When given the instruction to "arrange flight to cross FIXXX at HHMM", and there is a published hold at FIXXX, is that an instruction to hold if you can't slow down enough to make your time? Once that time expires, do you continue as per previously cleared route without further clearance/instruction?
What if there isn't a published hold at FIXXX and you can't slow down enough, hold anyway on the inbound?
"Arrange flight to cross..."
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invertedattitude
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Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
Removed, see IFRATC's post.
Last edited by invertedattitude on Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
Ummm NO.
If I tell an aircraft to cross a fix at a given time, eg. meter time at a bedpost fix, if they are unable they ARE to enter a hold. They are then to adjust their hold so as to depart the fix inbound at there given time. If the fix has a published hold then the PH is executed. If not, a standard hold on their inbound track unless otherwise stated. A depart fix time is a clearance.
Here in YYZ we issue them all the time with volume. Flow control will call with X number of times for your bedpost, it is then up to you to issue them and manage your "stack". We are allowed plus or minus 2 minutes. Their are 4 bedposts and during peak periods or weather ALL 4 WILL BE HOLDING WITH METER TIMES. We adjust their times by extending outbound headings or vectors, but they will all enter a hold initially if unable to meet there crossing times.
IFRATC
If I tell an aircraft to cross a fix at a given time, eg. meter time at a bedpost fix, if they are unable they ARE to enter a hold. They are then to adjust their hold so as to depart the fix inbound at there given time. If the fix has a published hold then the PH is executed. If not, a standard hold on their inbound track unless otherwise stated. A depart fix time is a clearance.
Here in YYZ we issue them all the time with volume. Flow control will call with X number of times for your bedpost, it is then up to you to issue them and manage your "stack". We are allowed plus or minus 2 minutes. Their are 4 bedposts and during peak periods or weather ALL 4 WILL BE HOLDING WITH METER TIMES. We adjust their times by extending outbound headings or vectors, but they will all enter a hold initially if unable to meet there crossing times.
IFRATC
Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
Sorry invertedattitude, but I've got to agree with IFRATC. That's one of the reasons for giving a crossing time. The fact that the a/c will automatically enter a hold without a holding clearance is a time saver in a busy environment. You don't have to issue holding instructions to every a/c thereby cutting down the workload.IFRATC wrote:Ummm NO.
If I tell an aircraft to cross a fix at a given time, eg. meter time at a bedpost fix, if they are unable they ARE to enter a hold. They are then to adjust their hold so as to depart the fix inbound at there given time. If the fix has a published hold then the PH is executed. If not, a standard hold on their inbound track unless otherwise stated. A depart fix time is a clearance.
Here in YYZ we issue them all the time with volume. Flow control will call with X number of times for your bedpost, it is then up to you to issue them and manage your "stack". We are allowed plus or minus 2 minutes. Their are 4 bedposts and during peak periods or weather ALL 4 WILL BE HOLDING WITH METER TIMES. We adjust their times by extending outbound headings or vectors, but they will all enter a hold initially if unable to meet there crossing times.
IFRATC
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invertedattitude
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Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
Don't want to argue what soever, it's something I totally understand, the reasons we use it are totally different than the reasons you guys would be using it for arrival sequencing is all.zzjayca wrote:Sorry invertedattitude, but I've got to agree with IFRATC. That's one of the reasons for giving a crossing time. The fact that the a/c will automatically enter a hold without a holding clearance is a time saver in a busy environment. You don't have to issue holding instructions to every a/c thereby cutting down the workload.IFRATC wrote:Ummm NO.
If I tell an aircraft to cross a fix at a given time, eg. meter time at a bedpost fix, if they are unable they ARE to enter a hold. They are then to adjust their hold so as to depart the fix inbound at there given time. If the fix has a published hold then the PH is executed. If not, a standard hold on their inbound track unless otherwise stated. A depart fix time is a clearance.
Here in YYZ we issue them all the time with volume. Flow control will call with X number of times for your bedpost, it is then up to you to issue them and manage your "stack". We are allowed plus or minus 2 minutes. Their are 4 bedposts and during peak periods or weather ALL 4 WILL BE HOLDING WITH METER TIMES. We adjust their times by extending outbound headings or vectors, but they will all enter a hold initially if unable to meet there crossing times.
IFRATC
We don't use it here for arrival sequencing, but for proving and establishing enroute procedural oceanic separation. Somewhat of a different animal.
A lot of times, going out on the NAT's the pilots actually get the time restrictions via datalink, but usually these are confirmed via voice as well.
Sorry for the confusion.
Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
No worries man. ARR/DEP, low level enroute, and high level enroute are all different. (not to mention oceanic versus domestic.)
Just didn't want pilots thinking they had to ask ATC if they were to hold everytime we issue crossing times.
Just didn't want pilots thinking they had to ask ATC if they were to hold everytime we issue crossing times.
