Minimums

[SmokinJoe]

I don't understand what's the point of busting a minimum. Prove that you're better than others?

Have to go to the bathroom???

Seriously though, if you find a nice strait flat stretch of highway and it's a beautiful day, no traffic, and you decide to do 40 over the limit, should you be surprised that you get a hefty fine when a cop pulls you over? No you shoulden't! You knew the limit and busted it. Minimums are the same, if you bust them then don't act surprised when TC busts your ass if something should ever happen and they find out.

[Apache64_]

Well interesting thread. Read an interesting story about Capt. Jepp. Climbed a hill with three altimeters on his back. When to the University, had the mathematicians do the numbers and came up with the height of the hill. With the height of the hill he came up with the minimum height he could use to go into the airport, then added 500' just to be safe. Turns out he was 300' off the height of the hill. This was back when he was just a barnstorming mail pilot. The good ole days of aviation.

The desire to push mins and take a look in familiar territory is great. You may make it once, twice 500 times. Maybe your whole career. One day you may not track right, or your instruments maybe off, you might just have a bad day. You might get bit. Even worse that copilot you taught how to do what you are doing, will learn what you think you know, will think they may know it as well as you and when they are Captain, just might @#$! up what you taught them so well. Who is to blame, the pilot who pushed the minimums, and lost the life of their passengers or the pilot who taught them to push the minimums and the weather?

And for the record, yes I have was an idiot and pushed minimums. I don't anymore.

[iflyforpie]

When you go below a published altitude without the required visual reference, you are doing a conscious act to break the law. Same with flying over gross or not having the required amount of fuel. Ask the Keystone Kid what Tribunal thought of his conscious act of not loading enough fuel. But git'er done right? Done it hundreds of times before.

I'm not so naive to believe that busting minimums doesn't happen or that it hasn't helped someone get in with minimal risk compared to the alternative. A Flightcraft 727 pilot told me they used to say 'Minimums.........................visual' on the ILS into Kelowna because it was usually just that teensy bit lower where they broke out. But it is something I will never endorse or teach others to do.

I wonder if guys with FDRs or GPS tracking on their aircraft do anything different?

[flyinthebug]

A Flightcraft 727 pilot told me they used to say 'Minimums.........................visual' on the ILS into Kelowna because it was usually just that teensy bit lower where they broke out.

iflyforpie.. Im glad to hear that you have not bought into what that KFC skipper taught you.. but as some have pointed out already to me.. you cannot have it both ways. Skipper hears mins and calls visual by default? Or because he knows locally that in 25 ft he will be visual as hes done this approach mon-fri for the past 12 years?
Whether a "teeny bit" or a large amount, breaking regs is breaking regs. I was stating actual numbers I used as "my" personal limits. You are stating the KFC skipper was ok to break limits and call visual ..as long as it was just a teensy bit? So then again the question arises..are they hard numbers or a teensy bit flexible?

Apache_64 You are a gifted pilot and I always felt good when I knew one of our aircraft had you onboard (as F/O at the time). Im glad you`ve learned as you have and are flying within the regs as I always remembered you to.

iflyforpie.. One last thing, FDRs and GPS tracking have had an impact on the larger outfits but has yet to find its way into too much of the 703 operations. In 10 years though, it will become a standard im sure even for 703. and FYI, some managers will turn away from those reports as they were sometimes the ones that "encouraged" the Capt to get the flight in if at all safely possible to do so.. because Shell Canada is a pretty important contract and if we dont get em in, Air XXXXX will. That tends to get a DFO or BM to conveniently look the other way when reviewing a FDR.. and so continues the vicious circle.

The best advice given on this thread so far has come from those that are suggesting we should always fly within the regs and published mins are there for a reason.

Fly safe all.

[Cat Driver]

I'm very interested in what you and LC think, and as flyinthebug indicates lots of other people are too. Is that a yes or a no?

Rockie, I am certain you already know what my advice will be on this issue.

For those of you who truly do want to know my advice on this issue here it is.

