Question about departing at A/C under an Airway

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Here's a question that I've asked some other pilots and have got conflicting answers, so I'm seeing what I can dig up here. Say you are at an uncontrolled airport (ex. Hornepayne, ON) that underlies an airway. Ceilings are 800' overcast at the airport and there is no phone or radio service to call and get an IFR clearance, however we did file an IFR flight plan or itinerary previously for the flight out of Hornepayne. To get the clearance from ATC we would have to enter IMC, and climb up into the airway (say 4000') to establish radio contact. Can we do this legally? (i.e. climb into the airway IMC without a clearance).

Same question for departing from some of the reserves in northern Ontario where you can't reach YWG center until 10-15,000' if the weather at the departing reserve is 800' OVC. Thanks for all your help!

[NJ]

Not too sure. Maybe you can call up the FIC on the phone and get a clearance relayed via FSS.

[Braun]

Nope, you need to get a clearance on the phone then. But yet again who is to prove you are in IMC, it's for your safety!

[GilletteNorth]

Until you recieve a clearance you are not legally IFR and must remain VFR. Try calling the nearest ATS unit for a clearance via phone just prior to departure.

[lilfssister]

Ceilings are 800' overcast at the airport and there is no phone or radio service to call and get an IFR clearance,

[NJ]

Well then write a letter. Could another aircraft relay the clearance?

[ahramin]

Wow, so many wrong answers.

You cannot enter any class of controlled airspace IFR without a clearance. However, you cannot get and do not need a clearance fly in uncontrolled airspace. So get your AIM out, look up airspace and see at what altitude the class G at the airport turns into class E. Climb to that altitude, level off, and get your clearance.

Obviously the ideal thing would be to get the sat phone out and get your clearance on the ground before you leave.

If you are departing from an airport that is not under some sort of low level controlled airspace, you can climb to anything below 18 000' and get your clearance from there.

Please don't just ask a few pilots and then do whatever you want people. There are two things to know here. The first is excessively simple: You cannot fly IFR in controlled airspace without a clearance! The second is understanding the airspace structure so you know where that airspace is. This is not easy and you will not be able to do this by asking joe from bush air. Get the books out and study.

[culver10]

Here is Canada's Aispace in picture form

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Alright so I'm looking at the airspace poster and see that class E airspace (ex. low level airway) starts at 2200' AGL. It also says we need a clearance. In the scenario I gave, we can't climb high enough VFR to get a clearance, and cannot reach ATC by phone. The point made about climbing and leveling off at the point which class G turns to E is irrelevant because we can't get that high anyways. Therefore as I understand it, we can't legally depart the airport under these conditions, unless we departed VFR and cruised just below the clouds until we can reach ATC or get a relayed clearance. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And to tackle the second part of my original question,

Same question for departing from some of the reserves in northern Ontario where you can't reach YWG center until 10-15,000' if the weather at the departing reserve is 800' OVC.

it looks like most of the reserves are class G, so we can enter IMC without a clearance according to the poster (as long as we stay below FL180, 12,500, etc. as the case may be).

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Or another option I guess is to ask for a clearance on descent into the airport for the return leg, which works... sometimes. I've had times where center expects another A/C to be on the airway at our proposed departure time and they won't give us a clearance. Or, we don't know exactly how long we'll be on the ground and can't give a reasonable expectation of a departure time. Then we're back to square one, namely being on the ground, with the airport covered in low cloud and no way to get a clearance.

I know I'm asking a lof of questions here, but could it make sense to depart VFR, stay under the cloud until clear of the airway, climb up in class G and then get a clearance?

[culver10]

I'm in Nav Canada IFR Basic Training school right now and I will pose your scenario to my instructors and see if they can come up with a good answer for your very interesting situation. I quickly scanned the Nav Can MANOPS and could not find a Nav Can answer.

[ahramin]

Why would you depart VFR and stay clear of the airway? Depart IFR, stay clear of the airway, and get a clearance when you can. It may be worth your while to head 90 degrees to the airway to clear it, then fly along side it while you climb up high enough to get in radio range. The whole discussion seems silly though. If you are operating in these remote areas, you should have a satellite phone, end of story.

The option of getting the departure clearance on the way in is a good one, if and when it works. For all other times, use the sat phone.

