Petition for "College of Professional Pilots"?

[Widow]

You're right AuxBatOn, I did miss the sarcasm! My bad ...

Sidebar, can you think of a way to provide protection to all the low-time, inexperienced pilots - arguably, those who need it most, without making it a blanket protection?

[jeta1]

comment removed - time expired

[Sidebar]

Sidebar, can you think of a way to provide protection to all the low-time, inexperienced pilots - arguably, those who need it most, without making it a blanket protection?

Sure. TCCA could really help by reinstating and beefing up their surveillance and oversight of the industry, and by enforcing the existing legislated and mandatory Canadian Aviation Regulations! Re-staffing System Safety and getting them out into the field would help too. This WOULD be a blanket protection.

[loopa]

I don't think we should have a college program

We should how ever have a program similar to European systems; it works well there. But such system requires a much heavier emphasis on the "flying" aspect.

The reason any hobo can become a pilot is because it's not hard to fly an airplane. And it has simply come down to just that; flying the plane and not the challenging situations, and complex understandings of how the thing we're doing up there works.

Theory may be nice to know, but it's the back bone to anything you do. Throw the theory out and you have practicality; practicality is something that becomes a habit after repetition. And that's essentially the problem in north american aviation. It's too much practicality and not enough theory. High-school drop outs will not spend 4 years becoming a pilot if they have to work hard and hit the books hard; who will? The self motivated individual who truly has the desire to fly.

The only problem is that the self motivated individual in today's industry ends up eating shit after working so hard. Because face it, it's just the beginning of a very long journey.

We should have academy's that are in direct contact with the airlines. A controlled flow of professional pilot's should be put out versus industry demands. The others should be held in reserve or sent to become private pilot's.

If academy's control the in-flow versus the out-flow of professional pilot's, then the concept of supply and demand will be operated at its optimum and working conditions would be sky rocketing !

Formulating professional pilot college's will just increase competition between colleges and at the end, every body wants to become millionaires and not a single one of them care about the supply/demand curve.

Establishing ONE government funded Flight Academy is the solution; cause then there's no competition and during low supply/demand times, the government funds the academy.

[Sidebar]

Establishing ONE government funded Flight Academy is the solution; cause then there's no competition and during low supply/demand times, the government funds the academy.

I think there's a better chance of Pink Floyd coming back than there is of this idea becoming reality. Eliminate competition? Why don't we go all the way and consolidate and nationalize all the air operators along with the training establishments?

The government doesn't fund anything, taxpayers do. All government does is decide how much the taxpayers are going to pay and where its going. This is socialism at its worst. The government already wastes too many of our tax dollars!

[armchair]

Re-staffing System Safety and getting them out into the field would help too. This WOULD be a blanket protection.

100% in agreement, but the new wave of senior managers decided against it. The person leading NOTIP is a past director of System Safety. The last two DGCA's (not the current one), had a deep mistrust in System Safety because System Safety was actally doing internal oversight on what used to be known as Air Carriers in the pre-1997 TC. Most regional directors are past regional managers of System Safety, including Nowzek (OK Cat, sorry...), Desmarais, and Allan. Yves Lemieux in Ontario, often acting regional director, is a veteran of System Safety. Jennifer Taylor , Director of National Operations, is a previous System Safety regional manager and director of System Safety in HQ. My take on the take-down of System Safety is that the overall name and concept conflicted with Safety Management Systems, (too similar in name and mandates), and it's departure puts SMS as the top dog issue in TC vision. Individual functions done by the System Safety Branch exist somewhat, but will be blended into near-invisible divisions. High visibility functions such as CADORS, Minobs and the safety letter will likely continue to their high standards, but much of the rest less visible, such as data collection, risk management, stats, liaison with the TSB and other promotional activities will be done in the background. In a way, System Safety Specialists were the precursors of the up-and-coming SMS assessors, and in fact, many of those will have a background in System Safety. In a sense, we can never escape "System Safety", it's just a play in words.

[snaproll20]

Well, there is surely a lot to be done.

This College needs to be very aggressive with its public relations image. When the College spokesperson speaks, it must be ensured that Ottawa will run to the table to not only listen, but also to act. If you cannot demand that attention, the College will just be another voice in the wilderness.

