starting on PPL and would love your input!

[nikos]

Greetings everyone...I've decided to stop being a lurker and would like some opinions!

I'm planning to work on a PPL soon and have some questions that hopefully some of you can help with.

I would like to attend a local flight school for ground school and then work with an independent flight instructor (if I can find one) who is not necessarily an instructor at the flight school. The reason for this is simply because I am trying to minimise costs by paying the instructor directly, however I have no idea if this is either possible or practical.

I would appreciate any info on possible problems i may encounter in going this route vs a more traditional method. Any success stories would also be greatly appreciated!

Nikos

[Shiny Side Up]

The reason for this is simply because I am trying to minimise costs by paying the instructor directly, however I have no idea if this is either possible or practical.

It is possible, not always practical. Minimising the costs of your flight training shouldn't be the primary goal of it. What are your other goals in terms of flying airplanes? You'll probably find that setting what you want out of the training first will probably show you your best path - which might also end up being the most economical.

[iflyforpie]

First, make sure you've get your medical before you start training. That way you won't have any delay for your first solo.

Second, freelance instructors are great, but you need to have your own aircraft. You cannot rent an aircraft from a flight school for flight training this way (even if they allowed you to do so for these purposes). If you are an aircraft owner doing it the freelance way can have some advantages, like cost savings (most school will charge a syllabus fee in addition to the hourly instructor rate for students with their own aircraft). But it can also have some disadvantages, like being stuck with one instructor--ie, his teaching ways, his schedule, etc.

If you don't own an aircraft, you need to go through an FTU. Shop around and see which ones you like. Don't be fooled by low prices, you often get what you pay for.

[Hedley]

Correct - it is illegal for a freelance flight instructor
to perform ab initio training, UNLESS the person
receiving the training owns the aircraft.

See CAR 406.03(2)(b)(iii):

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#406_03

(2) A person who does not hold a flight training unit operator certificate may operate a flight training service if

(b) the trainee is

(i) the owner, or a member of the family of the owner, of the aircraft used for training,

(ii) a director of a corporation that owns the aircraft used for training, and the training is other than toward obtaining a pilot permit - recreational or a private pilot licence, or

(iii) using an aircraft that has been obtained from a person who is at arm’s length from the flight instructor, and the training is other than toward obtaining a pilot permit - recreational or a private pilot licence.

[nikos]

Thanks for the input guys. This helps clear up a lot of (false) assumptions I made. Looks like it's time to choose a flight school!

[Lurch]

Thanks for the input guys. This helps clear up a lot of (false) assumptions I made. Looks like it's time to choose a flight school!

Small correction

Time to choose a flight instructor

This is how you will reduce your costs and frustrations

Lurch

[viennatech]

Correct - it is illegal for a freelance flight instructor
to perform ab initio training, UNLESS the person
receiving the training owns the aircraft.

See CAR 406.03(2)(b)(iii):

Once past PPL level, would it then be okay according to the regs? Say I want to use a club aircraft to take my night rating, would the rule still apply?

[just curious]

Both Lurch and Hedley are correct.

Look for a school for:

• convenience,
• an aircraft that fits you, physically, and your vision of what you want to fly in.
• Aircraft availablity (If you are a teacher and have all summer off, do not choose a school with the Air Cadet contract. They must have priority.)
• A groundschool that meets your schedule... not just for making it to class, but doing the required reading during the week, the five minute review after class, and the review the next day. This is an over-looked part of studying that will drive up your training costs and time.
• A headset and intercom system that is effective, cleaned off routinely, and snag free.
• Maintenance do they have their own maintenance facility, or do they fly halfway to LA to get stuff fixed!
• Their training facilities. Do they look as if they will be around 20 years from now? Are the classroom and briefing office spaces pigsties? Do they have solid looking training aids, or are instructors fighting over who gets to use the model with one wing pulled off?

