Useless?

[trevor3999]

h

[AuxBatOn]

I just started my ppl training, so i dont really know what i should be expecting from the lessons. Ill cut to the chase though. I had my 3rd lesson the other day, all have been about an hour flight time, and an hour on the ground. We did climbs and descents, and my first 2 climbs were horrible and my third was "meh". Both my 2 descents were fine. But that is all i did, was 3 climbs, and 2 descents, the rest was my flight instructor flying around, and then we had to land. Is this normal for an hour? Cause i think if i was to do one more climb i woulda nailed it. (btw i relise im talking about the most basic manuevres in the book, and felt pretty bad when my first werent very good) I just dont know if maybe my flight instructor is sorta wasting time, and in aviation, time is money. I also dont have time to schedule anything longer than 2 hours.

Thanks!!

In the airplane, for the first time you do something, it should be demo-do (ie: the instructors demoes what the exercice is then you give it a shot a few times, until you're getting the basics). On subsequent flights, you instructor shouldn't have to do the exercices he showed you before, unless you have difficulty with one and he deems that an other demo would be beneficial. Otherwise, it's your time (and money), not his, so you should be getting the hands on.

The first flight should be a take off/departure to the area demonstration, followed by and area familiarisation and the basic manoevers (straight and level, turns, descents, climbs), then the circuit rejoin and landing as a demonstration, plus one touch and go to show you the continuous patterns. On the subsequent flight, YOU should be doing the take off, departure, practice the basic manoevers you learned on the previous flight, then he should take the plane and show you something new. Then you should practice the new exercice and you should take the airplane back home for maybe 1 or 2 touch and go. Once all the exercices are demonstrated, he shouldn't have to touch the controls again, unless he deems you need to see it once again.

[ywgflyboy]

The first few lessons can also be overwhelming for a fresh pilot. If you start getting tired and stressed, making improvements becomes hard. Give it a few lessons and then you should be doing most of the flying!

Another thing to keep in mind is the time you book is your time. I am working on my commercial now and will book a standard 1.5 hours with the instructor. If I get tired of doing what we are doing, or just have had enough, we head on back (or if I love what we are doing he makse me head back in-time for the next block). If it is the other way around though and the isntructor is ending your 1.5 block after 40 minutes, ask to try the skill again.

My thoughts anyways.

Cheers

[trevor3999]

Well first flight was sorta saying the forces of movements acting on the plane and taxiing. The second was straight and level. And this last one being climbs and descents, she showed me once, at the beginning of the lesson. Then she did some flying and line up with a road get me to do a climb, then she would line up with the same road and i would do the descent, rinse and repeat. I dont know why we couldnt go in a straight line and go up and down. But that took an hour.

[FlaplessDork]

Demonstrate-Performance Method of Teaching
Instructor Explaination
Instructor Demonstration
Student Practice
Close Supervision
Evaluation

It will take you alot longer to master a new skill if you are not shown how to do it properly first. Your first few lessons the instructor will be demonstrating new things more often than in later exercises. Typically a lesson begins with a student review of previous exercises, a demonstration and explaination by the instructor of new exercises, student practice of new exercises, and then a familiarization of the next flight's exercises by the instructor without any formal teaching inflight to give you something to relate to when you receive preparatory ground instruction on the new exercise.

[ASM150]

I'm sorta in the same boat as you...its seems like an hour in the air goes by like that, your just getting used to the movements of the plane and ge into a "zone" (espcially at this state of your/my flying carrer) and before you know it, its time to head back to land...i would love if each flight was 2 hours, not the just 1 hour of airtime.

[ywgflyboy]

The line up with the road would be a way to give you a visual ref. I remember being at your point with my instructor always ranting "remember the rudder! remember the rudder!"

My instructor and I were in converstaion last week in the air about some new PPL pilots who are getting discouraged because they are not done yet. Schools all quote the 45 hours (minimum requirement) but apparently the national average is around 60-65 right now at the PPL flight test. Flying is a giant exponential curve. Once you get these basics down, it just takes off from there.

