How will a DUI conviction in Ontario affect PPL and CPL?

[hi flyer]

I must say that I am quite embarassed to even bring this issue up, but I find that this site is the most reliable source for everything aviation related. I would appreciate if the answers I got weren't pertaining to the severity of getting behind the wheel of a motorized vehicle, but simply the facts and the effect a conviction of driving over the limit will have on a potential career as a pilot. I am very remorseful and after being COMPLETELY sober the past 8 months, I know that I will never make the same mistake again. This was a once in a lifetime mistake and I'm sure all of us have had slip-ups that we wish we could go back and undo. So my question is, will I be able to obtain a PPL and then once that is achieved a CPL with this on my record? It's not so much the criminal record I am worrying about, as I know that this will only restrict me from entering the US and obtaining a job(until I can apply for a Pardon after 3 years that is). I am most weary of the one year suspension I have on my drivers license. Does this restrict me from operating all vessels? And does Transport Canada have access to my driving/criminal records?
I know that that I look like a complete schmuck right now, but this is something I am looking to overcome as I am only 22. I appreciate any and all answers. Thanks guys and girls.

[Tango01]

I wouldn't worry about it. Future employers may ask or verify though. See if you can go to court and get it cleared up and never do it again!

[E-Flyer]

I must say that I am quite embarassed to even bring this issue up, but I find that this site is the most reliable source for everything aviation related.

It's not the most reliable source.


As far as your dilemma goes; well you made a mistake and you're man enough to say it will never happen again.

As far as your progression goes in obtaining a PPL and CPL, they don't check your criminal record. As far as a career, well, wasn't there a post a few months ago on these boards pertaining to how an American pilot didn't get hired cause he had DUI on his record? Does anybody else recall this thread? I tried the search function but couldn't find it.

DUI is something that stands out, because the employer will ask him self "what can I hold onto to guarantee that he won't bust the 8 hour bottle to throttle rule." Right?

Same thing with speeding tickets, how can the employer guarantee that you won't bust the 250 below 10K rule ? right?


I don't mean to make this post sound dreadful or anything man, like I think airlines only check the past 10 years as far as criminal record checks go, which would put you at 32.

At the end of the day I guess I don't know if DUI would affect you, but I've read and heard cases where DUI status has definitely affected employment; especially a high risk job such as flying.


Be Safe

[A2G]

I think it all depends on the company. I'm sure the major airlines do driving checks, but I know not all of any of the smaller ones do. Well not to the pilots knowledge at least.

[kzcvtm]

It's not so much the criminal record I am worrying about, as I know that this will only restrict me from entering the US and obtaining a job(until I can apply for a Pardon after 3 years that is).

US Border Service and US Government don't recognize Canadian pardons for criminal offenses and if you were flying commercial or even trying to get into the US, you could be turned back. Once turned back, your passport is red flagged and you will never be allowed entry into the US. Don't depend on the pardon. It's not worth the money.

[trey kule]

[quote][/quote]It's not the most reliable source

Are you sure? Because I have never seen anything but the most credable info coming out of these forums. Only those who know with absolute certainity that they are correct post....

Seriously, to answer your questions.. Dont sweat it. I am not sure where you got the US thing or the pardon times.
I would check on the pardon times. That seems awfully short. As to the US, no biggie about entering.

I can only relate to our company policy. We do check driving records. I know there are many on here who like to moralize about the fact you could have easily maimed or killed people..., but we would not look at it to harshly. Get a second one on your record though, and we would not hire you ever...First one is a youthful mistake...second one is a problem....(Hope you got the moral lesson here...I am such a hypocrite).
Maybe surprisingly, we take numerous speeding tickets much more seriously. Folks that continually ignore rules are not ones we want fying our planes. We also take facebook and other internet postings where potential employees brag about their drinking (or posting drunk) as far more indicative of someone to not hire.

