Latest YVR crash

[2R]

Any more news as to the cause yet ?
or does nobody care anymore ?

[just curious]

There won't be any dramatic revelations until the board finishes it's investigation. It isn't a matter of caring. Without a CVR and FDR an accident like this doesn't easily reveal a cause. Speculation just gives fodder to the usual media frenzy related to death.

[2R]

Thanks, JC

[canpilot]

2R,

I know you probably mean no harm in your post.. BUT..

Did you see the last post? It got quite ugly ..very quick. I can understand people wanting to know the cause.. but that can come later...Lets Just leave it be. Marktheone asked the last thread to be locked for those reasons.


And yes, people do care..people are still very shaken with the deaths of the crew. I was working at the southside 36 hours after the crash of APEX 511. There were alot of teary eyed people.

lets have some respect for the deceased and the people who knew them.

Maybe we can start this thread over and make it something more along the lines of a tribute to the crew? Or something that shows the level of compassion/camaraderie us aviators have...I think the families, friends and co-workers would appreciate that. As opposed to speculation/ insults that have been dished out in previous posts.

[2R]

Sorry, Canpilot just looking for news as the story seemed to have fallen off the radar.
How long do these TSB things usually take ?

[Sulako]

All of us feel for the pilots and their families, but I agree that we should still say it out loud. I think it's also okay for us to talk about our fears and concerns regarding apparent (or even imagined) causes. I feel terrible for the families of the guys involved, and I think that all our hearts are breaking a little for the loss of these two young pilots. There's nothing I can say that will make their pain go away, and seeing as how I'm not smart, the next best thing I can come up with is to talk about things that might help even just one of us from meeting a similar fate. It's such a fine line to walk though... Remember that none of us was there and for now it's all speculation. If you want to post in this thread, I ask that you think about your post for a few minutes before hitting the submit button - It's not impossible that the families and friends of the pilots involved will be reading this thread, and they are in hell right now, so please be gentle.

[Widow]

Sorry, Canpilot just looking for news as the story seemed to have fallen off the radar.
How long do these TSB things usually take ?

It depends on a lot of factors, but 1.5 to 2 years seems to be the average. Preliminary reports are unusual.

[_dwj_]

I think it's also okay for us to talk about our fears and concerns regarding apparent (or even imagined) causes. I feel terrible for the families of the guys involved, and I think that it's a pretty safe assumption that all our hearts are breaking a little for the loss of these two young pilots. There's nothing I can say that will make their pain go away, and seeing as how I'm not smart, the next best thing I can come up with is to talk about things that might help even just one of us from meeting a similar fate. It's such a fine line to walk though... Remember that none of us was there and for now it's all speculation. If you want to post in this thread, I ask that you think about your post for a few minutes before hitting the submit button - It's not impossible that the families and friends of the pilots involved will be reading this thread, and they are in hell right now, so please be gentle.

Ok, I'll bite. Based on what we know, wake turbulence seems high on the list of possible causes. Yearwood said the Navajo "turned into a path about three kilometres behind the Air Canada Airbus 321 jet." (1.6nm). According to posts on another forum, the flight tracking data shows the Navajo was 200 feet lower than the Airbus was at the point where it crashed.

As I understand it, minimum spacing for a light following a medium is 5nm, but that only applies to IFR arrivals. For VFR (which the Navajo was) it is up to the pilot to ensure wake turbulence separation. Am I correct?

Some questions that come to mind:

- Does the controller give wake turbulence warnings to VFR arrivals?
- Is it normal for VFR pilots at YVR to reduce the separation if they believe it to be safe to do so? And if so, is this a good idea?
- Do charter operators have SOPs for wake turbulence separation for their VFR flights or is it just up to the pilot?

For anyone interested, here is a good article on wake turbulence:

http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/sp9810.html

[Flying Nutcracker]

How about this for a change...

