Did you ever sign a training bond or buy a PPC?

[Cap'n P8]

Well, I don't miss living there mostly because it made my wife miserable, but I do miss the friends I made there (except for the one who's living in my basement until his family moves from YXL). I also miss the flying (DHC3T on amphibs and skis was by far the coolest machine I have ever flown, although I could have done without the pop and chip runs). If it wasn't for the great lifestyle this job provides me, and the fact it is home for both me and my wife, I would gladly still be flying in the bush.

[frontside_air]

i've always been able to resist chiming in on this tired, old dialogue in the past but i have to get this off my chest. those of you who are all all f*cked up over someone else "buying a job" are probably the same people who are supporting the north american automakers' bailout since the world obviously owes you something simply because you wake up every morning.

all of us pilots are just bluecollar joes who were too dumb to get real educations/jobs and wanted to be peterpan for the rest of our lives (fly around and never grow up). you got into this career because you have a passion for the work?...well guess what, a couple of thousand other people had the same idea and there are only so many jobs to go around. just like any other occupation that people get into out of some love for the work (actors/writers/artists/photographers/chefs) the working conditions probably suck and the financial rewards are enjoyed by a very small portion of the industry.

people around this forum like to purport to call themselves "professionals", well how about doing eachother a little professional curteousy and giving eachother the benefit of the doubt in that: if a person has decided to sign a bond, they have made an informed and calculated decision to do. of course signing a bond(/paying for a ppc/etc) sucks and any individual would rather not have to given the option. decision making is what we get paid to do so why the f*ck would someone sign a bond unless that job offered them better quality of life in some other way(more time with family, better working conditions, etc). sorry, but nobody is going to give up better QOL just to stay true to some dim-witted, ersatz pseudoethic of "never buying a job" just because some other people have been lucky enough to not have to sign a bond and get to where they want to be. we're talking about people's lives here not buying organic veggies or using paper bags, do you really think you're going to change someone's mind about taking a job by sh!tting on eachother on an internet forum? if you truly believe in all the anti-bond rhetoric you all so eloquently have been preaching here then your efforts would be better suited to putting pressure on the companies that employ these practices rather than ostracizing your peers. if we, as a collective labor body, could ever mobilize in this fashion we would also probably put every company with tight margins out of business (due to the same reason bonds came about in the first place: greed/human nature) and make the situation worse for us all.

all you altruistic, self-righteous, anti-bond puritans must be hypoxic given how high your horses are since you've been lucky enough to make it up the snakes and ladders boardgame of aviation without having to sign a bond and your way is the only right way. maybe you should take a couple breaths of the oxygen of reality since this industry(and the world) is a dark and scary place with sharp edges where the people who get ahead aren't the most deserving or most talented. it's wonderful that you have to moral fortitude to "not sign a bond", if it means that much to you then don't do it and your actions will have spoken louder than your typed words. an interesting exercise would be to sign a bond, then not screw the company out of the training cost before you leave and maybe that will do more to change their minds than screaming bloody murder most foul at your fellow pilots.

people who buy ppc's, fly for free, bust duty days/minimums, etc get ahead just the same as investment bankers who short on a down-tick get ahead (at the expense of the business whose ticker is involved and ultimate erosion of the market). this is the face of human nature. if you don't accept the fact that professional success in this business is a crapshoot then you're going to have a hell of a time at the airlines where you'll be at the mercy of the seniority system and your life (and that of your family) is determined literally by a number you drew out of a hat ("sorry hun, we have to sell the house, pull the kids out of school and you'll have to find a new job because i can't hold a base in X since i pulled a 25 instead of an 8 during the draw", etc).


there are a billion things that suck about this business: people buy jobs, bust minimums, our salaries always roller-coaster even when our careers are advancing, duty days are long, it's hard to committ to a magazine subscription let alone another person without being selfish, there is no set schedule, the starting salary at airlines are terrible, etc, etc. if you can't stomach all of this then you should do your blood pressure a favor and quit and get out of the way of someone who wants to succeed in spite of this. it's noble to try and change things for the better but stop pointing fingers at your peers for being complicit with a system that you don't agree with unless you are willing to shoulder some blame for perpetuating any of the aforementioned practices (have you ever paid for your medical? headset? uniform? ye gods! you're paying to facilitate working for someone else!). this industry (like nature/the ocean/the market/paris) doesn't care about you even if you're a unique and beautiful snowflake and as long as you hold on to some vision for the workplace to become some never-neverland utopia you'll always be disappointed.

there will always be someone younger, flying something faster/higher, making more money, with more days off, and a hotter gf than you and the sooner you reconcile what it is that you are looking for out of this life and work towards that(even if it means signing a bond), the sooner you'll be happy with whatever seatcover you're keeping warm in this gongshow of a business.

[Hot Fuel]

I signed a training bond, but the poll has no box to select for that option.