[767]

It's not the most reliable source.

agreed. +1

[hi flyer]

Thanks for all the responses.
I stated that this is the most reliable source only because the people gracing this forum may have encountered this situation or at least have second hand knowledge from other pilots. Obviously you can write whatever you want on here but I have simply found that most members only answer if they have even the slightest idea of what they are talking about.
From what I have been told by my lawyer, I would not be able to operate any vessels during my one year driving suspension. Makes me wonder what I'm paying the guy for as he has been unable to show me a single document supporting this claim and everyone else I have spoke to in aviation circles tells me that it will have no effect on the PPL or CPL. So that's good that we all agree on that. As for the employment issue, well that unfortunately is looking pretty grim with the mess I've gotten myself into. The pardon is going to be my only glimmer of hope. I do agree that it seems like a cash grabbing organization but it's really the only shot I've got. I know that the US customs agents have access to Canadian criminal records, but if I don't travel to the US while I still have this conviction on my record, they won't have my records in the system. I could then travel to the US once my pardon is granted (you're right they don't recognize them. But the thing is they will never know of my criminal record because when a record is pardoned it is sealed, therefore cleanes and only resurfaces upon another conviction or under extreme circumstances). And noone has access to those records including police and employers. This is what the Pardons people tell me anyways. The three years after probation is complete is a minimum time I must wait before the Pardon can be processed as I have what is called a summary conviction.(it's all on the Pardons Canada site).
Anyways here I am trying to convince everyone including myself that this is possible but being a pilot is all I've ever wanted to do. And after the completion of university I happened to have a few too many drinks and made a huge mistake. I'm just going to try my hardest to overcome this obstacle. Once again I appreciate your thoughts.
trey kule:
I gotta say that your company policy seems extremely humane and righteous. You're basically saying that "Mistakes are a fact of life. It is the response to error that counts." And I assure you that this whole situation has left a lasting effect on me. I was just wondering is your operation a flying club or an airline? The reason I ask is because I hope to initially instruct once I receive my ratings and I was wondering what kind of process a flying club goes through when hiring instructors. I know they look favourably on people that complete their instructor ratings at their club, but does this mean that they do not follow the same hiring procedures an airline would follow(background check in particular)?

[CLguy]

It will not affect your legal ability to operate an aircraft. Under the Federal Aeronautics Act an airplane is not considered a motorized vehicle nor is it ever referred to as such, it is an airplane. Impaired Driving and the rules pertaining to it falls under the highway traffic act and you will ultimately end up with a criminal record because of it and not be able to operate any motorized vehicle. It does not include airplanes!!

I have known many pilots over the year who have had impaired driving charges and have gone on to have great careers in aviation. Remember flying across the border to the US is only a small part of aviation. There are many great aviation jobs in Canada that will never require you to cross the border but no doubt it limits your choices if the border is closed to you.

[767]

"Mistakes are a fact of life.

I agree. But i dont think DUI is a mistake.

[E-Flyer]

It's not the most reliable source

Are you sure? Because I have never seen anything but the most credable info coming out of these forums. Only those who know with absolute certainity that they are correct post....

Seriously, to answer your questions.. Dont sweat it. I am not sure where you got the US thing or the pardon times.
I would check on the pardon times. That seems awfully short. As to the US, no biggie about entering.

I can only relate to our company policy. We do check driving records. I know there are many on here who like to moralize about the fact you could have easily maimed or killed people..., but we would not look at it to harshly. Get a second one on your record though, and we would not hire you ever...First one is a youthful mistake...second one is a problem....(Hope you got the moral lesson here...I am such a hypocrite).
Maybe surprisingly, we take numerous speeding tickets much more seriously. Folks that continually ignore rules are not ones we want fying our planes. We also take facebook and other internet postings where potential employees brag about their drinking (or posting drunk) as far more indicative of someone to not hire.

Was that an indirect criticism that I don't absolutely know? hehe we all learn somehow I suppose.

You are correct though, the first offense is considered as a youthful mistake, GIVEN that he was a youth. Last I checked 22 is considered an ADULT age. I can bet the hiring committee interviewing you have all done something bad in their lives. However, some company's don't even want that ONE time being listed under their pilot's records. They want the "best."

Driving record is a good indication of somebody's transportation personality. Because it will most likely directly correspond to their flying habits. So then would DRIVING under influence be an indication of a persons transportation habits? Probably not, a repetitive pattern of driving offenses however, well now you're minimizing your chances to get employed.

But I don't know, would a 22 year old be considered a youth, and thereby have his mistakes be considered a YOUTHful mistake? I guess that could have it's arguments. One side of the argument being that car insurance is significantly higher until you pass the age of 24, indicating that you are probably going to do most of your "wreck less" driving until this age. There's a different age for girls and guys right?