Your Instructor

• Interview your potential instructors like you were thinking of hiring them, because you are! If you are a Sergeant Major in the Army, and your potential instructor looks like Satan, with an extra 50 pounds and no recent evidence of grooming, the chemistry probably isn't there. You aren't dating, but there needs to be some chemistry. You are going to spend 200 hours with them is you are doing a private, and 400 for a commercial. How much quality time did you spend with your significant other this month? Thought not.
• They teach better if they have some sort of life. If you can only fly while their wife has no sitter, that's not gonna work. If he's instructing, she NEEDs to work
• Here's a link to a student checksheet... fill it out and have several copies to hand out. Have your potential instructor complete them too. Note down their birthday, wife's birthday, Anniversary... Don't call and book them for that day at 5 PM http://www.cfitocfi.com/downloads/67m9_cfi.pdf
• Instructors make crap money. Your kid's driving instructor makes more. No, reallly! Don't arrive in your weekend Maserati, and complain about your detailer's lousy job! Instead, when you book your morning session (preparatory ground brief, departure brief walkaround, lesson, debrief) 3.0 hours, ask him if they want to go for lunch and debrief, and buy their lunch. Doesn't have to be steak and lobster, but that subway meal is an hour's $ after taxes for him.
• Your instructor has to be a lecturer in reciting things you must know by rote, and a coach in helping you apply what you've previously learned to your new skills, infinitely patient when you run into a plateau of learning. They alternate between guiding monitoring demonstrating, and sometimes outright saving your ass! Try to be worthy of that much effort for 60 bucks a day by doing your homework, asking questions and remembering the answers.
• Ask if the instructor has handouts for the lesson to be taught, and a review sheet of questions for after. One) They should, and Two) You're going to need them Three) do your instructor and yorelf the courtesy of keeping all this handouts for review after the day.
• Inquire as to whether they have a time that they could be reached for phone call type questions, and can you reach an agreement as to cost.
• Hey, it's Canada, we have seasons and weather. Somedays you can't get out to the training area. Sometimes you can't get out to the runway. It happens. See if your instructor can have a plan for days when you regularly scheduled lesson won't work out. Hangar flying, getting an engineer to take you for a walkaround, discussions of significant training related accidents, what to sample in a refueller's truck or cabinet. Slideshows, sitting in on an instructor briefing training session...

Look into yourself for:

• Google flight training blogs, audio and video podcasts, PDF files for learning the exercises you are working on. Use the heck out of them.
• If the things you find are PDF downloads, put them on a thumbdrive, copy it to your instructor's computer and seek their opinion.
• Get the audio recording adapter for your Ipod. Record your prep ground brief. Listen to what you just learned on the car stereo on the way home. Listen to it 7 days later. and maybe 30 days later again. You'll remember it till you're 95. It's a law of learning thing.
• There is a small clamp for cameras like a tripod with a vice grip. There is a hack for canon pocket cameras to give them menu selections like an SLR (search thru lifehacker.com it's free!) Set the camera to click a picture every 2, 4 or 5 seconds. Go flying with it in it's clamp looking out the front window. Use moviemaker or something to merge it into a movie. Voila! your whole lesson available for review.
• Mege your flight movie with the ground briefing and you now have a video podcast!
• Time management skills- can you show up prepared for your lesson, having done the pre-reading, listened to the podcast, and reviewed the video of your last flight? Do you know how to use a phone, call the instructor and say, I am late, I didn't study, my head isn't in it today... and face the financial consequences?
• You are entering into a relationship with someone you will know and remember for decades. You aren't sleeping with them. So you have to get to know each other so that they can tell you honestly what progress you are or are not making. Unlike a relationship where you are sleeping with someone, when you are handed over to someone else, it's without all the recriminations. So, along the way, if you see a training aid they could use better than what they have, maybe think about picking them one up for their birthday. It might seem like extra money but a cheeseburger and a 10 dollar model airplane might make your training 1000 dollars cheaper. Or more.

Ten things your instructor wishes you knew
http://www.avweb.com/news/avtraining/184967-1.html

[Shiny Side Up]

I'd agree with the above with a few exceptions.

A headset and intercom system that is effective, cleaned off routinely, and snag free.

Look into purchacing your own headset. Regardless of how good of shape the flightschool's extras are, they might be uncomfortable, and you usually are going to have to mess around with resizing it every time you use it. Borrow for you first couple flights if need be, but get your own headset that meets your needs, its very worth it if you're serious about your training.

Instructors make crap money. Your kid's driving instructor makes more. No, reallly! Don't arrive in your weekend Maserati, and complain about your detailer's lousy job! Instead, when you book your morning session (preparatory ground brief, departure brief walkaround, lesson, debrief) 3.0 hours, ask him if they want to go for lunch and debrief, and buy their lunch. Doesn't have to be steak and lobster, but that subway meal is an hour's $ after taxes for him.

