looking for Spec. on Piper Navajo (310 & 350)

[avcanada lover]

Hi I have a few questions. on the Piper Navajo. (310 & 350)

1) What is the average life span (hours) on a well taken care of Navajo? Is there really any time limit on the airframe.
2) At today's fuel prices, what does it cost per hour & per mile to operate a Navajo commercially? (Including EVERYTHING, fuel, maint. insurance, etc.)
3) What in your opinion is a comparable to the navajo to operate and still make money with? Keeping in mind the initial cost of the aircraft, and what it cost per hour to run?
4) I guess this is the same question as #3, but a little different. As Navajo's are aging, what will replace these aircraft? Right now, navajo seem to be the best bang for your buck.

I'm told transwest has these costs down to the penny! If anyone out there is willing to share that with me I'd really appreciate it!

Regards

[iflyforpie]

1) I've seen Navajos with well over 10000 hours and still going strong but by this time they are pretty rough and only hauling cargo. There is no legal time limit on these aircraft.

2) Don't know the operating costs. Fixed annual costs will be less the more hours you fly (insurance, annual maintenance, hangarage/parking).

3) Nothing really. An Islander (and possibly an Otter, but their prices are inflated) will be cheaper to run for shorter hops and a 402 would be slightly more per hour (but might be better per mile). The Chieftain will give you more seats and cargo space for not much more fuel burn.

4) Cessna Caravan. Slightly slower and a bit of a price difference but comparable to what a Navajo would be new if they still made it (a new Baron is 1.1 million).

[slowmo]

1) The lifespan on the navajo airframe is directly proportional to the amount of $$$ you are willing to keep putting into it to keep it in the air. The better the maintained the aircraft, the longer it will last. I have flown a few that have between 14 - 18,000 hrs tt and still look great. Mind you, it also relates to how you intend to use the aircraft. Freight companies tend to care less about how the airplane looks, thus the planes look worse for wear.

2) Relating back to #1, the operational cost really depends on how you use the airplane (freight bags or passengers), short haul or long haul, over the rocks or low over the prairies...which will also impact the amount spend on fuel, maintenance, paint, interiors...etc... The maintenance cost also very sharply with the owner/operators view on pro-active maintenance as oppose to re-active maintenance. The company I’m with puts a lot of effort into keeping our Navajos in good shape. The last cost #'s I saw were approx $490-575/hr, or $2.96/nm including fuel, maint, insur, navcan fee...etc..

3) Comparable equipment again depends on the operation... short haul or Long Haul? High or Low cruise altitudes?? Flight in icing conditions?? Cessna 400 series are nice to fly, they get you over-top of most weather, but have limited pay loads... The Islander is great for short hops, cheaper maintenance, but is really uncomfortably loud for passengers! The Caravan can carry more than the navajo, but comes with a much higher sticker price, and from fellow pilots that have flown them IFR over the rocks, they can get quite scary when encountering ice that in the same condition a navajo could fly through with ease. As for replacements for the navajo there's not much out there, which is why you see a lot of operators continuing to use them.

Hope that helps.

[Captain X]

1) I've seen Navajos with well over 10000 hours and still going strong but by this time they are pretty rough and only hauling cargo.

I flew a PA31-310 with over 15,000 hrs and it was the nicest one I have ever flown. Navajos are only as good as the maintenance and TLC it receives.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I flew a DC3 with over sixty thousand hours on the airframe, fuc.in thing flew just fine.

[x-wind]

Im flying a real nice 310 w/ over 20,000

[ScudRunner]

The most shocking high time plane I flew was a PC-12 built in 1996 that had 25K hours on it!! that was last year. And yet it was the best one in the fleet nothing broke on her my favorite god I miss her.

[iflyforpie]

Worked on a few Convair 580s with over 90,000hrs still in daily service. I guess it's all in how they are taken care of.

[flyinhigh]

For the size of the 350 and cost.

The best competitor would be the Cessna 404. True 9 pax plane plus 2 crew if so needed, lots of cargo space as well pops above all WX and icing just fine.

The down side of the 404 is the geared engines, you have to baby them or your maintenance costs will be way up.

[touch&go]

How are they in icing conditions. Able to fly into known icing? hold of lot? Or is it pucker time if you get into ice with them for a longer period of time.

[who me ?]

A PC-12 built in 1996 with 25,000 hrs !
That is some flying !

My math shows 5.275 hrs every day ! ?
5.275 X 7 days a week = 36.925 hrs per week
36.925 hr per week X 52 weeks = 1920.1 hrs per year
1920.1 per year X 13 yrs ( if it is still going ) = 24,961.3 hrs
( plus this year 2009 is not ye1/2 over yet !! )
They must be one very reliable aircraft ? Not much time for maintenance ?,
or inspections ?
What is engine TBO ? 3500 hrs ?
If so, 7 engine changes ?

WOW !

[iflyforpie]

You see times higher than that in airlines. I worked on an Alaska Airlines 737-900 that was built in 2001 (the year was 2006) with nearly 20,000 hours on it. 300hrs/month is typical when you are running a newer aircraft as the checks aren't to the point yet where you have a ton of down time.

[who me ?]

Sure a 737-900 is built to way higher standards than a PC 12.
737 probably flys alot longer routes !

[nookie201]

Can you clarify few items, from posts above you should have good idea already what -350 will cost you.

How much your storage or hangar costs will be monthly, and if this is freight or passengers.
Insurance is much higher on pass & will affect your hourly costs. also how many hours do you expect to fly per year,
and what are the times on the aircraft you are buying. i.e do you need prop or engine change in 2 weeks or in 10 years ?

IMHO, there's no contender to Navajo in (200-250K)price range/performance/size , Navajo is a workhorse.
404 titan or later 421 would be my next choice, pressurization is nice for pax..but no $$ deal on those.


-G

[Flybaby]

From what I've been told the 402 beat the Navajo per seat on cost before some expensive AD's came out a couple of years ago. I think they apply to the 404 and maybe other Cessna twins.

[marktheone]

I've got a ho (350) with over 20,000 on it. Flys just fine. As fine as a ho can fly anyway.

[Ping Wu]

I have posted my operating cost info previously. I am operating privately, so some of the cost will be different than commercial operations. Also, because we own the aircraft and has no loan or debts, my cost calculation did not include interest expense nor the depreciation (CCA).

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=49687

We have been thinking about upgrading to a turbine or VLJ but the next logical step for us will be a Cheyenne. There isn't much difference between the Navajo and the Cheyenne. The particular aircraft that we are looking at right now is a Cheyenne II. The gentleman who owns it flies it about 260 hours a year. He was kind enough to work out the cost for us. His wet cost is about $700 per hour and the Cheyenne flies approx. 40% faster than the Navajo. For a 500 nm trip, the cost of operating his Cheyenne is about the same as my Navajo.

[nookie201]

Don't forget with Cheyenne you need a POC , Cheyenne weight will add daily nav charges as well.

Have A P-Navajo myself, here's where I'm at;

230kts @ 75% 54gal/hr
195KTS @ 65% 44gal/hr
$475 wet/hr not including purchase costs @ 65%
I'm guessing C421 must be close in numbers.

I love to get a Cheyenne II myself, but it's no a step from Navajo, it's a leap cost wise.

-G

[Ping Wu]

Nookie,

Yes, I am aware of the POC requirement. As the aircraft is operating under one right now, it shouldn't be a problem. The cost of the Cheyenne II came straight from the present owner. He included everything in his calculation.

I am hoping my next plane is going to be a glider. A DG-800 or LS8 will be really nice!!

http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/ls8-pers-f ... cht-e.html