[roger.roger]

But yet again who is to prove you are in IMC

there's your answer. depart VFR, climb to altitude and get your clearance. For a company that made a billion dollars last year they sure have piss poor radio towers (what do those thigs cost anyway $5000) in busy places. But as long as you remeber their there to serve you so don't delay a flight or even waste your sat phone minutes on talking to them (it's there for emergencies) if they thought it was a priority to talk to you they would.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

But yet again who is to prove you are in IMC

Maybe it's me but isn't that a little unsafe? Blasting up into a busy airway IMC without conflict resolution from ATC just to save a delay or sat phone minutes? And I said that we don't have a sat phone by the way.

[Braun]

Yes it is as ATC I hate to see stuff like this. The best way is to call off the ground that way we will protect for you and you can enter IMC right off take off and never worry about receiving your clearance, traffic or whatever.

[roger.roger]

Yes it is as ATC I hate to see stuff like this. The best way is to call off the ground that way we will protect for you and you can enter IMC right off take off and never worry about receiving your clearance, traffic or whatever.

If it was important to talk to departing planes from that airport you would have the ability to do it.

make a 126.7 call and go

[ahramin]

DHC-1 Jockey, why don't you have a sat phone? If you are landing at places with no communications, you should have one.

[sakism]

Because lot's of companies won't pay for Sat phones.

Makes any trips to NW Ontario a royal pain.

To clarify the question - where is there an aerodrome that is under an airway that has no phone? It is an interesting scenario, but any of the places I have been that are without phones are quite far from any controlled airspace.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Because lot's of companies won't pay for Sat phones... To clarify the question - where is there an aerodrome that is under an airway that has no phone?

Our A/C are getting upgraded avionics that include a sat phone in the COM 3 spot, and we do have hand-helds, but they are notoriously unreliable.

I don't have a LO chart with me right now, but the airports I'm talking are the small uncontrolled ones ones we fly into at 3 AM, everything's locked up and they pay phone's inside the terminal with no way to get to it or it's on the other side of a barbed wire fence. It's uncommon that we fly into a place like this as most of the time we can reach ATC on the ground, or there's a radio service where we can reach a radio station (ex. Dryden vis YXL Radio) or we have a door code to get into a hangar or terminal where there's a phone. My example is the exception rather than the rule.

[NJ]

In places like that. How do you close out your flight plan? If it's IMC you won't cancel your IFR. So you'd end up with an alerting issue on landing never mind a departure clearance issue.

[ahramin]

If you are having an issue with your handheld sat phones get rid of them. In a year of using ours I have only had a problem once, and I got through less than 15 minutes after that.

Good question about how you tell center you are cleared of controlled airspace. Sounds like the solution here is to get the outbound clearance on the way in before you lose contact.

[AuxBatOn]

You cannot enter any class of controlled airspace without a clearance. However, you cannot get and do not need a clearance fly in uncontrolled airspace. So get your AIM out, look up airspace and see at what altitude the class G at the airport turns into class E. Climb to that altitude, level off, and get your clearance.

Actually, you do not need a clearance to operate VFR in Class E, D and G.

[roger.roger]

[quote]Quote:
But yet again who is to prove you are in IMC


there's your answer. depart VFR, climb to altitude and get your clearance. For a company that made a billion dollars last year they sure have piss poor radio towers (what do those thigs cost anyway $5000) in busy places. But as long as you remeber their there to serve you so don't delay a flight or even waste your sat phone minutes on talking to them (it's there for emergencies) if they thought it was a priority to talk to you they would.
[quote]


so I says again.

Just remeber, If you were their priority they would find a way to talk to you.

[ahramin]

You cannot enter any class of controlled airspace without a clearance. However, you cannot get and do not need a clearance fly in uncontrolled airspace. So get your AIM out, look up airspace and see at what altitude the class G at the airport turns into class E. Climb to that altitude, level off, and get your clearance.

Actually, you do not need a clearance to operate VFR in Class E, D and G.

WHOOPS. I didn't say that did I? I'm sure I had an IFR in there somewhere. Oh damn, it's lower down. Good catch.

Check, correcting.

[yrp]

Ceilings are 800' overcast at the airport and there is no phone or radio service to call and get an IFR clearance,

Well obviously, you gotta do it through the internet then! Sheesh!