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invertedattitude
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Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
Anyone have the supporting documentation for the pilot side of this?
Tried searching the AIM, but Transports website search functions are limited.
I found the reference in MANOPS, but it gives no indication of course on what the pilot is expected to do.
474.3
Establish longitudinal separation by clearing an
aircraft:
A. to depart at a specified time;
B. to arrive over a specified fix at a specified
time; (P)
ATC 4-63
C. to hold at a fix until a specified time; or
D. to reverse heading.
474.3 B. Phraseology:
ARRANGE YOUR FLIGHT TO ARRIVE OVER
(reporting point) NOT BEFORE/LATER THAN
(time).
Tried searching the AIM, but Transports website search functions are limited.
I found the reference in MANOPS, but it gives no indication of course on what the pilot is expected to do.
474.3
Establish longitudinal separation by clearing an
aircraft:
A. to depart at a specified time;
B. to arrive over a specified fix at a specified
time; (P)
ATC 4-63
C. to hold at a fix until a specified time; or
D. to reverse heading.
474.3 B. Phraseology:
ARRANGE YOUR FLIGHT TO ARRIVE OVER
(reporting point) NOT BEFORE/LATER THAN
(time).
Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
Inverted,
As mentioned in my PM....After your message I wanted to publicly say that I was pretty quick to negate your (Deleted) post. I will apologize for that. Your PM to me was valid. Hope you get to the bottom of this subject with reference to how you guys operate.....
IFRATC
As mentioned in my PM....After your message I wanted to publicly say that I was pretty quick to negate your (Deleted) post. I will apologize for that. Your PM to me was valid. Hope you get to the bottom of this subject with reference to how you guys operate.....
IFRATC
Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
I love this forum! We are so great arent we?
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invertedattitude
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Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
Can't you feel the love?tesox2 wrote:
I love this forum! We are so great arent we?
Still haven't been able to find the relative pilot related info.
Why can't apple write a MANOPS application for my Iphone...
Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
Nothing in the AIM about crossing times that I can find.
Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
RAC
8.10 Clearance Limit
The clearance limit, as specified in an ATC clearance, is the point to which an aircraft is cleared. Further clearance is delivered to a flight prior to arrival at the clearance limit. However, occasions may arise when this may not be possible. In the event that further clearance is not received, the pilot is to hold at the clearance limit, maintain the last assigned altitude and request further clearance. If communications cannot be established with ATC, the pilot should then proceed in accordance with communications failure procedures as described in RAC 6.3.2.
The responsibility rests with the pilot to determine whether or not a received clearance can be complied with in the event of a communications failure. Under such circumstances, a clearance may be refused, but such refusal should specify acceptable alternatives.
RAC
10.2 Holding clearance
Occasionally, a pilot may reach a clearance limit before obtaining further clearance from ATC. In this event, where a holding pattern is published at the clearance limit, the pilot is to hold as published. Where no holding pattern is published, the pilot is to hold in a standard pattern on the inbound track to such clearance limit and request further clearance. (See RAC 10.10 for procedure to be used when the holding pattern is published on en route charts or terminal area charts.) If communication cannot be established with ATC, the pilot should then proceed in accordance with communication failure procedures as described in RAC 6.3.2.
There is also the issue of clearance limits and pilot expectations within STAR arrivals...comm failure in an open STAR vs no comm failure in an open STAR. Interesting points to consider as an ATC or pilot...
Open RNAV STAR Procedures
Approach Clearance (Open Procedure)
If an approach clearance is received at least 3 mi. prior to the DTW, while flying the “open procedure,” the pilot is expected to follow the lateral route to the DTW, then to the FACF, intercept the final approach and fly the straight-in approach. Turn anticipation is to be expected at both the DTW and the FACF, and all depicted altitudes and speeds shall be complied with, unless otherwise authorized by ATC.
If an approach clearance has not been received at least 3 mi. prior to the DTW, the pilot is expected to continue to the DTW and fly the heading after the DTW as depicted. The controller will issue vectors to intercept the final approach from which a straight-in approach can be flown.
Comm loss(open STAR)
When an aircraft has not received any additional clearances or instructions after commencing the RNAV STAR (leaving the en route), and prior to reaching the DTW (Open Procedure), and loss of communications has been indicated, it is expected that the pilot will continue to the DTW, then to the FACF, intercept final, and fly the straight-in approach while honouring all depicted altitude restrictions and speed constraints.
If an aircraft has passed the DTW (Open Procedure), and has not received any additional instructions or clearances, and after loss of communications has been indicated, it is expected that the pilot will proceed direct to the FACF, and fly the straight-in approach while honouring the depicted altitude at the FACF.
Is this what you're looking for?