The aviation industry has evolved from flying by trial and error to what we have today.

When it comes to how you should fly an airplane under the IFR rules that is simple.

Follow the rules, they were put in place to give you the best safety margin when flying without visual reference to the surface of the earth.

Far better to err on the side of safety than start cutting corners and one day go to far.

Having said that I do truly believe that the rules are getting to micro managed and thereby contributing to the dumbing down of what was once a proud profession by producing a generation of pilots who never had the chance to use their own brain to recognize when something is way out of whack and without rules they will fly blindly on until fate either gets them out of the situation or cleans the gene pool.

That is not the fault of the pilots as they are programmed that way, I do believe though that this micro management of how a pilot will think and perform is sometimes put in place by the dumbest sons of bitches to have ever lived.

Now I shall sit back and wait for those who think I am an imbecile to jump in here and give you all their take on this subject.

I would love to sit down with some of these experts and have them tell me what they would have done in all the situations where it looked like it was almost impossible to survive some of the situations we lived through far away from the comfortable structured world of flying in civilization.

[F,D and H]

more fuel for the fire -- a home brew approach is far safer than a 90 degree circling approach -- and yes "local knowledge" is a must --

Pot is better for you than booze, what's your point? It's still illegal. If I'm a PX on an aircraft I want the crew to abide by the rules.

YAYAYA you're "one with the airplane" (I know that you didn't claim this yourself LC) @#$! off, you're human. AND since it sounds like you're an old timer it probably means that you ARE getting old. I've been flying with old school guys since I was born, my dad included. Thousands and thousands of hours and you know what, I went flying with him recently and he missed things. YOU ARE HUMAN...cold WX calculations aren't 100%, PEOPLE that give you your altimeter setting could be off, YOU could be having an off day and screw up somewhere or you could be in an aircraft that has an altimeter that's off. OR you could have all of those added up which as we all know is usually the case in accidents.

As someone else asked earlier, what's so important? Will your operator not give you your scratch behind the ears if you don't get it?

Out of curiosity, do the corporate guys in here break mins for their clients? The ones who fly around clients who are worth WAY more than any of these redneck owners are worth. What about European ops? Do they "get the job done"?

Finally, what if you FO said no? Do you continue down anyways? If your answer is "yes" than this opens up an entirely new can of worms. Now YOU are the subject of a CRM question.

[Cat Driver]

YAYAYA you're "one with the airplane" (I know that you didn't claim this yourself LC) @#$! off, you're human. AND since it sounds like you're an old timer it probably means that you ARE getting old. I've been flying with old school guys since I was born, my dad included.

You are a real class act F,D and H.

[F,D and H]

I'm very interested in what you and LC think, and as flyinthebug indicates lots of other people are too. Is that a yes or a no?

Rockie, I am certain you already know what my advice will be on this issue.

For those of you who truly do want to know my advice on this issue here it is.

The aviation industry has evolved from flying by trial and error to what we have today.

When it comes to how you should fly an airplane under the IFR rules that is simple.

Follow the rules, they were put in place to give you the best safety margin when flying without visual reference to the surface of the earth.

Far better to err on the side of safety than start cutting corners and one day go to far.

Having said that I do truly believe that the rules are getting to micro managed and thereby contributing to the dumbing down of what was once a proud profession by producing a generation of pilots who never had the chance to use their own brain to recognize when something is way out of whack and without rules they will fly blindly on until fate either gets them out of the situation or cleans the gene pool.

That is not the fault of the pilots as they are programmed that way, I do believe though that this micro management of how a pilot will think and perform is sometimes put in place by the dumbest sons of bitches to have ever lived.

Now I shall sit back and wait for those who think I am an imbecile to jump in here and give you all their take on this subject.

I would love to sit down with some of these experts and have them tell me what they would have done in all the situations where it looked like it was almost impossible to survive some of the situations we lived through far away from the comfortable structured world of flying in civilization.

