JAA

[eterepekio]

I was looking at the requirements for licences and training in Europe and it makes us look like kids compared to them. The equipment, theory, medical requirements, knowledge, training is so much of higher standard. Maybe if TC wouldn't scratch their balls all day with useless admin crap, they could improve flight training in this country which is suffering

Just a thought

[Tim]

i've had the unfortunate experience of sharing an airport with JAA students/instructors.

my general impression (which was shared by the majority of the candian instructors, as well as the ATC guys) is that they are dicks. they think learning more book stuff makes you a better pilot. then think spending $50 000 on a 30 hr type rating course makes you supremly qualified to operate a jet. they walked around looking down their noses at the rest of the world. 'aviation excellence' was their companies motto...never saw it. what i did see if frequent displays of poor airmanship and decision making. but, canada was created for them to flight train in i suppose.

i was eccstatic the day they pulled out.

of course there are exceptions to the above, but not much based on those i met.

[hairdo]

All looks and no substance. I've had two ex-JAA students and I really didn't see any difference in their skill/knowledge level compared to Canadian pilots.

[Cat Driver]

Maybe if TC wouldn't scratch their balls all day

How do you scratch something you don't have?

[RVR6000]

[quote="Tim"]

i was eccstatic the day they pulled out.
[quote]

What annoying is seeing these guys fly Canadian registered 705 aircrafts courtesy of Skyservice and Canjet.

[MichaelP]

Certainly the JAA PPL is a poorer standard than the original CAA PPL in the UK. We've had PPLs have to get their SPPs and do further training before being given a Canadian PPL.

But I think the Canadian CPL is perhaps too low a standard.
The requirement for 80 hours of groundschool redresses this somewhat if that time is used properly.
Doing a three day seminar twice is not ideal...

There is a lot to learn as every experienced pilot knows. We all realise as we gain more and more experience how little we knew.
Professional qualifications such as degrees require a far higher level of learning than most people will ever need for their professions, but degrees generally demand higher salaries.
It will not hurt to know more background subject material than is necessary to be a simple aeroplane machine operator.

Having the 'road vehicle' driver mentality of knowing only enough is perhaps part of the reason commercial flying in Canada is little more than slave labour in most instances.
(I was contemplating this on the bus yesterday, the bus driver operator earns a little more than most of us and has forty regular hours a week or less to work).

The JAA CPL holder is generally held in higher regard in his/her own country and the pay is higher.

Rather than complaining about snooty nosed JAA pilots on here, perhaps we should all try to attain a higher standard ourselves.

[sky_flyer]

Certainly the JAA PPL is a poorer standard than the original CAA PPL in the UK. We've had PPLs have to get their SPPs and do further training before being given a Canadian PPL.

But I think the Canadian CPL is perhaps too low a standard.
The requirement for 80 hours of groundschool redresses this somewhat if that time is used properly.
Doing a three day seminar twice is not ideal...

There is a lot to learn as every experienced pilot knows. We all realise as we gain more and more experience how little we knew.
Professional qualifications such as degrees require a far higher level of learning than most people will ever need for their professions, but degrees generally demand higher salaries.
It will not hurt to know more background subject material than is necessary to be a simple aeroplane machine operator.

Having the 'road vehicle' driver mentality of knowing only enough is perhaps part of the reason commercial flying in Canada is little more than slave labour in most instances.
(I was contemplating this on the bus yesterday, the bus driver operator earns a little more than most of us and has forty regular hours a week or less to work).

The JAA CPL holder is generally held in higher regard in his/her own country and the pay is higher.

Rather than complaining about snooty nosed JAA pilots on here, perhaps we should all try to attain a higher standard ourselves.

I completely agree with you I think that we should all strive to a higher standard
Personally I think that thins like MCC and teaching SOPs should be subjects before the cpl
you can also add a more indepth study of TCAS, RADAR
or am I the only one who didnt get much info on this during my trainning?

[E-Flyer]

You're right, and our medicals should be as strict as well so that there are no surprises and uncertainties of passing airline medicals one day.

[767]

perhaps we should all try to attain a higher standard ourselves.

How?

[sky_flyer]

perhaps we should all try to attain a higher standard ourselves.

