Granny Gas

[Cannonballer]

Zero!!!

I wasnt calling you out. Just stating that they made better points.

Cheers,

C

[Just another canuck]

Zero!!!

I wasnt calling you out. Just stating that they made better points.

Cheers,

C

Good enough.

Cheers.

JAC

[Apache64_]

I guess it depends on the plane you fly. If i took 30-45 min of granny gas on one model of plane I fly, that would equate to 750-900 lbs of fuel (altitude dependent) So it can add up pretty damn fast. I would rather exceed a landing weight than a take off weight, too much pucker factor when the engine quits on take off for me. An excessive landing weight worst case you fold up the gear, but more than likely an inspection. If you need the gas, take it by all means, for your own, make sure its on the flight plan. Really, when you pay the piper after your dead, the company sure isnt going to back you up and say, oh sure we told him he to take the extra gas.....the plane can handle it.

[square]

it's the same thing as the guys who dump flap that isn't allowed for take off...

What's this?

[Just another canuck]

it's the same thing as the guys who dump flap that isn't allowed for take off...

What's this?

Using unauthorized flap settings for take off. I'll admit I had to a couple times in Papua, otherwise I may have not made it out.

But when you use a greater than allowed flap setting for take off just to get off the runway quicker is what I was talking about. What happens if you lose an engine and go off the end? All insurance is void... and I'm not sure what would happen to you, but you probably wouldn't be flying for awhile, if ever and although the company allows it, they won't be backing you when you ball it up.

I could see dumping flap in the event of an emergency... but when you do it just because the runway is rough and want to get off earlier, I don't believe in that and if you're consistently doing it because the runways are too short, then you shouldn't be there in the first place.

[Cat Driver]

HHHmmmmm using more flap than is in the AOM on take off.. .

How about a glassy water take off in a fully loaded Cessna 180/185/206?

Is it better to use 20 degrees of flap to break the water surface tension or is it better to remain at full power waiting for that extra few knots of speed hoping the thing will break free?

[Just another canuck]

Is it better to use 20 degrees of flap to break the water surface tension or is it better to remain at full power waiting for that extra few knots of speed hoping the thing will break free?

What does the AOM say? I think if it's a matter of safety, then use the extra flap... like if the trees are coming up real fast. If you have miles of water ahead of you, then I guess you can use the extra flap as well. If something does go wrong, you just land back on the water. I have no experience in this really, so I'm just speculating...

But with wheels, the runway ends and if you ball it up off the end and the flaps are at a setting that AOM says is a no-no, well you're screwed, aren't you? Always cover your ass.

I'm curious what others think... is this one of those things that are "okay"?

[Cannonballer]

How about a glassy water take off in a fully loaded Cessna 180/185/206?

Is it better to use 20 degrees of flap to break the water surface tension or is it better to remain at full power waiting for that extra few knots of speed hoping the thing will break free?

Or a Caravan on rough seas for that matter. Sometimes flying a little earlier with some help from the flaps is easier on the aircraft than driving through the waves.

[SmokinJoe]

Well I guess it all goes back to being legal right? If it's that hard to get off the water then maybe they should head back to the dock and remove some weight instead of using an unaproved flap setting, gotta be legal right?

[Cat Driver]

I knew this would get some interesting comments.

So how about producing some evidence that using flaps to get out of the water rather than beating the shit out of it has ever been an unsafe action?

What is your opinion on X/wind limits?

[Just another canuck]

It seems on floats, it's not necessarily unsafe... although it still illegal. What about on wheels? Can we agree if you have to use more flaps than are "allowed", you're doing something wrong? Or is it okay to dump flaps to get off a rough runway? In Papua, we would go full power with T/O flaps, then at the end of the runway, dump full flaps to get airborne... not all the time. Sometimes we would raise the flaps in the flare as well.

It comes down to the "what if"... What if you go in the tulips on T/O while having an unapproved flap setting?

[iflyforpie]

I

It comes down to the "what if"... What if you go in the tulips on T/O while having an unapproved flap setting?

You put the flap lever into the takeoff position. Just like putting the gear lever down after you've done a gear-up!

At least 'granny gas' solves itself. It will either burn up or spill in the ensuing crash.

[Cat Driver]

It seems on floats, it's not necessarily unsafe... although it still illegal.

Interesting comment.

Bush pilots have been using flaps to get off the water or rough / soft ground ever since they figured out it works.

Have you ever heard of one being charged and convicted of " illegal " use of flaps?

I have heard of pilots turning airplanes into tree cutters by not using take off flap but can't recall anyone ever wrecking an airplane by using flaps to break the surface.

Anyone here ever heard of that?

[beaverbob]

Always use a flap setting that will get you off the water the shortest distance. It is difficult to see low lying obstacles in the water a mile ahead. As soon as you are airborne and at safe speed, retract the flaps to best angle of climb position, rate of climb or whatever is the appropriate setting for the conditions. A C185 or C206 do quite well with 20 degrees. I don't know how using more than that would be considered illegal. I think the Cessna handbook even allows for options per the conditions.
Bob

[Cat Driver]

Bob, you and I and any bush pilot who has ever worked in the industry knows that.