[Cap'n P8]

Yeah I figured that maybe ISTP would have changed it already, but I guess he is one of the fellows who is so offended by us guys who have or have had bonds. Kind of funny though to think that we are funding his semi-permanent vacation on pogey that he seems to be so proud of. And after graduating from a school that was funded by us as well (you did go to Sault right?)

[Grey_Wolf]

So is there a difference in those who view "buying a job" between these two scenarios?

Going out and buying/getting a PPC by a third party on a machine, THEN, getting a job with an operator who operates those machines?

Being hired by an operator, getting a PCC on a first aircraft, then advancing to a "bigger plane" with the company by signing a bond?

[Doc]

I signed a training bond, but the poll has no box to select for that option.

That's probably what he meant by the term "promissory note".

[glorifiedtaxidriver]

You can make money with the bond at Wasaya. They pay it back at with pretty decent interest. Better than the bank anyway.

[1/2pV2aCL]

Well said frontside_air.

[Brown Bear]

frontside_air....don't beat around the bush, man. How do you REALLY feel? And I thought Doc tended to carry on. You should be the bloody Pope. You sure do pontificate!

[Hot Fuel]

I was pretty sure that the difference has been hammered into the ground, pulled back up and hammered back in a hundred times on this board. I don't accept the whole buying your job notion of a training bond that requires a finacial transaction.

Can somebody on this board provide me a single example of an individual that has walked into one of these companies, dropped $10,000 to $20,000 grand on a desk without having the credentials or meeting the minimum requirements and was hired simply because he/she had cash in hand?

In my opinion, even for that to qualify as buying a job it would require the company to keep the cash forever. As I remember it, when I bought my car I never got my money back.

[Doc]

Well Hot Fuel, I can name many examples of folks WITH the credentials, but WITHOUT the "$10,000-$20,000" who have NOT been hired by these companies, simply because they did NOT have the cash in hand.
Like walking into a car dealership without the $$$$. No car for them.
In my book, that's buying a job.
Slice it any way you like......you've made my argument for me.
No bling, no job.
Used to be, he who is most qualified got the job. Things seem to have changed? Now, all things been equal, it's he with the bucks gets the job.
And that's wrong.

[Hot Fuel]

We'll simply have to agree to disagree. It seems to me that many seem to think that the "cash" involved in a fair training bond scheme is revenue to the company and that it contribuites to the companies bottomline. Clearly it does not. I'll agree that individuals have no doubt been excluded from a hiring pool because of their inability to obtain a specified amount of capital to cover a bond, unfortunate for them but the reasons for companies adopting this position has also been well discussed. Handshakes, your word as your bond and all those cliches don't mean shit in this day and age of contracts, law suits and I want to make skipper on the A320 by the time I have 2500 hrs. I think my question is still valid, show me somebody that has been able to walk in and get the job with money alone. I think there is a big difference between laying out cash with no return and tendering cash to cover inintial training costs, a commitment of a reasonable period of time and the return, plus interest of your investment.

[Doc]

Hot Fuel, there are no jobs right now (probably will stay that way for a couple of years at least?) so why the requirement? Seriously. I don't know a single pilot who has screwed a company over for training. I'm sure it happens, but it must be pretty rare.
I can see the need for a bond, but not needing a cheque book in an interview.
I work with a couple of young guys. We have no bonds of any kind. These guys are here because they want to be. We run a good operation. Keep our guys happy. Our management has no reason to bond anyone.
Basically IMHO, if a company needs to bond their pilots, they are a crap company, and they know it.
Just between us girls, I think these companies need a wake up call.

[MAG1]

Hey Doc, needing a check book at the interview and qualified pilots missing opportunities without the cash may be the case for some companies, but not all. Will you accept that some companies have a reasonable system in place that allows for ANY pilot to ink a year long deal with a loan(that pays interest)?

p.s.I agree it's BS these things happen at all.

[Doc]

I can see NO circumstances where a company should have the right to ask any pilot to pay, up front for employment. Why? Because some companies pull this shit...

"Two pc-12 f/o (no bond required for this position) have been with the company for about 2-3 years, they started on the ramp. When their name came up for an upgrade to a right seat 1900 or a caravan captain the two did not have bond money, the company gave those positions to recent 4-6 months hires with a lot less experience than the two, simply cause they had the cash for the bond. This company is pathetic."

I don't think I even have to name the company?

I'm not sure of the legalities of even doing something like this, but these young guys were totally screwed, and should reevaluate their future with this company. And, have a chat with a lawyer.

[Driving Rain]

If training bonds were really legal the gumitup would be doing them. Guess what? They ain't.

[snaproll20]

frontside_air.
You have it right.

Do you want to fly, or make money? You maybe cannot have both without good luck and management of your career.

Employees are created to suffer the abuse of their employers. Get used to it.
It has been that way since time immemorial.
If you had been born in Egypt 3000 years ago, you would have probably spent your life hauling on a rope attached to a 2000 lb block of stone for a handful of rice to feed you family. In the Middle Ages, you would have worked from dawn to dusk just to scrape a bare existence and then been expected to spend one day a week tilling his Lordship's land, or the local Church's, just to hope to get into Heaven.