Especially if you pull up in your Maserati don't try to haggle on the instructor rate, or complain that you're paying too much, but its not a good idea period. Its generally not a good idea to tell anyone that you don't think they're worth the money they're charging. If you feel that strongly about it its best to go somewhere else.

I would also disagree about the 3 hours for a lesson booking, though this also depends on the circumstances of the flight school. Something to think about though - if you are looking to save money a school that needs excessively long flight times which include long transit and wait times to a practice area or in the hold short bay might not be the best choice. In my experience most people have a very short learning span where it is crucial to get the point across and past the 1.5 hour mark is up their ability to learn stuff decreases dramatically.

Don't request excessively long bookings as well unless it fits the lesson for the day (for example the navigation trips). Free yourself from the notion of needing to "build your time" or "get your hours" those aren't the goals here. Remember that the instructor has other students they must attend to as well, and fair is fair, they also deserve his/her time. If you feel that you deserve to monopolize their time, then remember you're decreasing his/her ability to work or make money.

Ask if the instructor has handouts for the lesson to be taught, and a review sheet of questions for after. One) They should, and Two) You're going to need them Three) do your instructor and yourself the courtesy of keeping all this handouts for review after the day.

I generally don't give much for handouts. If we brief about stalls I expect for you to take notes. Firstly I find as soon as a student gets a handout, they immediately put their pencil down and make the assumption that everything they need is on what has been given to them. When people go through the act of writing something down it makes a better imprint on their memory. I ain't shy about giving students homework projects and questions to find out. I'm serious about it - you show me you're serious and write it down.

Inquire as to whether they have a time that they could be reached for phone call type questions, and can you reach an agreement as to cost.

For instructors I make the point of telling them never to give out their personal numbers. I made the mistake of doing it in the past, and won't do it again. It will bite you. IF you want to have a question period with an instructor then be serious about it and book time with him/her. Or if you're thinking of just dropping by to pick their brain, bring a coffee or the beer. I generally refuse to answer a lot of questions on the phone simply because there's too much room for confusion and misunderstanding. I won't be able to give you a satisfactory answer if you're looking at diagram 3.1 and trying to describe it to me.

Most of the above is stylistic preferences and you'll find differing opinions from instructor to instructor. Pick the one who works best for you.

[BoostedNihilist]

Totally, if you're not feeling it about an instructor bail... but call first.

Anyways, a few things I learned.

Go to a school which gives you handouts. If you want to take something seriously you have to learn from others who take it seriously. If you don't get a binder you could kill an intruder with (commonly referred to as a syllabus) then shop around. Maybe, back in the day you could get away without paper, but we have paper now so deal with it. Besides, that paper is a good map for you to measure your progress with. Without a map, how do you know where you are? If you don't know where you are how do you know you are not getting screwed? Besides, in the real world, everybody knows that paper runs aviation so students should be indoctrinated early.

Tip your instructor every time. Doesn't have to be money, but a coffee or a snack. Everybody likes a snack.

Book the three hours. Think about it. You get to the school and you go to the plane. You dip the tanks, go do your planning, brief, come back walk around, get in, run up, go come back and shut down... sit for a few minutes inhaling the lesson then go debrief. This takes three hours to do properly. If you do not book for three hours you will be rushed to do proper planning and briefing because the plane will not be there.

[Lurch]

[*]Instructors make crap money. Your kid's driving instructor makes more. No, reallly! Don't arrive in your weekend Maserati, and complain about your detailer's lousy job! Instead, when you book your morning session (preparatory ground brief, departure brief walkaround, lesson, debrief) 3.0 hours, ask him if they want to go for lunch and debrief, and buy their lunch. Doesn't have to be steak and lobster, but that subway meal is an hour's $ after taxes for him.

Bring the Maserati and let your instructor take it for a spin

The lunch suggestion is a good one, great for building relationships with your Instructor/Student

After you medical your next investment should be a headset, nothing fancy buy the DC 14.5s worked great for me for 10 years before I upgraded, they still work great only sent $20 in that ten years, boom cover and new gels.

I have to disagree with Shiney Side up and agree with Boosted, 3 hour bookings are the way to go. 2 hours are not enough time to accomplish what you need to and you wll see that details will get missed.