I've decided not to give any thoughts about this one out of respect for the involved. If more of us just put a "lid" on it, maybe it would clean up the distractions from the true story.

Mark, Airdogalpha, I have to give you credit for the way you have learned to steer the media away from the sensationalist reporting that they are trying for. Particularily this last one you seem to have mastered the diversionary tactic to avoid the sometimes ridiculous questions the media are shooting off, and manage to force them in to more factual reporting. Kudos to you man!

I agree with Cat! I am glad we have a representative with knowledge about the industry to help fend off the punches the media is throwing. Keep up the good work, Mark!

Just a thought... If you want to discuss things to help prevent things from happening again, start a thread about the actual issue your thinking of, such as "Have you ever encountered wake turbulence?", "Have you ever had an overrun?", "Have you ever been caught in bad icing conditions?"...

Get pilots to discuss actual experiences about these things in a non-speculative manner away from the accident itself. This way you have pilots with actual experiences that can give valuable hints and advise that are factual. As we grieve over lost peers, we can pull together and learn from not necessarily the latest accident, but actual past incidents that have similarities. We don't know what caused that latest accident, but we can draw similarities to experiences in the past and educate ourselves as a group to help prevent future accidents.

To further educate yourself... there is litterature on a lot of accidents that may be similar to the one in discussion. Christ, there is even stuff on pretty much every topic you can imagine...

Spend some time looking for it and then share it with us and be a contributing member of the group!

Just my 2 cents

FN
Just a human aviator

[ottawa,kan]

Just curious why it takes so long for your safety agency to issue a report, and why never a prelim report. The Buffalo crash was pretty much settled and put to rest by the NTSB after what, a month or so? The Air France thing has been pretty hashed out by the French safety people, though they still want desperately to find the "black" boxes. I for one learn a lot from these preliminary reports. And I also learn a lot from reading about what you guys speculate. I'm sure it must be hard on the families and friends, but for what it's worth the speculation helps me think of things I need to be watching for or doing differently.

[shannon]

I agree, as someone with an awful lot to learn it helps to hear all the theories from more seasoned voices. As long as the audience accepts them as theories they seem like a great learning tool. The moderators I'm sure will ensure it stays respectful.

[A2G]

How about this....I've known Jeremy and the Mills family since I was little. I think this tragic event can be linked to the "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots" . Jeremy would bust his ass painting during the day on top of flying at night so he could make some $$$. We all know how much those guys make flying, and to live in the lower mainland on those wages is tough at the best of times. I bet they just wanted to get down so they could get to sleep at a reasonable hour so he could wake up early to go paint and make some real $$$. I bet the separation threshold in their minds grew smaller with every passing minute.

I know he (and his family)would want his tragic death to if anything, at least help improve the conditions of his fellow pilots. If he was paid enough and didn't have to bust his ass at a second job they would both still be here.

Lets bring the working conditions out from industry only eyes and let the traveling public know who holds their life in their hands, and the conditions they work in.

PAY PILOTS ENOUGH SO THEY FLY SAFE!!!!!!

[Skydrvr7]

If I should perish in an aircraft as the pilot or crew...please do your best to make sure that I do not die in vain. If I made some error that can be learned from to save even one fellow aviator in the future then my death will have served as a cautionary tale to those who follow behind me. Regardless of the circumstances, we all must learn from the incidents that occur to others in our industry...that has been the history of aviation since its inception...we all gain from learning what works and what does not. The worst thing we could do is try and look past any aviation incident and not use our intellect to try and avoid a similar incident ourselves. It is a great disservice to those who have perished to not learn something from their passing...it is not to condemn but to make something positive and lasting from their situations that can save (hopefully) many lives.

Also...make flying a profession...pay these professionals the money that goes along with folks who hold people's lives in their hands each and every day...you spend as much money as a Doctor for your choice of career yet you stand to scrape and scratch out a living earning less money than trades people do...something has to give and pilots need to be given the same standing professionally as other VERY skilled professionals receive.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to the professional pilots who have perished here...May they rest in peace always and forever.

