Interview with Ornge

[AuxBatOn]

Don't make me wrong, BONDS ARE WRONG, and are a shame for aviation, I understand that.

Bonds are okay, as long as you don't have to pay money up front. I'm "bonded" for 7 years, am I an idiot and a shame?

[Mustang06]

Don't make me wrong, BONDS ARE WRONG, and are a shame for aviation, I understand that.

Bonds are okay, as long as you don't have to pay money up front. I'm "bonded" for 7 years, am I an idiot and a shame?

no I don't think so, I wouldn't mind to sign a 7 years bond no money upfront with Air Transat, I guess its depends, it should be seen case by case.
What I don't like are the terms and conditions included in some contracts in which the company has nothing to loose and everything to win, those bonds agreements that in case they decide to ''terminate'" your employment then you owe them the money or if you fail the ppc ride etc.
Every training bond like any agreement must be a win to win contract, both parts should share some risk, it should not be the pilot who always loose, you see may point?

[AuxBatOn]

no I don't think so, I wouldn't mind to sign a 7 years bond no money upfront with Air Transat, I guess its depends, it should be seen case by case.
What I don't like are the terms and conditions included in some contracts in which the company has nothing to loose and everything to win, those bonds agreements that in case they decide to ''terminate'" your employment then you owe them the money or if you fail the ppc ride etc.
Every training bond like any agreement must be a win to win contract, both parts should share some risk, it should not be the pilot who always loose, you see may point?

That's the point. Most bonds are fair. Some aren't, and most of these that aren't, you have to pay cash up front.

A bond is just a defence mechanism developed by the companies over the years seing their pilots jump ship shortly after being qualified.

[Donald]

Most bonds are fair.

Fair? For who? The employer maybe. Can you provide examples of companies with "fair" bonds?

I say again, if you must sign a bond, make sure to include ALL of your job details and salary expectations within.

There is no way you should be handcuffed, even if you have all intentions of staying the prescribed term.

[AuxBatOn]

Most bonds are fair.

Fair? For who? The employer maybe. Can you provide examples of companies with "fair" bonds?

I say again, if you must sign a bond, make sure to include ALL of your job details and salary expectations within.

There is no way you should be handcuffed, even if you have all intentions of staying the prescribed term.

Handcuffed in which way? In the way that if you leave you owe money? I'm sorry, if you decide on your own to leave before the prescribed period you should pay. Period.

Most bond I have heard or seen were, IMO, fair. You quit on your own, you pay. They kick you out, you don't.

Oh, my 7 year "bond" I can't even leave during these 7 years, talk about handcuffed

[Donald]

What I mean by handcuffed, is for example if the employer decides to change your conditions of employment (change your base, make you work the ramp for 50% of the time opposed to flying, change your schedule to all weekends, etc etc) you are handcuffed because the bond is protecting the employer alone.

Bonds are for companies that can't keep someone longer than 6 months or a year. Yes I agree there are some less than ethical employees out there, but there are far more unethical companies.

An employment contract protecting both parties, now that would be something to consider.

[iflyforpie]

Don't make me wrong, BONDS ARE WRONG, and are a shame for aviation, I understand that.

Bonds are okay, as long as you don't have to pay money up front. I'm "bonded" for 7 years, am I an idiot and a shame?

First off, no, you are not an idiot and a shame.

But there is a critical difference between your bond and the bond that most aviation companies require.

If you wash out of flying, the Forces are still committed to you for the remainder of the seven years. You are still an officer and still receive a salary even though you aren't flying.

If we blow a PPC, we are sent packing with no pay, an invalidated IFR rating, and a large debt outstanding on the bond. Now we have to pay for an IFR renewal and sign another bond to get back to square one. A co-worker of mine just experienced this.

Also, with us civilian low timers dealing with companies who may do layoffs or go belly up; there is strong pressure to move as soon as possible to companies with better pay, working conditions, and stability. That either means being in the right place at the right time or continuously looking for other jobs.

There are negative aspects of being 'bonded' seven years with the Forces too. You are an officer first, pilot second, and they tell you where to go and what to do. Overseas deployments and wars are hardships and occupational risks that can change as well.

[Capt_sky]

Anybody has some info about the actual interviews? Please PM me I would really appreciate!

[Donald]

To AuxBat and others who defend bonds....

Imagine you accept a job and sign the (ORNGE) bond, then encounter this situation (taken from another thread):

They indicate that the contracted amount of days off is often not given as the company is frequently short of pilots due to the revolving door. The advertised rotation between Prince Albert and Stony Rapids is often ignored and pilots can find they spend far more time than they were led to believe in Stony Rapids. Apparently no additional compensation is given for the extra work days in lieu of paid days off or for the additional time at Stony Rapids. It is rumoured that some pilots who have left have not been paid all that was due to them.

Without having written the employment conditions into the bond, do you think it's fair that the pilot is now HANDCUFFED to the company? Is it fair for the pilot to now have to pay the company for their training?

[iwant2flyifr]

Was there ever any mention of a training bond during the interviews?????

[ipilot54]

I guess my only comment would be: they have a multi million dollar “Patient Simulator” that they pull around the province for their medic training…you know…the ones who make 6 figure incomes. They do NOT sign bond or have to put $$$ up front. They would not stand for it.

Think about that while you fly them around and listen to their whinning.

[Eleveniron]

I guess my only comment would be: they have a multi million dollar “Patient Simulator” that they pull around the province for their medic training…you know…the ones who make 6 figure incomes. They do NOT sign bond or have to put $$$ up front. They would not stand for it.

Think about that while you fly them around and listen to their whinning.