I don't agree with handouts if given prior to the briefing

Lurch

[2R]

Get some King school dvd's and Sporty dvd's they will help your understanding and pay for themselves .
Both are well worth the money .The students with the DVD's always finish at least ten hours ahead of those without.
Get the Flight training manual and read it until you are bored with it as it will help .The Transport Canada Flight training manual is one of the best tools you will have .That and some quiet time to study will help make you a safe competant pilot.

[767]

Small correction

Time to choose a flight instructor

This is how you will reduce your costs and frustrations

Lurch

Nikos, choose Lurch as your instructor!!

[767]

I generally don't give much for handouts. If we brief about stalls I expect for you to take notes. Firstly I find as soon as a student gets a handout, they immediately put their pencil down and make the assumption that everything they need is on what has been given to them. When people go through the act of writing something down it makes a better imprint on their memory. I ain't shy about giving students homework projects and questions to find out. I'm serious about it - you show me you're serious and write it down.

Well, I find that if the student needs to write down notes, the instructor will have to pause each time they give a speech. The student usually cant do two things at once, that is, listen to their instructor and write notes at the same time.

[Lurch]

Small correction

Time to choose a flight instructor

This is how you will reduce your costs and frustrations

Lurch

Nikos, choose Lurch as your instructor!!

Thanks for the vote of confidence 767

Unfortunately I haven't taught a PPL in close to 2 years

Lurch

[nikos]

Thanks to everyone for your input!

I work in Markham so I'm leaning towards going to Toronto Airways since it's 10mins from the office. If anyone has any recommendations for instructors there send me a pm with the info!

[Shiny Side Up]

Go to a school which gives you handouts. If you want to take something seriously you have to learn from others who take it seriously. If you don't get a binder you could kill an intruder with (commonly referred to as a syllabus) then shop around. Maybe, back in the day you could get away without paper, but we have paper now so deal with it. Besides, that paper is a good map for you to measure your progress with. Without a map, how do you know where you are? If you don't know where you are how do you know you are not getting screwed? Besides, in the real world, everybody knows that paper runs aviation so students should be indoctrinated early.

First I should clarify, that I do indeed make sure the students get all the materials they need for their learning, to handouts I was more referring to the "cheat sheet" type handouts that come with every lesson that some I have seen give out to their students which I find is a grievious error. Examples would be checklist type cards for every activity the student might do in the airplane from radio calls to the version of the safety check before a stall. Yes the student should have reams of paperwork to help with their training, No these shouldn't find their way into the airplane.

Well, I find that if the student needs to write down notes, the instructor will have to pause each time they give a speech. The student usually cant do two things at once, that is, listen to their instructor and write notes at the same time

Yes, sometime you might have to pause. This usually isn't an issue for most people as usually most can exceed your expectations and indeed do two things at once. Which is good, as that demand will often be made of them in the airplane - they also might elect to chew bubblegum while doing it too. Granted one of your lengthy checklists might be hard to transcribe while listening at the same time.

Book the three hours. Think about it. You get to the school and you go to the plane. You dip the tanks, go do your planning, brief, come back walk around, get in, run up, go come back and shut down... sit for a few minutes inhaling the lesson then go debrief. This takes three hours to do properly. If you do not book for three hours you will be rushed to do proper planning and briefing because the plane will not be there.

I don't mean to pick, but from what you've just described here we certainly can be more efficient with our time. Firstly why dip the tanks, then plan, then walk around? Why not walk around when you dip the tanks? Save you a few trips walking back and forth to the airplane and as well you might as well determine right from the start if the airplane is good to go - no sense doing your planning only to find there's something wrong with the plane and have to start again. If the plane needs fuel and oil off the start, get someone on taking care of it from there, rather than wait. Unless you have a lengthy journey to your practice area pre-flight planning is pretty minimal. How long are we alloting someone to walkaround and sign out?
How long are we briefing for? Sometimes the briefing can be accomplished, before the walkaround if its convinient say if the airplane is being fueled at the time or still taxiing in. Get busy! I'll admit I see this at a lot of flight schools - instructors and students aimlessly wandering around between items. A big tip is try to cut out the bullshitting that people are prone to do when you and the student are on the meter. IF I see my student who's supposed to be walking around chatting away outside with someone on the ramp, I got no problems politely reminding them we have work to do - there's plenty of time for idle chit-chat after the lesson.