[2R]

http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/fier ... story.html

Witness's say that it was on fire before it hit the ground.That does not sound like pilot error.
Although how reliable the witness's are is something a decent detective would sort out in about five minutes.

[Rowdy]

Not wanting to add to any speculation, But I know the crew that was behind them in another AC 320. They saw the fireball and had been in contact with atc and had the navajo on TCAS prior to impact. They were quite shaken after having watched/heard the sequence of events.

As for the pre-impact fire, thats very possible. Would be easy to miss smoke at night until it was too late as well. Again, I hate to see pilot error so quickly fingered as a cause. Could this have been similar to the comox accident?

I knew Matt quite well and he will truly be missed. Sucks that I'm on the other side of the world and cant make the memorial, but a certain family member will be there in my place. My deepest and most sincere condolences and sympathies to all the fellow friends, crews, parents and families.

[...]

My deepest sympathies to all that knew these two young people.

MT

[marktheone]

How about this....I've known Jeremy and the Mills family since I was little. I think this tragic event can be linked to the "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots" . Jeremy would bust his ass painting during the day on top of flying at night so he could make some $$$. We all know how much those guys make flying, and to live in the lower mainland on those wages is tough at the best of times. I bet they just wanted to get down so they could get to sleep at a reasonable hour so he could wake up early to go paint and make some real $$$. I bet the separation threshold in their minds grew smaller with every passing minute.

I know he (and his family)would want his tragic death to if anything, at least help improve the conditions of his fellow pilots. If he was paid enough and didn't have to bust his ass at a second job they would both still be here.

Lets bring the working conditions out from industry only eyes and let the traveling public know who holds their life in their hands, and the conditions they work in.

PAY PILOTS ENOUGH SO THEY FLY SAFE!!!!!! Yeah I'm pissed so @#$! all you cheap operator bastards!

I should know better than to comment on this and I do, but still I will. Once. I was Jer's captain on his last overnight with us. We were in North Bend Oregon. He and I were there for 3 days and had many a beer together. I asked him, after having a few, if he was doing ok. I won't dishonour him by publicly revealing what he said but he was happy with his current pay scale and were he here he would tell you straight up that I have PERSONALLY influenced the pay scale in Vancouver. Often this has been done at personal expense to my personal wallet. I take real offense, as would Jer, at you saying we are a "cheap @#$! operator".

I have posted before that the problem lies largely in the flying publics errant god given right to fly for free. I have PERSONALLY pushed the wage envelope as far as I can push it. I'm going to hold back a little here in case you are a close friend of Jer's. I understand your frustration. I am in the same spot, maybe worse. Point your frustration in the right direction though.

Mark

[FL050]

Mark, if thats true, than thank you for doing the best you can. As you well know, pay IS a major issue in the industry. Forgive people for not knowing there is an operator out there trying to do something about that. And I hope this thread stays open.

[GARRETT]

Hey guys. I totally agree with the concept of learning from others mistakes and I understand the need to get these accidents investigated to further safety but do we really ever learn anything? Even if we find out the cause, will it help you or me to not make the same mistake? Hopefully it will but as I've seen in the past it sometimes doesn't. Why after countless fatal CFIT accidents do pilots still .. run and push weather? Every year we see this same F**king accident! Why?!? Why don't we actually listen to ourselves and learn from accidents rather than just say we will. CFIT is just one example but many times the exact same accident reoccurs and we still sit here and say we should learn from others mistakes. If you sitting around doing nothing one day go to the TSB website and read a few reports, it's far more constructive than surfing porn all day

[Sulako]

Why after countless fatal CFIT accidents do pilots still .. run and push weather? Every year we see this same F**king accident! Why?!? Why don't we actually listen to ourselves and learn from accidents rather than just say we will. CFIT is just one example but many times the exact same accident reoccurs and we still sit here and say we should learn from others mistakes.