I remember a man I thoroughly respect who went to Ottawa a while ago, as the Executive Director of an association of companies. He got minimal time with Preuss and the Minister to discuss some very important issues. He returned with very negative opinions of both them, and their lack of concern.

The College must kick ass. The College must kick ass very hard.

The time may come when the College needs to do what Cat Driver did: sue TC to make them do their job. It would actually be cheap PR and Media exposure.

Even though I don't now need the College, I would throw in a few pesos from my tequila fund to see it happen.

[Cat Driver]

The time may come when the College needs to do what Cat Driver did: sue TC to make them do their job. It would actually be cheap PR and Media exposure.

It can be done, however the person / persons who do it must be willing to forever be a target of the regulator because that is how they operate.

Being a target is not all that bad before they can really do anything to you they then need to be very careful....they made a few mistakes with me and that allowed me to eventually prevail and I am now fairly well insulated from any further harm from them.

Where you will suffer is from the industry it's self as those who you are attempting to change from non compliance to compliance will blackball you....then you don't want to work for that group anyhow, that was why you formed an association.

If you need to bring action against the regulator I'll do it for you as long as the reason is not only sincere but winnable.

The news media will go wild over an event such as that, they are like sharks if they smell blood in the water.

[Hot Fuel]

I guess it all depends on how deep everybody wants to dig into their pockets I don’t see this venture working on a couple of bucks per month “membership”. A pilot run organization for pilots, I can’t see a salary expectation under $100,000.00 annually plus expenses. How many employees do you envision working for this "College"? I envision another huge bureaucracy taking shape. How does everyone see current unions like ALPA etc fitting in or working with such an organization? Can’t see them jumping at a chance to dilute their revenue stream.

[snaproll20]

Yes, Cat, that is why the College would need 'untouchables' like some of us who cannot be intimidated, nor have reprisals brought against us because we don't fly any more.

[Cat Driver]

Yes, Cat, that is why the College would need 'untouchables' like some of us who cannot be intimidated, nor have reprisals brought against us because we don't fly any more.

Without us it will be very difficult if not impossible to bring about changes.

[Thunderstrike]

I don't think we should have a college program

We should how ever have a program similar to European systems; it works well there. But such system requires a much heavier emphasis on the "flying" aspect.

The reason any hobo can become a pilot is because it's not hard to fly an airplane. And it has simply come down to just that; flying the plane and not the challenging situations, and complex understandings of how the thing we're doing up there works.

Theory may be nice to know, but it's the back bone to anything you do. Throw the theory out and you have practicality; practicality is something that becomes a habit after repetition. And that's essentially the problem in north american aviation. It's too much practicality and not enough theory. High-school drop outs will not spend 4 years becoming a pilot if they have to work hard and hit the books hard; who will? The self motivated individual who truly has the desire to fly.

The only problem is that the self motivated individual in today's industry ends up eating shit after working so hard. Because face it, it's just the beginning of a very long journey.

We should have academy's that are in direct contact with the airlines. A controlled flow of professional pilot's should be put out versus industry demands. The others should be held in reserve or sent to become private pilot's.

If academy's control the in-flow versus the out-flow of professional pilot's, then the concept of supply and demand will be operated at its optimum and working conditions would be sky rocketing !

Formulating professional pilot college's will just increase competition between colleges and at the end, every body wants to become millionaires and not a single one of them care about the supply/demand curve.

Establishing ONE government funded Flight Academy is the solution; cause then there's no competition and during low supply/demand times, the government funds the academy.

I'm pretty sure that by "College", what is meant is an overseeing organization that monitors, advises and (maybe?) certifies professional pilots and operators in the industry, kinda like what doctors and lawyers have. They don't mean an actual training institution like the colleges / flight schools that are already established.

[Jastapilot]

And accountants... don't forget accountants. It's a form of self regulation. Peers holding peers accountable for their actions, and the companies they work for. Does that sound about right?

[Widow]

Sidebar, can you think of a way to provide protection to all the low-time, inexperienced pilots - arguably, those who need it most, without making it a blanket protection?

Sure. TCCA could really help by reinstating and beefing up their surveillance and oversight of the industry, and by enforcing the existing legislated and mandatory Canadian Aviation Regulations! Re-staffing System Safety and getting them out into the field would help too. This WOULD be a blanket protection.

Well, I'm sure not going to disagree with that!!! But I have less hope that TC will actually do this, than that a College of Pilots (Association, not training facilities) could happen/work.