Anyway, Trey Kule is in the know, so listen to him, the master. and I'm not being sarcastic, he was 100% right.

[cory_trevor]

It's not so much the criminal record I am worrying about, as I know that this will only restrict me from entering the US and obtaining a job(until I can apply for a Pardon after 3 years that is).

US Border Service and US Government don't recognize Canadian pardons for criminal offenses and if you were flying commercial or even trying to get into the US, you could be turned back. Once turned back, your passport is red flagged and you will never be allowed entry into the US. Don't depend on the pardon. It's not worth the money.

There is a chance that they will not let you enter, but I think that chance is very slim. If they were to turn you back it would not be for the impaired driving alone, it would be for other reasons as well I think. I also got charged with drinking and driving right before I started my PPL. It had no affect on getting my license whatsoever, except for the fact it was hard to find a ride to the airport. I finished my CPL within a year and a half and got a job right away and began flying. I have crossed the border probably 50 times since I got charged and they have never given me a hard time about it. They always ask if I have been charged and I have always been honest with them about it. Good luck with getting your license!

[BoostedNihilist]

But I don't know, would a 22 year old be considered a youth, and thereby have his mistakes be considered a YOUTHful mistake

The government considers every person under 30 a youth. Weird eh?

[A2G]

But I don't know, would a 22 year old be considered a youth, and thereby have his mistakes be considered a YOUTHful mistake

The government considers every person under 30 a youth. Weird eh?

I think thats fair...18 and under = child, 18-30 = youth.

The 20's are some of the best years, and definately full of "youthful experiences". But nearing 30, I can definately say the last half of my 20's has me feeling a lot older. Maybe youth should stop at 25

[E-Flyer]

I stand corrected then, I thought that as soon as you turn legal age, the provincial law considers you an "adult"

[A2G]

I stand corrected then, I thought that as soon as you turn legal age, the provincial law considers you an "adult"

Yeah I think legaly you're right, but the other posters were probably talking about other terms or labels for a certain demographic. I don't really know, I just read that last post and it made me feel good to know I'm still considered "youth" by someone.

[sirtate]

It's not so much the criminal record I am worrying about, as I know that this will only restrict me from entering the US and obtaining a job(until I can apply for a Pardon after 3 years that is).

US Border Service and US Government don't recognize Canadian pardons for criminal offenses and if you were flying commercial or even trying to get into the US, you could be turned back. Once turned back, your passport is red flagged and you will never be allowed entry into the US. Don't depend on the pardon. It's not worth the money.

There is a chance that they will not let you enter, but I think that chance is very slim. If they were to turn you back it would not be for the impaired driving alone, it would be for other reasons as well I think. I also got charged with drinking and driving right before I started my PPL. It had no affect on getting my license whatsoever, except for the fact it was hard to find a ride to the airport. I finished my CPL within a year and a half and got a job right away and began flying. I have crossed the border probably 50 times since I got charged and they have never given me a hard time about it. They always ask if I have been charged and I have always been honest with them about it. Good luck with getting your license!

the chance of a turn-back at US customs is pretty slim for a DUI. as a former trucking company owner, i can tell you that numerous truck drivers have DUI's in their background and routinely enter the US.

the difference is how a DUI is written in the statutes of the two countries;

in Canada a DUI is in the criminal code, as well as the provincial HTA.
in the US a DUI is in the MVC only, not the CFR's

so as far as US CBPA is concerned, you haven't committed a Criminal act, according to their laws.

an American or other foreigner entering Canada has a different scenario, as far as WE are concerned, they have committed a criminal act and can be barred entry. this is where you hear those horror stories about the American trying to go to Vancouver for the weekend and getting turned back at White Rock because he had a DUI.

it is crucial that you check the laws for any country you may visit to ensure that they won't take the same stance as Canada does to foreign DUI's.


as far as the mistake, i get very annoyed when people get high and mighty over somebody who got caught drinking 5 drinks between supper and closing time and operating a car. (yes that would get you a .08 if you weigh 155#)
they make it sound like you were blind drunk. i have friends with access to breathalyzers and a .08 reading floored me, as i would have hopped behind the wheel to go get a pizza (not even to go home) without a second thought. i barely had a glow on. (think; two beers after mowing the lawn)... .10 and i was buzzing though... .12 and my tongue was thick.

it can be a fast slope, i HIGHLY recommend that you try out your very own BAC levels in a controlled environment, it is enlightening. especially when you find out how many times YOU YOURSELF have broken the law and got away with it.

needless to say, i pay closer attention to the speed of my intake now than i did before. good luck...