I don't think that we are really talking about being in a "situation" here. Unless I'm wrong, LC asked if it was ok to break mins to get in in order to "get the job done" or specifically "suck the operator off". Not, you're stuck, you're alternate and second alternate crapped out on you, you have an electrical problem, out of fuel and a sick PX and you HAVE TO GET IN SOMEWHERE I don't think that anyone here would argue that if you're in a situation like that, you fly the approach into the ground if you have to.

[F,D and H]

YAYAYA you're "one with the airplane" (I know that you didn't claim this yourself LC) @#$! off, you're human. AND since it sounds like you're an old timer it probably means that you ARE getting old. I've been flying with old school guys since I was born, my dad included.

You are a real class act F,D and H.

Do I have to explain myself? As the rest of my post explained, if you are getting old, natural things happen, you may miss things. Or were you offended by the comment about my dad??? All that I meant was that he is from the old school and I've seen him do some pretty amazing things with an airplane that I probably wouldn't try myself. Now, he is getting older and flying with him recently, I noticed him missing things.

I don't understand how I offended you?

[yfly]

I'm very interested in what you and LC think, and as flyinthebug indicates lots of other people are too. Is that a yes or a no?

Rockie, I am certain you already know what my advice will be on this issue.

For those of you who truly do want to know my advice on this issue here it is.

The aviation industry has evolved from flying by trial and error to what we have today.

When it comes to how you should fly an airplane under the IFR rules that is simple.

Follow the rules, they were put in place to give you the best safety margin when flying without visual reference to the surface of the earth.

Far better to err on the side of safety than start cutting corners and one day go to far.

Having said that I do truly believe that the rules are getting to micro managed and thereby contributing to the dumbing down of what was once a proud profession by producing a generation of pilots who never had the chance to use their own brain to recognize when something is way out of whack and without rules they will fly blindly on until fate either gets them out of the situation or cleans the gene pool.

That is not the fault of the pilots as they are programmed that way, I do believe though that this micro management of how a pilot will think and perform is sometimes put in place by the dumbest sons of bitches to have ever lived.

Now I shall sit back and wait for those who think I am an imbecile to jump in here and give you all their take on this subject.

I would love to sit down with some of these experts and have them tell me what they would have done in all the situations where it looked like it was almost impossible to survive some of the situations we lived through far away from the comfortable structured world of flying in civilization.

Jumping in... Cat Driver, I called you an imbicile in response to your talking down to a few posters, myself included because of a disagreement on firearm registration. I see that you enjoy being an antagonist at times and sometimes that is great provided it enhances discussion. Perhaps I should have said your posts were that of an imbicile in that thread.

That said, Your post here is excellent and I couldn't agree with you more.

[Rockie]

Follow the rules, they were put in place to give you the best safety margin when flying without visual reference to the surface of the earth.

That is exactly what I knew you would say, but given the tone of this thread and who was reading it I just wanted you to say it. I originally asked LC the question since he started the thread, and it would be nice if the new guys starting out received the same message from him. Thank you for your answer ..

[iflyforpie]

You are stating the KFC skipper was ok to break limits and call visual ..as long as it was just a teensy bit? So then again the question arises..are they hard numbers or a teensy bit flexible?

It all starts with the fact that a DH isn't a hard altitude like an MDA. You are already descending, you even if you initiate the missed right at the DH, you are still going to sink below it. After all, you see the dashed line dipping below it on the plate, right? So you expand that a bit. "Well, if it isn't a hard altitude anyways, why don't we just 'bend' minimums a little more so we can get in".

What I described is not legal, but you can see how easy it would be to corrupt a new F/O into thinking it is okay, especially when they've shot the approach visually before so you can see what the world looks like 50 feet below DH.

and FYI, some managers will turn away from those reports as they were sometimes the ones that "encouraged" the Capt to get the flight in if at all safely possible to do so.

I heard a story of two Metro pilots who work for a company in Kelowna (but I won't mention which one ) who were on the missed after trying to get in. KC chimed in on the radio from his house: "Try again boys!"

