F, regardless if they maintain strong market share. Expect lower yields and revenue hits.
Re: How Low Will You Go?
FICU,
Curious,
G
What kind, and how much funding an sponsorship do the northern carriers provide to northern communities? Are there any hard numbers available?Damn right... and to offset the reduced profitability and or loss of the Edmonton-Yellowknife run thanks to Westjet you may end up seeing northern carriers reducing the funding and sponsorship they provide to northern communities... so who is the ultimate loser in all of this?
Curious,
G
Booyakasha!