How?

I sugest that we make our training on par with JAA

I think that we could start by redesigning our ground school especially for the commercial i think it should include more then just the extreme minimum required for the passing of the CPAER
I would like to see what the ground school material looks like for the JAA CPL if anyone has info i would love to see it including any PDF or POWERPOINTS please pm me

also if anyone has done the conversion please pm me as i would have many questions

[I Я Instructor]

Keep it in perspective. JAA kids get to sit right seat in jets, Canadian CPL's get to sit right seat in a Navajo. There are those who learn by reading, others learn by doing. Who's to say which way is better than the other?

This subject has been beat to death numerous times but I stress again; do you honestly need to know the science behind refraction of light at a certain angle during a certain time of the day?

... besides, wouldn't you rather sit beside a guy who actually has some interesting stories to tell when you're in the air for 12 hours straight?

[hairdo]

perhaps we should all try to attain a higher standard ourselves.

How?

I sugest that we make our training on par with JAA

I think that we could start by redesigning our ground school especially for the commercial i think it should include more then just the extreme minimum required for the passing of the CPAER
I would like to see what the ground school material looks like for the JAA CPL if anyone has info i would love to see it including any PDF or POWERPOINTS please pm me

also if anyone has done the conversion please pm me as i would have many questions

Okay, so you say we should make our groundschool to be on par with that of the JAA, but then you state that you would like to see what their groundschool material looks like. If you are going to make statements about something, do some research first please. It will at least give your arguments some credibility. I have to agree with I R Instructor, because there is a point to which more groundschool isn't going to make you a better pilot. I really don't care about the science behind the refraction of light at a certain angle, because I have no use for it in my day to day flying. If that groundschool gives me something that I can use in my day to day flying, put it in, because I want to know about it.

[cplpilot]

i am doing it trough NAC in Naples... long distance...

[sky_flyer]

Keep it in perspective. JAA kids get to sit right seat in jets, Canadian CPL's get to sit right seat in a Navajo. There are those who learn by reading, others learn by doing. Who's to say which way is better than the other?

This subject has been beat to death numerous times but I stress again; do you honestly need to know the science behind refraction of light at a certain angle during a certain time of the day?

... besides, wouldn't you rather sit beside a guy who actually has some interesting stories to tell when you're in the air for 12 hours straight?

well I think things like multi crew, TCAS weather radar, SOPs and alike should be better covered in our ground schools and I think these are things that are useful to pilots on a daily basis....

[hairdo]

well I think things like multi crew, TCAS weather radar, SOPs and alike should be better covered in our ground schools and I think these are things that are useful to pilots on a daily basis....

Agreed. But there is also a lot of BS in the JAA programs as well. As far as their vaunted ATPL, I'm not all that impressed. Yes they sit through six months of groundschool, but in the end, how the most of the ones who pass with excellent marks are not those who know the material, but those who use the "question banks." There are several programs in the UK that offer students these question banks, which are the exact questions from their exams, and they sit the student down in front of them day after day until the memorize the question and answer. Does that teach them the material. My opinion: no. Does that make them pass. Yes. Does that give them a job in the right seat of a larger aircraft than in Canada? Yes. I see the exact same thing with the Chinese students who train in Canada and get their fATPL here as well and then go back to China to fly Boeings and Airbus. So it seems it's more of a demand situation than a quality situation (not saying that Canadian licenses are perfect... they're not).

Like I said before, anything that is useful on a daily basis to pilots should be taught, so I agree with training about multi crew, TCAS, Wx RADAR, SOPs, etc. But there are some programs in Canada that do cover this or at least some of this material, as it has been found to be useful. And again, if it is BS groundschool that really doesn't help me on a day to day basis, then I don't believe that it is necessary.

[shamrock104]

I have had a couple of friends who have gone throught the groundschool for the frozen ATPL and they all say the same thing, apparently a lot of material that is just not relevent and once learned is soon forgotton. The old system appeared to be a lot better as it was experience based. Many Europeans are of the opinion that their system is the best as they have been spoon fed this information early on. I believe that a pilot leaving Canada to go fly in Europe after a couple of years would be more well rounded because its an entirely different environment.