[Doc]

YAYAYA you're "one with the airplane" (I know that you didn't claim this yourself LC) @#$! off, you're human. AND since it sounds like you're an old timer it probably means that you ARE getting old. I've been flying with old school guys since I was born, my dad included.

You are a real class act F,D and H.

Do I have to explain myself? As the rest of my post explained, if you are getting old, natural things happen, you may miss things. Or were you offended by the comment about my dad??? All that I meant was that he is from the old school and I've seen him do some pretty amazing things with an airplane that I probably wouldn't try myself. Now, he is getting older and flying with him recently, I noticed him missing things.

I don't understand how I offended you?

So, you don't see how people could find this offensive? Seriously?
I find your comments to be very offensive. Which demographic would you like to insult next? Women under thirty?

[Cat Driver]

F,D and H your comment was at best ill thought out.

Age like any other factor in animals is not something that is measurable across the broad spectrum of any given species.

Having said that it is to be expected that age will improve ones ability to make decisions that are best suited to further survival by being arare of past mistakes.

Personally my decision to retire was based partially on age and mostly on my not wanting to deal with the micro managers in aviation any longer.

When I retired three years ago my cognitive ability and mechanical motor processes were still within the limits that allowed me to pass all my recurrent training tests including holding my air display authority license with no restrictions.

Not having taken any recurrent training nor flight tests in three years I can not guarantee that age has not degraded my mind or motor skills.

However I am going to sleep well tonight with the inner feeling that I just might be able to meet a standard that is close to when I retired.

Also I really don't give a @#$! about passing tests any more.

[Rockie]

It all starts with the fact that a DH isn't a hard altitude like an MDA. You are already descending, you even if you initiate the missed right at the DH, you are still going to sink below it. After all, you see the dashed line dipping below it on the plate, right? So you expand that a bit. "Well, if it isn't a hard altitude anyways, why don't we just 'bend' minimums a little more so we can get in".

An MDA hasn't been a hard altitude for many years either, since commercial operators can obtain a waiver from TC allowing them to treat it as a DH while conducting an SCDA provided they either do PMA's or have an appropriate autoflight capability. But even with that the rules are clear regarding a DH or MDA with the waiver...you are only allowed to descend below that altitude if you are either landing or while executing a missed approach. If you have the required visual reference you can land, if not you go around. Pretty simple.

[Flywest]

I don't get paid extra to bust minimums, and I've never met a Pilot who does.

The paycheque is the same wether you follow the rules or act like an idiot. Only difference with the latter is that you may end up in front of an un-friendly tribunal, suspended, fired......or dead along with your passengers.

[bobcaygeon]

Liquid Charlie and Cat Driver

What makes you guys better than Norm McRae (ZGR 97) I am pretty sure he didn't go to work that day thinking he was going to kill himself, 3 others and steal his FO's ability to function.

He may have been doing that shit for decades like you. He was in his backyard.

It's shit like this where an eye for eye should be the judge, jury, and executioner

I have done some stupid crap but I don't brag or strut on the internet where I can blindly influence others.

[Doc]

Liquid Charlie and Cat Driver

What makes you guys better than Norm McRae (ZGR 97) I am pretty sure he didn't go to work that day thinking he was going to kill himself, 3 others and steal his FO's ability to function.

He may have been doing that shit for decades like you. He was in his backyard.

It's shit like this where an eye for eye should be the judge, jury, and executioner

I have done some stupid crap but I don't brag or strut on the internet where I can blindly influence others.

I've been watching this thread with interest. I can't see where you would find either of these gentlemen strutting, or bragging? These things always turn into shit flings. Let's not go in this direction. Okay?

[Cat Driver]

Liquid Charlie and Cat Driver

What makes you guys better than Norm McRae (ZGR 97) I am pretty sure he didn't go to work that day thinking he was going to kill himself, 3 others and steal his FO's ability to function.

He may have been doing that shit for decades like you. He was in his backyard.

It's shit like this where an eye for eye should be the judge, jury, and executioner

I have done some stupid crap but I don't brag or strut on the internet where I can blindly influence others.

bobcaygeon, what are you talking about?