I'm reminded of a worker I had once where I was wondering why it was taking him so long to paint this wall, until I watched him in action - it didn't occur to him to take the bucket with him while he worked (you think I'm pulling this from an old joke - but not a word of a lie I seen this in action)

Long story short, when the student walks in the door, get him on task. This has a practical side to it as well when it comes to the student's learning. I want to get the student on track ASAP when they get here, any idle time and focus is lost. Like I said, after the first hour or so, their ability to absorb info drops off. Be efficient.

I will say though that I heartily advise a student to make sure they have plenty of leeway in terms of time they dedicate towards their lesson. This means lots of time before and after their booking to ensure they are not late for the booking or late for something after the booking. If the student is in the air worrying about getting back on the ground because time between the lesson and time to pick up their kids from school is tight that lesson is going to be a waste of time. People learn poorly when another priority occupies their attention.

[Red Seven]

As a newly minted pilot I would like to add a couple of points from a non-instructor view.

First, dedicate from 1 to 4 hours of study for the written test for every hour spent flying. Do this from day one and you will likely be well prepared for the written test well before you take your flight test. I did well on the test but had to spend an uncomfortable amount of time at the end to get up to speed for the test.

Spend lots (I repeat: LOTS) of time hanger flying whether it be in a chair at home or in a plane on the apron. Run through your procedures over and over and over on the ground and you will be much better prepared in the air. This can also save you tons of money.

As for finishing cheap in low hours....I choose to do otherwise. It is better to get your license with lots of time than setting a record for the cheapest training as it relates to being a better, safer pilot.

Once you have your license your training is not over. It is just in it's second phase. Don't put the books away. After every flight ask yourself what you learned and what you can focus on improving next time. Between every flight study some more.

You are going to love doing this. I may very well be the greatest thing you do in your life. Enjoy every minute!

[BoostedNihilist]

By all means, pick away.

I don't mean to pick, but from what you've just described here we certainly can be more efficient with our time. Firstly why dip the tanks, then plan, then walk around? Why not walk around when you dip the tanks? Save you a few trips walking back and forth to the airplane and as well you might as well determine right from the start if the airplane is good to go - no sense doing your planning only to find there's something wrong with the plane and have to start again.

More 'efficient' perhaps. However, I believe the walk-around should be done immediately before the flight. This ensures that your aircraft is safe and ready at the TIME of the flight, not half an hour before when you dipped the tanks. You never know what happens to your plane while you are not there looking at it. I mean who knows, maybe a bug has flown into your pitot tube or static port.. could be any stupid thing... To me, it might not be the height of efficiency however it is logical in the interest of safety and airmanship... imo of course.

If the plane needs fuel and oil off the start, get someone on taking care of it from there, rather than wait. Unless you have a lengthy journey to your practice area pre-flight planning is pretty minimal. How long are we alloting someone to walkaround and sign out?

I always dip the oil when I dip the tanks. That way, if the aircraft DOES need oil it can be done by the appropriate personell while I am planning and brieifing. Then, before I go flying I do the walkaround and get to double check the oil quantity. If the aircraft needs fuel then fuel it, re-dip (for an accurate weight/balance) and go from there.

How long are we briefing for? Sometimes the briefing can be accomplished, before the walkaround if its convinient say if the airplane is being fueled at the time or still taxiing in. Get busy!

Brieifing... I personally feel I get the most out of about a 15-20 minute brief. Unless the same flight is being conducted, then sometimes half a brief or a minimal brief is acceptable. The sign out.. well, depending on a number of things which can go wrong this can take from 30 seconds to 15 minutes...

People learn poorly when another priority occupies their attention.

I believe this also holds true in reverse for instructors... which brings me back to booking the plane for three hours... It is in everybodies best interest.

[767]

First, dedicate from 1 to 4 hours of study for the written test for every hour spent flying.

Well, i share the same opinion.

However, what should the student do if they get "bored"? in other words, when the so called "fun" is not happening.

As far as the time limit goes, i guess it depends on the student. The slow learners will probably need more time. At the end of the study period, the student should have most of the information absorbed, or if possible, all of it. I dont see the need to limit yourself for time, but yes you should take breaks in between.

[E-Flyer]

nterview your potential instructors like you were thinking of hiring them, because you are! If you are a Sergeant Major in the Army, and your potential instructor looks like Satan, with an extra 50 pounds

That has nothing to do with the chemistry, and the competency of the instructor as a pilot and a teacher. There are many overweight pilot's out there, just look at a good portion of the guys walking around in the terminals.

If he/she is good at what they do, he/she will be good regardless of their weight and physical attribution.