They don't publish stats for the amount of avoided accidents, just the ones that happened. I know that learning about accidents helps - it reminded me not to freak out one night when the door came open in a Baron on rotation, because I read it happened to another guy and he ended up losing control of the plane even though there is only a tiny effect on aircraft performance with an open door. It was loud and cold, but I told myself "Don't be like that guy" and did a circuit and landed without incident. Maybe that's a lame example, but it came to me off the top of my head, and I'm sure most of us could think of times when knowledge of the misfortunes of other pilots has played a part in our decision-making. Unfortunately, not everyone hears the same stories, and sometimes terrible things just happen. The goal is to minimize the accidents we have control over, and I think education helps.

[_dwj_]

Speaking for myself, I'm an accident junkie - I've watched all the Mayday episodes on Discovery, and the accident/enforcements are the first thing I read in COPA's newsletter. The reason is simply because I am very interested in the safety of both myself and my passengers. I'm always running scenarios through my head - what if the engine fails, what if I flew into bad weather, what if I underestimated the weight of passengers and we careened off the end of the runway into the ditch and burned, etc. I find that reading accident reports helps me be a safer pilot by not making as many dumb decisions. The more reports you read, the fresher it will be in your mind when it comes to making one of those tempting bad decisions. The image of a flaming wreckage popping in your head when you contemplate low flying, overloading your plane or flying in marginal VFR weather is a good antidote to stupidity, and the more reports you read the more likely this will happen (or maybe I just have a very good imagination).

Transport Canada does a great job by sending the aviation safety letter to every pilot, but I wonder how many people actually read it?

[Cat Driver]

I credit reading about accidents and thinking about how to avoid the same mistakes myself for part of the reason my career was accident free,,that and a good amount of luck.

[DBURP]

How about this....I've known Jeremy and the Mills family since I was little. I think this tragic event can be linked to the "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots" . Jeremy would bust his ass painting during the day on top of flying at night so he could make some $$$. We all know how much those guys make flying, and to live in the lower mainland on those wages is tough at the best of times. I bet they just wanted to get down so they could get to sleep at a reasonable hour so he could wake up early to go paint and make some real $$$. I bet the separation threshold in their minds grew smaller with every passing minute.

I know he (and his family)would want his tragic death to if anything, at least help improve the conditions of his fellow pilots. If he was paid enough and didn't have to bust his ass at a second job they would both still be here.

Lets bring the working conditions out from industry only eyes and let the traveling public know who holds their life in their hands, and the conditions they work in.

PAY PILOTS ENOUGH SO THEY FLY SAFE!!!!!! Yeah I'm pissed so @#$! all you cheap operator bastards!

I should know better than to comment on this and I do, but still I will. Once. I was Jer's captain on his last overnight with us. We were in North Bend Oregon. He and I were there for 3 days and had many a beer together. I asked him, after having a few, if he was doing ok. I won't dishonour him by publicly revealing what he said but he was happy with his current pay scale and were he here he would tell you straight up that I have PERSONALLY influenced the pay scale in Vancouver. Often this has been done at personal expense to my personal wallet. I take real offense, as would Jer, at you saying we are a "cheap @#$! operator".

I have posted before that the problem lies largely in the flying publics errant god given right to fly for free. I have PERSONALLY pushed the wage envelope as far as I can push it. I'm going to hold back a little here in case you are a close friend of Jer's. I understand your frustration. I am in the same spot, maybe worse. Point your frustration in the right direction though.

Mark

I also should know better than too post here, but I found myself very disturbed with "A2G"s comments. I knew Matt very well, in fact we were roommates for a year. We would often share beers and discuss the current "state" of our industry. And I can assure you that CAC is one of the premier companies in Canada. Matt truly loved going to work for CAC, he cherished every hour that he flew. He was well treated, well respected and well paid. Any ill gotten anger towards the company should be re-thought. I can tell you with absolute certainty and personal experience the only words you would hear out of Matt's mouth about Mark and everyone else in the company would be only of admiration and respect. If more companies in Canada would be run with such care and devotion to their pilots all of us would be much safer.