[GoinNowhereFast]

Peers holding peers accountable for their actions, and the companies they work for. Does that sound about right?

I'd definatly support that.

Another idea is to start a professional pilot division of COPA?

[CAPP]

Most professional groups have a professional association.

They normally have some kind of mission statement that includes promoting the interests of it’s members.

This could include changing the way that schools produce new professionals by in effect setting the number of students accepted by schools based on forecasts on the number of jobs. These practices are standard in other professions such as doctors, nurses etc.. By doing this we could eliminate the situations like the one at Colgan in the US where young pilots can expect to sleep in crew restrooms because they cannot afford to pay rent to get a decent nights sleep. So that there are not a dozen pilots for every job. If it were not for the College of Physicians and Surgeons in every province in Canada there would be a heck of a lot more physicians and surgeons as the schools would be just pumping them out to meet the demand.

If you are a doctor from another country and you want to set up shop in Canada, you have to pass exams and then you have to go to the areas that you are assigned to and there is a quota system based on projected need for Doctors. An association gives us the power to do these things

Promoting safety by systematizing the way that pilots are produced would be a major point. Take a look around at the other professions. If you want to become an engineer or an accountant you go to a school, which is set up very professionally and is subsidized to the tune of 80% by the government. Quebec seems to have a system like this, but nowhere else in Canada does this exist. At a University you can get a student loan but not for pilots.

Promoting of safe practices and professional improvement. Self-explanatory.

Giving a united voice to speak for members to government, industry and the public on matters that are important to our self-interest.

Set salary standards so that pilots can expect to make a decent living in all aspects of the industry.

Take a look at how long it took Transport Canada to set up duty time regulations. This kind of thing could and should be handled internally by pilots themselves and then given to Transport Canada to put it into law. Pilots themselves are better judge as to what is best for them.

These associations are very easy to set up and cost very little. They only cost when you start to have paid employees. Most associations have a board of directors, which are normally drawn from members who have the spare time or interest in helping out.

Look, lots of places out there have unions, because essentially the employees feel hard done by. If you don't dance to your master's tune you can be replaced. By having a national Association or College you eliminate the need for unions.

These associations can be national or provincial depending on the nature of how they decide to set up. I suspect that in the case of pilots, national would make more sense as you reduce the overhead by having one association, therefore one set of basic costs. This would increase the membership numbers.

I think Transport Canada would welcome this idea with open arms as it would take the pressure off of them by having the actual people who really do the work and who have a pulse on the workplace and safety issues set standards and lobby for the good of the profession. Transport has done a lot over the years to promote aviation, but they have two masters; pilots and employers.

The ultimate goal would be that to be a pilot in Canada you would have to join just like other professional groups.

This would not be a union because there is no one to negotiate with. It would be simply a group who were looking after their own safety, and professional interests.

College BTW is not meant like a school, it is used to mean professional association that makes decisions on a larger scale like how schools for professionals will be allowed to operate, what standards, how many students allowed, standards for acceptance, discipline of members etc. Like the College of Family Physicians of Canada http://www.cfpc.ca/English/cfpc/educati ... lt.asp?s=1
As far as costs go there are ways of paying for things. By upping salaries of their members for one thing.

Unions no doubt work, but with an umbrella organization like a College, you eliminate the need for all the baggage that unions bring with them like strikes, cost, etc..

How about it? To me it's a no brainer.

[CAPP]

OK so who is going to break the ice and set up a website?

Then have somebody contact the current organizations, CALPA, COPA, Transport Canada and set up some kind of committees to flesh this out.

All the ideas on who, what, where, when, and why can be forwarded and funneled into the;

Canadian College of Professional Pilots CCoPP or CCOP

or the

Canadian Association of Professional Pilots. CAoPP or CAPP

[Widow]

There is a website being developed by at least one group who is working toward this goal. It will not be released until the road is paved .... but it exists, waiting.

[Hot Fuel]

If you are a doctor from another country and you want to set up shop in Canada, you have to pass exams and then you have to go to the areas that you are assigned to and there is a quota system based on projected need for Doctors. An association gives us the power to do these things

So in effect a new recruit would have no say in his career path, I have my wife and two kids living in YEG and wish to pursue a charter pilot career but end up doing crop dusting in Estavan, SK because that’s what the college decided was needed? Can’t see anybody having a problem with that methodology.