[Hedley]

A 55 year old American friend of mine has been denied
entry into Canada because of a DUI that he had when
he was 17 years old

P.S. I'm told that Ontario has just dropped it's BAC
from 0.08 to 0.05 for a DUI.

[sirtate]

A 55 year old American friend of mine has been denied
entry into Canada because of a DUI that he had when
he was 17 years old

P.S. I'm told that Ontario has just dropped it's BAC
from 0.08 to 0.05 for a DUI.

.05 gives you an automatic overnight suspension for your first 'oops', escalation after that...

.08 starts the criminal process... it really is witch hunt... why won't they enforce lane discipline on the 401, that would save more lives than this .05 thing... oh, i get it; MADD has lined some pockets in Toronto.. (incidently, MADD has the highest 'management cost percentage' of ANY charity...the 'mothers' keep 81cents of every dollar given... http://www.thestar.com/News/article/145916)...

don't get me wrong, if you are intoxicated, you are a reckless fool if you operate ANY piece of machinery...
but with the current rules in Ontario, my wife has one glass of wine with supper at Swiss Chalet, throws the kids in the car and becomes a criminal? (.05 BAC= 1 serving in one hour for a 120# person)... why don't we just outlaw drinking... that worked in the 1920's for the states, didn't it?

your 55 yr old buddy could have entered Canada right up until they added DUI to the criminal code... now he's a 'convicted felon'...

i think we need stiff penalties to give us pause before we drive, but .05 is excessive. if the majority of the citizens break the law, then the law is unjust. (in a democracy)

[Wilbur]

With an impaired driving conviction the suspension of your driver's licence is automatic, and the court can extend that suspension to include boats and airplanes. But unless the judge made that order your ability to fly is not impacted.

Your understanding of the impact of crossing the border is bang on. Crossing the border with the impaired conviction on your record is taking a chance. It's unlikely a US border agent is going to ask or check to see if you if you have a criminal record, and even less likely they would deny entry on that basis. However, if they do ask or check, the info will be in their system forever. If they ask and you lie, you will most likely be denied entry and then find yourself having a very difficult time ever again getting into the US. However, once you have a pardon your record is sealed and can not be accessed through a normal criminal record check. US Border Services won't have any way of knowing about your impaired conviction by checking CPIC.

Applying for a pardon is an easy process administered by the National Parole Board and you don't need to pay some pardon service business to do it for you as long as you can read and follow simple instructions. Once granted a pardon, and it may take a while, I would probably give it another year before crossing the border as it may take time for everything to be processed and your record to be removed from CPIC.

Your application can be made 3 years after completion of your sentence (driving suspension, probation, community service, etc). I don't know what the backlog currently is, but I would guess it will take about a year for your application to be processed. Then, give it another year before crossing the border. So, depending on your sentence, you're looking at 5-6 years before being able to cross the border with reasonable assurance your history won't cause you problems. There is, however, one potential problem with an impaired conviction. Pardon's only apply to federal government agencies, not provinces and municipalities or their agencies and police forces. Therefore, if your province shares their motor vehicle and driver's licence databases with US Border Services, your impaired conviction will still show up regardless of your pardon. If your current province does not share info with the US, but you move to a different province that does, it will still likely show up as the province you move to will obain that info from the province you left and then share it.

Clearing your record of an impaired is near impossible due to the info being held in CPIC, provincial data bases, and insurance company data bases.

[BoostedNihilist]

It's unlikely a US border agent is going to ask or check to see if you if you have a criminal record, and even less likely they would deny entry on that basis. If they ask and you lie, you will most likely be denied entry and then find yourself having a very difficult time ever again getting into the US.

Actually, if they ask, and you lie it is a far more serious situation than you have outlined here wilbur. Generally, when entering the USA, if they are interested in your legal status they will ask you to fill out a declaration. It asks about various things, posession of weapons and narcotics, goods to claim etc, also on this form is a declartion of criminal conduct. If you get a delcaration sheet fill it out truthfully, even if you are a criminal.