[trevor3999]

Thanks for the feedback. Haha ya, the rudder is what gets me, not forgetting it, but im either using to much or too little, than i over compensate when i correct myself, which makes me start to turn. But i could feel that last one i had a mini opifiny and got the "feel" of the rudder, which is why i really wanna try again!

[FlaplessDork]

My advice for the rudder is not to "feel" it per-se but to pick a point off on the horizon and use the rudder to keep in front of you. Works regardless of airspeed, airplane, etc. You will always add the right amount if you keep your reference straight.

My advice for instructors is not to say "add more rudder" because it doesn't tell the student how much to add, but instead say "keep the nose staight"

[trevor3999]

good tip.
Thanks!

[Old Dog Flying]

After instructing for 38 years and hundreds of students, I know that no two students learn at the same rate BUT, when I see and hear this sort of thing going on, it makes my blood pressure go up very quickly. You as the student control the money that goes into an instructors pocket and if he is using your wallet to fund his joyriding then get rid of him.

Three climbs and two descents in an hour is BS particularly on the third lesson. You should have had a preparatory ground lesson so that you would know what was coming up on Lesson 3 then before the flight you should have had a 15-20 minute briefing to refresh your memory on what you would be doing then in the air, the instructor could take 2-3 minutes to demonstrate the exercise then let you practice it. Then on to the next exercise...with very little demonstration time. Any more than this and he/she is "milking the sacred cow".

By lesson number three you should have been able/allowed to take-off, climb, level off and under the instructors direction proceed to the practice area. There you practice each exercise and then be able to return to the airport, join the pattern and carry out the landing again under the instructors direction. If the instructor is not following these basic principles of instructing then he/she hasn't a clue what he/she is doing. Then get another instructor before the wallet shrinks like GMs stock!

Barney C-GFXH

[monkeyspankmasterflex]

I had my 3rd lesson the other day

But that is all i did, was 3 climbs, and 2 descents

That sounds ridiculous to me. Not only would I change instructors but I would change schools if it's a possibility. At this rate you should have enough time for your ATPL by the time you get your PPL. At least she's your instructor and not your girlfriend.

Bear in mind I'm not an instructor, and it's been a while since I did my PPL training.

[200hr Wonder]

Well here is how I tend to do the first three lessons:

The student should fly minimum 80% of the time. After about the 4th or 5th it is more like 95%+ By the time the student is solo it is 98%.

So first by now you should be relatively comfortable with the basics of starting up, getting your ground taxi clearance/making the MF calls, doing a run up. I will ask some questions with regards to various aspects of the run up but it is all you hands on. Then once to the hold short line you should make the call for ready to go/take off call. You take off, climb out and more or less fly to the practice area with prompting. IE fly strait for that tree/mountain/cloud lake whatever. Good time to work on strait and level from before. The key here is on the climb out I would be prompting with the pitch attitude I want. I want you to keep the cowling on the horizon for example. Then once out in the practice area it is a quick demo of several different climbs/descents IE a Vx, Vy, Enroute Climb, then you do a bit of strait and level and practice then a power on descent at cruise power, then a reduced power setting then a best glide power setting again a bit of strait and level and practice. This is then followed by climbing turns and descents (assuming you have done turns, been a while since i have instructed not sure what is next). By this point you have all the tools you need to be talked back to final. Depending on the student I will talk them right to the ground possibly even let them land while following closely on the controls. My total stick time: 5 to 10 min TOPS.

The thing is climbing/descending is strait climbing descending so the concept of wings level/strait with rudder still applies, then you add in pitch control to it and then some throttle changes.