However every once in a while this amazing conversation comes up and there will be a group who are paranoid about using good airmanship if they think it somehow is in violation of some rule I have never ever read about this subject.

For some reason they think it is better to beat the living shit out of the airplane rather than use a flap setting that will get you airborne and then accelerate to the recommended climb airspeed for the situation ahead of you as you bring the flaps up.

[Just another canuck]

Well, I was the one who originally brought it up... I'll explain where it stems from. The 228 AOM specifically says Flaps 2 are not allowed for take-off. So, why use it if you don't have to? What happens if you lose an engine and can't climb out? and then you go off the end? All insurance would be void.

As well, the Caravan, I believe, says Flaps 20 only for take off. Now, I was in a third world country where rules didn't seem to matter anyway, so I basically did what I wanted. But what about here? What if you have full flap set and you ball it up off the end of the runway?

Like I said, quite often, I would roll the distance of the runway and dump full flap just to get in ground effect, then retract soon thereafter. I agree that sometimes there are situations where this kind of thing should or must be done, but really, it's just like the granny gas thing... if you need a non-authorized flap setting to get off the water or runway, then maybe there's something wrong. Although I'm not an experienced float driver, I think it is a slightly different situation... water conditions, length of available water, etc...

So, yes, Cat and bb, I do try to practice good airmanship and not beat up an airplane... I understand what you both are saying. But what about the legality of it? I believe what you always say Cat, is, "Is the company gonna back you when you are standing there with a bent airplane?"

Thoughts??

Edit - one more thing... you might actually say that it is safer to break the law than to follow the rules in this case??? Maybe. Get off the water soon... less likely to hit a dead head or drift wood. Get off the runway soon... less likely to have a gear failure or go off the end???

More thoughts???

[Cat Driver]

So, yes, Cat and bb, I do try to practice good airmanship and not beat up an airplane... I understand what you both are saying. But what about the legality of it? I believe what you always say Cat, is, "Is the company gonna back you when you are standing there with a bent airplane?"

Thoughts??

My thoughts are when faced with a situation where the use of flaps will get the airplane off the surface...especially glassy water .....then the use of flaps to get off the water, that is using good airmanship.

If the engine were to quit before you reconfigured to the recommended flap setting and you hit the shoreline you made a bad decision before you started the take off....not sufficient room for a safe take off.

Anyhow as I said I have never ever heard of anyone smashing up a float plane by using flaps to break water.

[raven54]

"Illegal is a sick bird, if it's not safe, don't do it"

[Just another canuck]

"Illegal is a sick bird, if it's not safe, don't do it"

Absolutely...

I'm just trying to stir the pot and create some discussion.

[MUSKEG]

In industry slang when one "dumps" flap does that not mean to retract? The term we used to extend flap was to "pull flap". Just had me confused there for a bit.

[bezerker]

So is it ok to do some illegal stuff as long as it is good airmanship?

[Just another canuck]

In industry slang when one "dumps" flap does that not mean to retract? The term we used to extend flap was to "pull flap". Just had me confused there for a bit.

Sorry, yeah... when I said dump flap, I meant extend.

So is it ok to do some illegal stuff as long as it is good airmanship?

And this is the conversation I was trying to spark bezerker... it seems OK on floats for some guys so far, then again, I don't drive floats so I'm not even sure if the same rules apply... maybe there are different supplements for floats planes???

Granny gas is unsafe... well, sort of, depending... but unauthorized flap settings are not unsafe. Both are illegal though, so why should it matter whether one is safe or not?

[flyinthebug]

Im still waiting for someone to show me a C180/185/206 POH that says its "illegal" to use flaps on aircraft when equipped with floats? I cant find it?. Not a DHC2/3 either? What aircraft on floats is illegal to use flaps on take off? Does the C208 limitations transfer to floats as well as wheels? I am interested to hear/read. Good discussion.

[Cat Driver]

So is it ok to do some illegal stuff as long as it is good airmanship?

Using 20 degrees of flap to break water surface tension on glassy water in a Cessna 180/185/ 206 is illegal bezerker?

Care to provide a regulation and the wording of the charges for using that technique to get the airplane off the water, so all the bush pilots here can read it?

il⋅le⋅gal
   /ɪˈligəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-lee-guhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1. forbidden by law or statute.
2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it

Like I said I have never ever heard of such a charge and I have been flying floats since 1954.

[Just another canuck]

So is it ok to do some illegal stuff as long as it is good airmanship?

Using 20 degrees of flap to break water surface tension on glassy water in a Cessna 180/185/ 206 is illegal bezerker?

Care to provide a regulation and the wording of the charges for using that technique to get the airplane off the water, so all the bush pilots here can read it?

Like I said I have never ever heard of such a charge and I have been flying floats since 1954.

OK, Cat, what about the 208... or the 228 on land? We all agree it's a safe action... probably safer than the approved setting... but still illegal. The AOM does not approve it.

Just to be clear, I am not 100% on the 208... but probably 99.9%. The 228 I am sure. Maybe there are different laws or supplements for float planes... I really don't know.

What about you twotter guys? Is there a max. flap setting for takeoff and is it ever exceeded in normal circumstances?