Granny Gas

[Donald]

Are you saying that it is O.K. to fly over the legal weight as long as the over weight is gas by using that flawed logic Donald?

I never said that, I just asked a question. Trying to keep this thing going...

[spaner]

Post deleted

[ywg9]

I am not to sure about what happened on the 748 to start this conversation but it is an interesting one. I agree with the theory that if granny fuel is used to off set flight planned fuel that is wrong, do a proper flight plan and take the fuel you need for on route hold app landing and alternate and any other possible delays. However to say that because we all have the fancy new TVs that tell us where to go and that we have better wx reports I do disagree partly, we still have locals giving UNOFICIAL weather lol now Knowing that it should still be included and shown on the flight plan...but even with that fancy new gps that does a million and one things, wx radar and other navigation equip the fuel system on the turbo prop I fly hasn't been updated since it rolled of the factory floor. Totalizers are great and tell you how much fuel you have burned, but with a 20-30 year old fuel measuring system I wonder how close are what those gauges tell me to what I actually have on board. me personally I take between 100-200 extra pounds maybe 10-15 mins worth. I don't do it so that I can dock my flight planned fuel so the company can make extra couple bucks shipping extra pop (what is on the flight plan is what I need everything included no funny math). I do it because I don't trust the fuel mans truck 100% and it could be 100% possible my fuel gauges are out a bit. that's what I take a little extra granny for not to make the company extra money.

[Cat Driver]

Where do you get fuel where you suspect the fuel truck can be out by 100 to 200 pounds of fuel every time you fuel up?

I have found that the numbers for fuel burn I come up with using a fuel totalizer always fall within 1 to 2% of the numbers I enter into the data base of the totalizer.

[spaner]

Post deleted

[ywg9]

I am usually with in 30-50 pounds one way or another, so my planning is bang on what i put on paper so what. i didnt say every truck was out buy 100 pounds i am sure esso test there trucks. I am saying that there is the possibilty that from the time the fuel leaves the truck to the time it is in my wings there could be a little bit of a discrepency. now it might mean that it works out to a little more but it could mean that it also works out to a little less. in any case i am going to take the worst so i dont think it is imprudent to take a 10-15 mins of gas for a fudge factor in the event that the truck is out by 50lbs and maybe my gauges were out by 50lbs.

[Cannonballer]

I thought the only time you had too much fuel on board was when you were on fire.... anyway you guys can discuss this all you want but i know for a fact that "Granny Gas" weighs zero lbs!!!!

[Drive_it_in]

Well said Cannon

[Cat Driver]

"Granny Gas" weighs zero lbs!!!!

Well said Cannon

I missed that information in my training and in the day to day operation of aircraft.

Where did you guys learn that?

[The Old Fogducker]

.:

Very likely the same place they picked up great airframe handling skills that led to dumbass sayings like "Any landing you can walk away from is a good one."

The Old Fogducker

[Cat Driver]

Yeh OFD I guess we are from the stone age and our training was not up to today s standard.

Oh well somehow we survived.

By the way has poor airmanship been replaced by " shit happens " ?

[Cannonballer]

You guys need to lighten up. That comment was just a little attempt at humour. Wrong crowd i guess.

[yfly]

You guys need to lighten up. That comment was just a little attempt at humour. Wrong crowd i guess.

Why should they? Maybe they have a point. Cave scribble is far better than anything Monet ever did. Why evolve?

[Cat Driver]

Cannonballer when one makes light of a serious issue one runs the risk of others thinking you are being serious......

....like this person seems to have...

Well said Cannon

If a pilot believes they can taylor the rules to suit their own agenda that pilot may someday get tripped up when being interviewed or background checked by a very desirable employer......

.....if they haven't killed them self before they get to that point in their career.

[iflyforpie]

I've got a few questions--this being my first exposure to 'granny gas' and all.

How do you determine which gas you burn?

You are at airport 'A' and decide to take an extra '1000 lbs' of this miraculous weightless fuel which would put you 1000 lbs over gross if it was normal fuel. You then fly to airport 'B', burning 1000 lbs of fuel and you don't upload fuel anymore for going to airport 'C'.

Is the plane still at max gross, but with none of the weightless 'granny gas'? Or is it now 1000lbs under gross, since the fuel pickups are usually at the bottom of the tank and the granny gas (I would imagine) floats on top.

Do these planes have to have special fuel pickups on the top of the tanks to access the granny gas? One would imagine that a momentary air pocket would let all the granny gas go to the tops of the fuel tanks and stay there, since it doesn't weigh anything. Even a Christen aerobatic fuel pickup would be unable to reach the granny gas once positive g was re-established.

Or does the granny gas have some form of sentience, being consciously aware of which amount makes the plane heavier than gross? And then does it use this self-awareness to decide when to perform alchemy on itself so it can become the normal ~7lbs/gallon we are all used to seeing?

[Cat Driver]

7lbs/gallon

7.2 lbs. a gallon.

1000 pounds = 142.85 Gallons.

142.85 gallons at 7.2 lbs per gallon will weigh 1028.52 pounds....

[iflyforpie]

Aviation Kerosene
CAN/CGSB-3-23
(JET-A, JET-A1)

-40C 7.32 LBS/US GAL

-20C 7.19 LBS/US GAL

0C 7.09 LBS/US GAL

15C 7.00 LBS/US GAL

30C 6.91 LBS/US GAL

I'm glad I'm not anywhere where it's -20C. I'll put a '~' in there.

[Cannonballer]

[quote="Cat Driver"]Cannonballer when one makes light of a serious issue one runs the risk of others thinking you are being serious......quote]

Point taken Cat.