8.10 Clearance Limit
The clearance limit, as specified in an ATC clearance, is the point to which an aircraft is cleared. Further clearance is delivered to a flight prior to arrival at the clearance limit. However, occasions may arise when this may not be possible. In the event that further clearance is not received, the pilot is to hold at the clearance limit, maintain the last assigned altitude and request further clearance. If communications cannot be established with ATC, the pilot should then proceed in accordance with communications failure procedures as described in RAC 6.3.2.
The responsibility rests with the pilot to determine whether or not a received clearance can be complied with in the event of a communications failure. Under such circumstances, a clearance may be refused, but such refusal should specify acceptable alternatives.
RAC
10.2 Holding clearance
Occasionally, a pilot may reach a clearance limit before obtaining further clearance from ATC. In this event, where a holding pattern is published at the clearance limit, the pilot is to hold as published. Where no holding pattern is published, the pilot is to hold in a standard pattern on the inbound track to such clearance limit and request further clearance. (See RAC 10.10 for procedure to be used when the holding pattern is published on en route charts or terminal area charts.) If communication cannot be established with ATC, the pilot should then proceed in accordance with communication failure procedures as described in RAC 6.3.2.
There is also the issue of clearance limits and pilot expectations within STAR arrivals...comm failure in an open STAR vs no comm failure in an open STAR. Interesting points to consider as an ATC or pilot...
Open RNAV STAR Procedures
Approach Clearance (Open Procedure)
If an approach clearance is received at least 3 mi. prior to the DTW, while flying the “open procedure,” the pilot is expected to follow the lateral route to the DTW, then to the FACF, intercept the final approach and fly the straight-in approach. Turn anticipation is to be expected at both the DTW and the FACF, and all depicted altitudes and speeds shall be complied with, unless otherwise authorized by ATC.
If an approach clearance has not been received at least 3 mi. prior to the DTW, the pilot is expected to continue to the DTW and fly the heading after the DTW as depicted. The controller will issue vectors to intercept the final approach from which a straight-in approach can be flown.
Comm loss(open STAR)
When an aircraft has not received any additional clearances or instructions after commencing the RNAV STAR (leaving the en route), and prior to reaching the DTW (Open Procedure), and loss of communications has been indicated, it is expected that the pilot will continue to the DTW, then to the FACF, intercept final, and fly the straight-in approach while honouring all depicted altitude restrictions and speed constraints.
If an aircraft has passed the DTW (Open Procedure), and has not received any additional instructions or clearances, and after loss of communications has been indicated, it is expected that the pilot will proceed direct to the FACF, and fly the straight-in approach while honouring the depicted altitude at the FACF.
Is this what you're looking for?
Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
Good call tesox2. While an "Arrange to cross" does not actually change the clearance limit, functionally it would be dealt with the same way.
Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
Thanks for all the responses, just what I wanted to know.
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invertedattitude
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Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
Ok, well not to beat a dead horse here....
Tesox, I found the same info in the AIM, but it doesn't exactly answer my question, nor does it particularily pertain to crossing restrictions.
Where in the books does it say "Arrange flight to cross" is a clearance limit?
Tesox, I found the same info in the AIM, but it doesn't exactly answer my question, nor does it particularily pertain to crossing restrictions.
Where in the books does it say "Arrange flight to cross" is a clearance limit?
Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
To me it sounds like the two are getting confused. A clearance limit is the point an aircraft is cleared, now your adding a restriction at an intermediary fix...this doesnt affect the clearance limit, unless the restriction has been issued at the clearance limit. Basically the restriction to arrange flight to cross is no different than a CV or CC time for a proposed departure, your setting up longitudinal separation. The restriction to cross a point doesnt make it the new clearance limit, it is issuing an instruction which is a control instruction. If a pilot is unable to meet the restriction they have to inform you immediately, your instruction should be clear enough to allow the pilot time to adjust their flight, ie cross fix no later than xxxx tells them one thing, cross fix at xxxx or later tells them another...the loss comm would expect them to hold at until when you specified.
Clear?
Clear?
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invertedattitude
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Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
I understand the different applications, obviously. I know what a clearance limit is, and I know I'm not changing it with such instruction, but neither are the other controllers in their example, at least as I understood their post.
My only point is that I still haven't seen it written out to define what exactly pilots are expected to do with that exact instruction, I appreciate your effort to help clarify the situation, but you answered a question I hadn't asked unfortunately.
My only point is that I still haven't seen it written out to define what exactly pilots are expected to do with that exact instruction, I appreciate your effort to help clarify the situation, but you answered a question I hadn't asked unfortunately.
Re: "Arrange flight to cross..."
Ok, well...to answer your question specifically, it doesnt say in the books that "arrange flight to cross" is a clearance limit because it isnt a clearance limit, its a control instruction.invertedattitude wrote:Where in the books does it say "Arrange flight to cross" is a clearance limit?
Im getting confused as to what your confused about