Very true. But any idea what their typical turn over time is on medics? From what I have heard the medics don't tend to leave once they're in. I would think a medic's position in an operation like Ornge is the golden job. Where the pilot positions are more time-building for the next job.

[Cat Driver]

Where the pilot positions are more time-building for the next job.

Interesting.

At what point do pilots quit changing jobs because they have done enough time building?

[Eleveniron]

Where the pilot positions are more time-building for the next job.

Interesting.

At what point do pilots quit changing jobs because they have done enough time building?

Well, considering Ornge is a fleet of SETP...its a natural transition. Average is probably two years for most. Good PIC, turbine, glass time. Not many are going to stay flying medivac for much longer. But they will leave with good solid time. I'm not saying it's wrong to leave in two to three years...I'm saying it's expected.

[Cat Driver]

Not many are going to stay flying medivac for much longer. But they will leave with good solid time. I'm not saying it's wrong to leave in two to three years...I'm saying it's expected.

Why would a pilot leave a good job if the job gave them a comfortable living including a known schedule of work allowing a normal home life just to fly another type of airplane?

As I understand Ornge it is a government financed operation which should be one of the most secure jobs with all the perks one could hope to have....compared to a lot of private sector jobs.

[Eleveniron]

Not many are going to stay flying medivac for much longer. But they will leave with good solid time. I'm not saying it's wrong to leave in two to three years...I'm saying it's expected.

Why would a pilot leave a good job if the job gave them a comfortable living including a known schedule of work allowing a normal home life just to fly another type of airplane?

As I understand Ornge it is a government financed operation which should be one of the most secure jobs with all the perks one could hope to have....compared to a lot of private sector jobs.

I hope that's the case, Cat. And if it is the case...kinda softens the blow of a bond when a guy knows he's got good, long term opportunity with more security than the private sector...just as you said. So in a sense that contradicts what we've been sayin about Ornge and bonds. Maybe that 10K the guys may be paying is more of an insurance policy. I don't know, we can spin this any way we want...I'm just talking history again. The PC-12 is typically not a life long career...it's a step up when you're young or a comfortable living (corporate, that is) for the last few years before retirement.

[Cat Driver]

I hope that's the case, Cat. And if it is the case...kinda softens the blow of a bond when a guy knows he's got good, long term opportunity with more security than the private sector..

If that were the case there would be no need for a bond.

.. The PC-12 is typically not a life long career...it's a step up when you're young or a comfortable living (corporate, that is) for the last few years before retirement.

Chasing airplanes for their perceived looks or performance is worse than chasing women for those attributes.....the new soon wears off and you have to chase another one.

[Eleveniron]

Chasing airplanes for their perceived looks or performance is worse than chasing women for those attributes.....the new soon wears off and you have to chase another one.

But in the end airplanes will cost you a lot less money

[Cat Driver]

But in the end airplanes will cost you a lot less money

True and they don't give you the clap....

[Eleveniron]

But in the end airplanes will cost you a lot less money

True and they don't give you the clap....

Maybe a little hot section distress...but no clap!

[Mick Dundee]

Hi folks

You can call me an ignorant Aussie if you like. But what exactly do you mean when you talk about a bond?

Here in Australia being bonded means that if you quit your job within a set time (say 2 years) you are required to pay a percentage of your bond to the employer. There is no up front payment required, and you only have to pay the bond if you quit within that bond period.

Is this the same thing that you are talking about?

[Just another canuck]

Hi folks

You can call me an ignorant Aussie if you like. But what exactly do you mean when you talk about a bond?

Here in Australia being bonded means that if you quit your job within a set time (say 2 years) you are required to pay a percentage of your bond to the employer. There is no up front payment required, and you only have to pay the bond if you quit within that bond period.

Is this the same thing that you are talking about?

What you're talking about we usually refer to as a promissory note... if you leave before said contract is up, you pay the company said amount of dollars. Let's pretend it's 12,000 dollars for a year for convenience. If it's pro-rated and you quite after 6 months, then you pay 6,000 dollars. If it's not pro-rated, it doesn't matter when you quit, you pay the whole 12,000.

The bond Ornge and a few other companies in Canada now have is you pay the company the money prior to employment so if you skip out on the job, they have your money. Or if they fire you... or if your smile isn't right and you're just not gonna work out.

[Mick Dundee]

I agree with you guys then. Paying money for a job is ridiculous.

[Lost Lake]

Hey Cat you hit the nail on the head. It seems that everyone who flies for a 703 /704 operator is only time building before they can walk through YVR or YYZ pulling their flight and overnight bags behind them. Paying union dues, doing 6 or 12 hr of total tedium in a cockpit with someone they may not like or get along with. Hey I'm a BIG time pilot now. Wear a jacket and a tie. Everytime I pass through a large terminal, the most miserable looking people seem to be the flight crew. But hey, they're making the big bucks, sitting in what is basically a simulator, pushing buttons and watch the plane land itself. Boy that's real flying!! No stupid stick and rudder for these boys. Piss on flying a $4 million PC12 for $80K a year when you can be a $40K f/o at jazz for 8 years. I think some of these kids need a reality check. Unfortunately Cat, by the time they realize they hate their job because it's not really flying, it may be too late.

Now you know why the smaller carriers want bonds. Because most of the young pilots working there think they're James Bonds.

[Cat Driver]

Now you know why the smaller carriers want bonds. Because most of the young pilots working there think they're James Bonds

Yeh, pilots as a group are interesting they live in a land of make believe and dreams of self grandeur.

The reality can be seen dragging cloned bags on wheels through the terminals of airports all over the world like zombies looking neither right nor left...just straight ahead waiting for the probe from a wand monkey to start them off on their next flight.