As this will be the one and only time I post here I will say...Matt you were truly loved, an excellent friend, person and pilot. You will forever be remembered. Ill see you skies friend...

[Flying Nutcracker]

I've been reading accident reports for about 3 decades now, and the thing I find most educational is not the sole reason behind the accidents, but more the indept analysis of what led to the sole reason for the accident.

We are talking swiss cheese here... there have been several flights, I am sure, that I have been part of that have had several holes in them, but all of them have not lined up. I credit reading the reports for this, as it has taught me to IDENTIFY problems and issues before they have compounded themselves in to something more serious. You try your best to make educated decisions as a pilot and crew, and part of CRM is knowledge and awareness. The reports contribute to a safer flying environment, but are not preventing all accidents. This is why I think it is important to never let your guard down, always keeping up with the airplane and be alert to things that are out of the norm. Easier said than done when the weather is bad and you are fighting fatigue with burning eyes at night... Still... this is what we are paid to do! Rest is an important item on my checklist. Sometimes I get it, sometimes the timezones make it impossible... I ask myself am I ready for a bad situation if it should happen? I owe it to the rest of my crew to be fit for flight so I don't become a distraction for them.

Being conservative in my flying and knowing my limits have become a fundamental principle in me doing my job. You try to be efficient, yet not stupid. Forget about personal pressures, outside pressures from company or clients or passengers... just focus on the flight you are doing right now and get it done safely. How many reports have you read where the crew was up against several "pressures" beyond their control and abilities? Yet we still see some happening every once in a while...

Every time an accident happens my heart sinks. Is it someone I know, is it my company??? It hurts even though I don't know the ones who are involved, because ultimately it is one or more of our peers that have paid the ultimate price. I want to know why! But I also want to know all the reasons, to get closure and move on with the knowledge that I will try my best to not become a statistic myself.

Cat has probably seen stuff that we never will see, mainly because of a very restrictive regulation these days. I envy you Cat for having been where you have, yet I hope I never get to see some of the stuff you've seen. Lucky or not... I think you have been fortunate to be smart enough to say no when a no was needed. That is something both me and a lot of others could learn from!

FN

[Cat Driver]

Cat has probably seen stuff that we never will see, mainly because of a very restrictive regulation these days. I envy you Cat for having been where you have, yet I hope I never get to see some of the stuff you've seen. Lucky or not... I think you have been fortunate to be smart enough to say no when a no was needed. That is something both me and a lot of others could learn from!

FN

Actually Flying Nutcracker I truly do not believe that more regulations make for a safer industry.

I am no longer flying in what was the difficult sector of aviation that I retired from but I quite often think about some of the more memorable flights we experienced and the times when I said no even though there was great pressure on us to keep pushing by some clients.

My crew were very supportive of me and in return we never ever flew unless all three of us were in agreement as to the risk factor and our options to mitigate risk.

Weather was almost always our most difficult problem to cope with, especially in a lot of the countries we ferried airplanes through.

As an example we were stuck in Reggio di Calabria in Italy for three days because of head winds on our route to Corsica. The weather was good VFR but the head winds were strong enough that I did not want to chance losing an engine in the wrong place and not have the fuel to make a safe area to land....and of course the extra fuel burn would have been more than our hotel rooms anyhow.

It is stressful trying to explain to a client why you are not flying in VFR weather.

Anyhow I could use up all Avcanada's bandwith with war stories so I won't bore you all any more tonight.

Cat.....a retired mercenary who sometimes longs for excitement again.

P.S. :

To Marktheone and all the friends of that crew who died a couple of days ago I wish I could do something to make it easier but all I can say is I never will be able to deal with these things without very serious emotional grief.