Under the american system it is your responsibility to tell them you have been convicted of a crime. They base their actions on this. Once you have attempted to enter the USA (i.e. going to the border) and attempt to enter under false pretenses (i.e. you are not a criminal) and they find out, you have commited a felony. This is a rather big deal. If you do this, you submit yourself to possible forfeiture of the vehicle you are in and all posessions therein. I am not saying this will happen, but it *CAN* happen so make sure if they ask that you tell the truth. If you tell the truth when they ask, then they can/will simply deny you entry.

[scudrunn3r]

DUI is something that stands out, because the employer will ask him self "what can I hold onto to guarantee that he won't bust the 8 hour bottle to throttle rule." Right?

For every 200 people who drink drive in Canada, one is cought.
You can bet police officers, judges and senators all do it too.

The one's who are cought are the ones who are looked down upon, and must face some of the harshest penalties in the free world!
The one's who are not, enjoy a trouble free life.

I know people who are training to fly right now, that have played the russian roulette game of drink driving, and not been cought yet.
What people need to realise is that sometimes, even a couple of drinks with dinner can net you with a DUI!
It seems that the system has been put in place to deter people away from drink driving completely, but who hasn't had two pints with dinner and driven home?

I would have to say- One DUI, and your reputation is recoverable- frankly people are punished far and away enough for this offence first time round. Should the same person recieve a second, then they really can be deemed irresponsible, and that is when a criminal record should be issued.

We are all human, after all, and should be given the ability to right our wrongs.
I know I'm new here, but these guys seem to know what they're talking about...
Just stay out of further trouble and you'll be fine bud..

[A2G]

So is a 24hr different from a DUI?

The only time I had an issue is when I was younger, and I had the "N" out here on the west coast that basically said 0% BAC for anyone who has an N. Since I had a couple beers I obviously failed it. But I was aparently under the .08(blew orange) so I still got a 24hr and an associated mandatory 1month suspension(all due to the new driver program).

But now that I got rid of my N, I'd like to know how it works. If I'm over .08 is it mandatory DUI charge, or can you just get a 24hr which is not as bad? I don't really drink and drive, but I'd still like to know what the rules are.

Oh yeah, I'm in BC

[altiplano]

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[chephy]

i think we need stiff penalties to give us pause before we drive, but .05 is excessive. if the majority of the citizens break the law, then the law is unjust. (in a democracy)

Firstly, the law is not necessarily unjust because the majority break it. Whatever the majority does is not automatically right (think back to racial segregation for a dramatic example). Secondly, there is no evidence that the majority of citizens break the law; it's just your perception, based on your circle of acquintances. So let me counteract this with my own observation.

Most of my friends are young, car-free downtown dwellers, but among my all of my parents' friends there is a very strict policy of ZERO BAC when driving. And they are not particularly uptight about alcohol in general; however, they know that when it comes to driving, they don't want any alcohol in their blood. Not even a trace. One reason for that is that as you very aptly pointed out, it's difficult to judge one's own level of intoxication. It's not only BAC that is difficult to determine without equipment, but also to what extent your driving skills have degraded. As a pilot, you surely know about those test they performed, giving people simple math problems to do while gradually lowering the pressure in the room in which the subjects were writing. When questioned on how they did, they thought they did great, while in reality they couldn't add 2 and 2. Of course, alcohol intoxication is not the same thing as hypoxia, but there is a similar tendency to overestimate one's performance levels. It has been shown that even low levels of BAC produce significant impairment of driving skills, though the subjects themselves have often been unaware of this. Here is just one reference.

Given the number of collisions and just the sheer amount of poor driving one witnesses daily, anything that further lowers the population's driving skills is outlawed for a good reason.

You might, of course, argue that you're such a great driver that even with a minor impairment you are above average, and perhaps that's even true, but the law can't be based on YOUR abilities, right? Similarly, there are lots of people who're responsible and deserving of the title "adult" at 17, and many who are very immature at 21, but that doesn't change the fact that everyone becomes "adult" at 18, since there is no way to test every single person in the country to find out when exactly that person is grown-up enough to be called an adult.