We all get used. Accept it, or start your own business and use other people.

The situtation is worse right now because our society extolls mediocrity as a virtue. If your kid signs up for a sport, your fee pays for an automatic medal honouring his/her attendance for two lack-lustre games in the season. They even have graduation ceremonies for kindergarten now, for C#### sake!!!!!
Rewards for nothing.

Low time pilots are apprenticing. Only the committed and resilient make it. If you have spent huge dollars getting your licence, it is merely 'permission' to practice your trade and improve upon it. At 500 hours you should not be squawking about the lack of respect, slow promotion and poor pay you get. You are not ready yet. You have to start somewhere and if you don't like starting at the bottom, you have no hope of success because you want everything handed to you on a plate.

Should you be paid more? You bettcha!!! But think about the fact that a 10% salary increase for low time pilots would probably result in less customers wanting to pay the extra fees, so you wind up back in the same barrel as companies close down and jobs are lost.

You live in a bitch world. Accept it and deal with it. Use the energy lost to whining to do some positive stuff.

[snaproll20]

Doc.

Years ago, a pilot working for me was handed his ink-still-wet PPC card which had been provided for free.
Within seconds, he walked out of the door to another company.
An Ontario company trained pilots for free on Navajos. The average job tenure there was much less than four months before pilots quit to move on.
A few years ago, a company sent a pilot on a jet training course in the States.
($40,000 plus??). He quit on his return and they were left holding the long distance phone call bills he ran up while in the States, shopping for employment with another company.

If you can say you don't know of a single instance of pilots doing this, you have lived a sheltered life.
Cheers.

[ever]

Doc.

Years ago, a pilot working for me was handed his ink-still-wet PPC card which had been provided for free.
Within seconds, he walked out of the door to another company.
An Ontario company trained pilots for free on Navajos. The average job tenure there was much less than four months before pilots quit to move on.
A few years ago, a company sent a pilot on a jet training course in the States.
($40,000 plus??). He quit on his return and they were left holding the long distance phone call bills he ran up while in the States, shopping for employment with another company.

If you can say you don't know of a single instance of pilots doing this, you have lived a sheltered life.
Cheers.

I have heard of stories like these, but thats all. Ive worked for three companies in my life and never saw any body leave after a fresh PPC and these companies werent particularly the cream of the crop. But apparently many employers have heard of these stories too and are now implementing bonds/promissorry notes etc...

[Doc]

Doc.

Years ago, a pilot working for me was handed his ink-still-wet PPC card which had been provided for free.
Within seconds, he walked out of the door to another company.
An Ontario company trained pilots for free on Navajos. The average job tenure there was much less than four months before pilots quit to move on.
A few years ago, a company sent a pilot on a jet training course in the States.
($40,000 plus??). He quit on his return and they were left holding the long distance phone call bills he ran up while in the States, shopping for employment with another company.

If you can say you don't know of a single instance of pilots doing this, you have lived a sheltered life.
Cheers.

No disrespect intended, but without names, dates and places your whole story is just that. A story.
Once upon a time.......

[. ._]

I just realized. No one has slammed me for spelling "promissory note" wrong.

Thanks!

-istp

[fortis risk]

Frontside Air, I agree with you completely. Thanks for writing it.

[Donald]

No disrespect intended, but without names, dates and places your whole story is just that. A story.
Once upon a time.......

Doc, as a mod you should know better than most, this site has a somewhat strict "no-names" policy. Heck the kid who forged his ATPL in an attempt to get on with Westjet, was named in newspaper articles, yet still couldn't be named on here.

For the record, I have worked with many people who have signed agreements to work for X number of months after training, and have then completed those agreements as promised.

I have also worked with people, who for various reasons, have looked for excuses (some valid) immediately after training was completed to allow them to break the contract without paying.

And I have worked with people who, before training bonds were implemented, left less than 6 months after training was complete to work for operators who only hire PPC'd drivers.

And no, I will not name names for you to validate my "stories".

[snaproll20]

Doc.

Two of those three stories involved me personally, (I-watched-it-happen-before-my-own-eyes!!!!)so kindly realize I don't intend to trot out who I am on here just because you choose not to believe. Why would I make it up?
I wrote a long reply to you, but it got lost, so screw it, I am not going to write it again.

I don't know why you rant on, ignoring the facts about bonds etc, but I guess we will never agree because you are hung up on some kind of principle not supported by business survival.

Do I like bonds? No. Did I see the need for them when I managed companies?
Yes, if only to protect the jobs of the good pilots from the depradations of the dishonest ones who could not or would not keep their word.

[monkeyspankmasterflex]

If training bonds were really legal the gumitup would be doing them. Guess what? They ain't.

The military requires x number of years of mandatory service following training. Same premise I think.