I guess that although i agree with most of the points made in this thread I feel that it is taken to the extreme in some cases too. That is why i felt the need to lighten things up a bit.

Some comments in this thread sound to me as though people are running thousands of pounds overweight due to extra fuel. When most ppl who do throw on a bit of extra fuel on are maybe adding an extra 30 - 45 mins of extra fuel. When running long legs VFR having that extra few mins of fuel on a crappy day makes a difference sometimes.

I know it is breaking the law and there is no "Grey" area when it comes down to this. I am not a cowboy or a hot shot and fly as safly as i possible can all the time. As far as I am concerned when i do chose to use it that fuel weight comes off the top and affects my take off weight and my gross for only the first 30 mins of flight ... maybe. My landing weights are always within limits.

If i get caught on the ramp i will pay the piper. But until then when i feel that i would like to have a little bit of insurance available then i am going to take it and use it. Like most of us I flying in remote areas and suitable places to land are rarely close by. There have been a few times where i am glad i had it due to mishaps on runways and having to hold while planes have been towed off runways. And on bad weather days it has been nice to beable to divert and wait out the weather and complete my flight safely without worrying running out of go juice.

Anyway that is my take on this issue. You guys can cut me up all you want now.

C

[Just another canuck]

If i get caught on the ramp i will pay the piper.

What about the guy who gets "caught" in the airplane during a structural failure due to thousands of hours of flying overweight?

[Cannonballer]

Once again .... the extreme cases. What are the stats on structural failures anyway? When was the last time that something like that was documented? Id like to review the stats before i change my mind.

Besides ... if ferry permits are issued to aircraft that increase take off weight by 10% of gross weight and then fly thousands of miles my 30 mins of fuel wont be an issue!

[Cat Driver]

There can be no doubt that carrying extra fuel when you feel you may need it is good airmanship.

There is also no doubt that doing it legally is also to your advantage.

How many training organizations will teach you to load an airplane to its maximum certified weight and then add fuel for safety reasons?

Suppose you have an accident on take off and there are injuries or deaths, the investigation shows the airplane was over gross weight.

You are now in a real mess, will your employer stand beside you and defend you because you were a real money maker for them?

[iflyforpie]

If i get caught on the ramp i will pay the piper.

What about the guy who gets "caught" in the airplane during a structural failure due to thousands of hours of flying overweight?

If ferry permits are issued to aircraft up to 10% of gross weight and then fly thousands of miles my 30 mins of fuel wont be an issue!

Except that it is illegal.

This isn't about what the plane is capable of. We all know that it can lift more.



I wish I could remember the figures but this plane had a pretty funny story.



It was a one off Convair 580 conversion. As a result, there were quite a few differences from the standard machines. It had tight Electra-style nacelles rather than the very roomy standard ones. Also, many of the systems and parts were different as well; making parts swapping and maintenance a headache.

But they kept this aircraft flying because it was the fastest and could haul the most--at least according to the W&B done by BLP and JR many years back. Well, then came the time to re-do the weight and balance and it was found to require a very large revision. The plane never flew again.



Pretty much everything in aviation has a fudge-factor. But these are to get us out of trouble and keep us safe (kind of like the safe service this plane gave in-spite of a maintenance error). The plane might be strong enough to carry the extra weight in calm skies and smooth landings, but we all know that doesn't happen every day. The plane might be powerful enough to fly with the extra weight, but engine failures happen. Could you imagine being the Captain of good-ol' 091 above and deciding you needed some granny gas to be safe--WHEN YOU ARE ALREADY WELL OVER GROSS?

Ferry permits CYA and are done with essential crew only. Otherwise you are invalidating the C of A. Heck, I worked on a 727 that came in from a two engine ferry flight--maybe to save fuel they should be operated with two engine all the time.

[Cannonballer]

Cat, iflyforpie ... I concede ... good points. I wish i could say that i was being a devils advocate but such is not the case. Well done gentlemen. Just another canuck... take notes this is how you get your point accross in a disscussion and validate your argument.

C

[Cat Driver]

Cat, iflyforpie ... I concede ... good points. I wish i could say that i was being a devils advocate but such is not the case. Well done gentlemen. Just another canuck... take notes this is how you get your point accross in a disscussion and validate your argument.

Thanks cannonballer, that is how these discussions should go.

God knows this industry is difficult enough without us having to make it harder on ourselves.

[Just another canuck]

Just another canuck... take notes this is how you get your point accross in a disscussion and validate your argument.

Well, thanks tips. but don't try to call me out because you got caught trying to defend a stupid and illegal action.
I don't need advice coming from a guy who says this:

anyway you guys can discuss this all you want but i know for a fact that "Granny Gas" weighs zero lbs!!!!

Say it was a joke all you want, but we all know it wasn't.

Truth is, my next point was going to be the one Cat made about having an accident after take-off... it's the same thing as the guys who dump flap that isn't allowed for take off... what happens if you crash? You're screwed. I thought I'd let you think about it for awhile first. And then, instead of thinking about it, you say this:

if ferry permits are issued to aircraft that increase take off weight by 10% of gross weight and then fly thousands of miles my 30 mins of fuel wont be an issue!

which, quite frankly, is another thoughtless remark. These airplanes perform a take-off and fly for extended periods... they're not getting banged around at low level... they're not doing 10 legs a day like you probably are... there are also pre- and post- ferry inspections that are carried out. So yeah, your 30 minutes, day in, day out, does hurt it.

You really should have read the thread and thought about trying to defend an ILLEGAL action before doing so. At least you conceded though, so that's good... although I'm quite sure you'll still go back to work and add your "granny gas" again and again... remind me how much it weighs again???