I thought I answered the question quite plainly.

Rockie, I am certain you already know what my advice will be on this issue.

For those of you who truly do want to know my advice on this issue here it is.

The aviation industry has evolved from flying by trial and error to what we have today.

When it comes to how you should fly an airplane under the IFR rules that is simple.

Follow the rules, they were put in place to give you the best safety margin when flying without visual reference to the surface of the earth.

Far better to err on the side of safety than start cutting corners and one day go to far.

Where did I condone or council pilots to break the rules?

Do you have a problem with the written language?

Please produce some evidence that I did this.

He may have been doing that shit for decades like you. He was in his backyard.

[donnybrook]

As a passenger who frequently flies cross country on AC, and then to smaller towns on the regional airlines, I would just like to say this...

"Please, for the love of God, don't kill me".

Seriously, I'd rather overnight somewhere other than my destination than die in a plane crash. Sometimes this forum scares the shit out of me.

[Doc]

As a passenger who frequently flies cross country on AC, and then to smaller towns on the regional airlines, I would just like to say this...

"Please, for the love of God, don't kill me".

Seriously, I'd rather overnight somewhere other than my destination than die in a plane crash. Sometimes this forum scares the shit out of me.

Thanks for your comments donnybrook. You would not believe the pressure put on pilots of smaller aircraft in remote areas, by passengers! At least the airlines don't really have to deal directly with the passengers.

[Hedley]

Good timing for the old joke ...

A young bushpilot, flying his first season, drops off a bunch
of hunters with his floatplane. He returns, days later, to
pick them up again. Problem is, with their meat, they are
now 'way over max gross.

But the hunters pressure the young pilot - "We've done it
before", they say, and they all pile on board.

Of course, the incredibly overloaded floatplane crashes
into the trees at the end of the lake. No one is hurt, but
the young floatplane pilot is horrified.

"Don't feel bad", the hunters say, "You made it 500 feet
farther than the guy last year!"

[iflyforpie]

It all starts with the fact that a DH isn't a hard altitude like an MDA. You are already descending, you even if you initiate the missed right at the DH, you are still going to sink below it. After all, you see the dashed line dipping below it on the plate, right? So you expand that a bit. "Well, if it isn't a hard altitude anyways, why don't we just 'bend' minimums a little more so we can get in".

An MDA hasn't been a hard altitude for many years either, since commercial operators can obtain a waiver from TC allowing them to treat it as a DH while conducting an SCDA provided they either do PMA's or have an appropriate autoflight capability. But even with that the rules are clear regarding a DH or MDA with the waiver...you are only allowed to descend below that altitude if you are either landing or while executing a missed approach. If you have the required visual reference you can land, if not you go around. Pretty simple.

You still cannot arbitrarily go below the MDA any more than you would a DH. At minimums, you see or you go. You might sink a bit below MDA but this is acceptable in this case.

However I think this thread is about pilots, aircraft, and operations who don't have those approvals who choose to 'make their own rules' with regards to approaches.

[Rockie]

You still cannot arbitrarily go below the MDA any more than you would a DH. At minimums, you see or you go. You might sink a bit below MDA but this is acceptable in this case.

I think that's what I just said.

[flyinthebug]

donnybrook.. You have no idea how many times I wish YOU were my pax and not not the 8 boneheads that just HAVE TO get in. As doc states, its not always management that puts this type of pressure on us.. Its the passengers! its the 7 guys standing on the dock tappin their toes and turning to look at their wrist watches every min that truly can exert far more pressure on a young pilot then even their bosses.

I know *I* have learned something from this thread.. even in your OWN backyard..dont deviate from the known..and everytime *I* "dipped down" a few extra feet, I was taking a chance with my life and my pax lives. Im just young enough to still do stupid things from time to time, but also old enough to appreciate the wisdom and experience on this board!

The mins are there for a reason..adhere to them at all times! Learn from OUR past mistakes.

Fly safe all.