Now with all this said if a student is having a lot of pitch control/heading control/speed control problems on take off and climb out I may take control till we are leveled off and really re-enforce strait and level, though I can think of only one student that I had to do that with as they where having issues with all sorts of things, even then my stick time was only about 15min for the lesson till the student got some more confidence. I also think that 2 hour slots or BS for Ab inito training. There needs to be 3 hour slot. 1.0 for PGI, 1.5 for a flight then 15min for a de-brief/review/homework assignment and the instructor 15min to get ready for the next student. Anything less is BS. I know the standard is 2hours, but you can not do a good job in that time.

If you are not getting the time as described above go to the CFI or go shopping for a new school.

[altiplano]

My advice is this:

"hey instructor buddy - since we are doing this flight on my dime I want to do another climb... or six until I nail it."

your pay = your say...

[200hr Wonder]

My advice is this:

"hey instructor buddy - since we are doing this flight on my dime I want to do another climb... or six until I nail it."

your pay = your say...

It would be nice if that where the way but most schools have there planes booked so tight someone is sitting on the ground waiting for it to get back. As an instructor I have a duty to my fellow instructors and other students to get the plane back on time. Perhaps consider booking the plane longer to take advantage of a longer flight as antiplano suggested.

[BoostedNihilist]

It would be nice if that where the way but most schools have there planes booked so tight someone is sitting on the ground waiting for it to get back. As an instructor I have a duty to my fellow instructors and other students to get the plane back on time. Perhaps consider booking the plane longer to take advantage of a longer flight as antiplano suggested.

I see this situation as an instructor/CFI failing... The student does not have any idea how long it will take him to perform at 'x' level. This is the guys third lesson. By this point his instructor should have a pretty good idea at how fast this guy can climb the learning curve. His instructor should be able to say.. woah, i see that mr x. is on the schedule for an hour and we have climbs, turns, and descents... clearly this is not enough time for him to obtain any value from the flight. Then mr. instructor goes to the cfi, or dispatch, or whoever is in charge of such things and makes the adjustments and phone calls. The schedule should be tailored to fit the student, not tailored to fit the FTU. The plane is flying it is making money, who cares who or how long the who is flying the craft. I've been bumped numerous times due to a multitude of reasons. A respectful phone-call telling me that I have been bumped is all it takes.

[mcrit]

then she would line up with the same road and i would do the descent

There really isn't any reason you couldn't have manouvered the a/c to line up with the road, if fact she should have had you do the line up. So, on the face of that, yeah, you instructor is fucking up. Might want to point this out to the CFI as they are the one's in the best position to unfuck your instructor.

[200hr Wonder]

It would be nice if that where the way but most schools have there planes booked so tight someone is sitting on the ground waiting for it to get back. As an instructor I have a duty to my fellow instructors and other students to get the plane back on time. Perhaps consider booking the plane longer to take advantage of a longer flight as antiplano suggested.

I see this situation as an instructor/CFI failing... The student does not have any idea how long it will take him to perform at 'x' level. This is the guys third lesson. By this point his instructor should have a pretty good idea at how fast this guy can climb the learning curve. His instructor should be able to say.. woah, i see that mr x. is on the schedule for an hour and we have climbs, turns, and descents... clearly this is not enough time for him to obtain any value from the flight. Then mr. instructor goes to the cfi, or dispatch, or whoever is in charge of such things and makes the adjustments and phone calls. The schedule should be tailored to fit the student, not tailored to fit the FTU. The plane is flying it is making money, who cares who or how long the who is flying the craft. I've been bumped numerous times due to a multitude of reasons. A respectful phone-call telling me that I have been bumped is all it takes.

This is true, perhaps I should clarify, the instructor should be telling you to book the plane longer. The point being is that if you are booked for a 2 hour slot, it is not always possible to just keep going longer, that would have to be addressed next lesson. Doing so is not fair to the other students waiting for the instructor or the plane. Put your self in the shoes of the guy waiting on the ground for the instructor or the plane. This is one of my pet peeves among fellow instructors, not getting back on time.