Set salary standards so that pilots can expect to make a decent living in all aspects of the industry.

There are so many factors that come into play when you talk about compensation besides simply an aircraft type. Region, market conditions, financial health of the employer. The notion that just because a “college” says so will make it so is a pipe dream.

Look, lots of places out there have unions, because essentially the employees feel hard done by. If you don't dance to your master's tune you can be replaced. By having a national Association or College you eliminate the need for unions.

That idea will garner more opposition from the unions than you will get from owners and operators. Your suggesting you can replace the unions, give up their career union positions to a bunch of pilots willing to work for free in their spare time…they will never sit still or support such an idea. Unions are big business and if you don’t think they will protect their business, jobs and way of life your diluted.

Hate to come accross as so negative but these ideas have more holes than swiss cheese.

[Widow]

I don't think a "College" would replace unions. It wouldn't be a bargaining agent between employees and employers. More of a bargaining agent with the government, I should think. It would serve functions currently not served as all ...

[CAPP]

The reason that it would replace unions essentially is that unions are in place because workers are in a weak bargaining position, due to the large # of workers (pilots) available.

Years ago the maintenance folks started up an association. They got together and made some recommendations on schooling and standards. This process was heavily influenced and I suspect financially subsidized by Transport Canada. I say this because Transport Canada held the Association meetings. They subsidized it in the sense that they assisted in the basic startup. Transport has every reason to help us out. Their mandate is essentially to promote aviation through safety. The Colgan crash (the worst disaster in 7 years) is a result of the current setup. TMP Too Many Pilots.

I remember when the AMEs set up their association thinking that they have got their heads screwed on right. Us pilots have missed the boat ...... up to now. The time has come to do something about it.

Now if you want to become an AME, you go to a school which is run by the government and therefore subsidized. You have to apply to the school and so you know before you waste a penny whether you are in and will likely get a job out of it when you are finished. The school has standards for acceptance just like every other school. The instructors there make a decent wage and can consider it a destination job. Also the teachers are there because they applied for the job and have experience.

I know lots of maintenance folks and they don't seem to notice the current economy as there are jobs for them.

[CAPP]

If you are a doctor from another country and you want to set up shop in Canada, you have to pass exams and then you have to go to the areas that you are assigned to and there is a quota system based on projected need for Doctors. An association gives us the power to do these things

So in effect a new recruit would have no say in his career path, I have my wife and two kids living in YEG and wish to pursue a charter pilot career but end up doing crop dusting in Estavan, SK because that’s what the college decided was needed? Can’t see anybody having a problem with that methodology.

I was referring to pilots immigrating from another country.

Set salary standards so that pilots can expect to make a decent living in all aspects of the industry.

There are so many factors that come into play when you talk about compensation besides simply an aircraft type. Region, market conditions, financial health of the employer. The notion that just because a “college” says so will make it so is a pipe dream.

Go to a dentist, massage therapist, doctor, accountant etc. and you will be presented with a bill that complies with their association guidelines. It's only a pipe dream if we are so "Chicken" as to do nothing about our current situation as we are currently doing.

Look, lots of places out there have unions, because essentially the employees feel hard done by. If you don't dance to your master's tune you can be replaced. By having a national Association or College you eliminate the need for unions.

That idea will garner more opposition from the unions than you will get from owners and operators. Your suggesting you can replace the unions, give up their career union positions to a bunch of pilots willing to work for free in their spare time…they will never sit still or support such an idea. Unions are big business and if you don’t think they will protect their business, jobs and way of life your diluted.

Hate to come accross as so negative but these ideas have more holes than swiss cheese.

If there are less pilots for the reasons I and lots of other people have spelled out in this thread and others, then employers will have to pay more to get who they want. That is simple market dynamics. The shoe will be on the other foot.

If pilots can expect to earn a decent salary and more importantly be comfortable with the fact that they have a reasonable expectation of having employment when they get out of school, then unions are less necessary. Who knows or cares if they would continue. Unions have a place and may very well serve or morph into another reason for existence.

[Hot Fuel]

Perhaps I’m missing something here; I’m getting the impression that some of you think this “college” can by- pass the unions and owner/employer groups and petition the government directly to force changes in remuneration, scheduling and hiring practices.

There is a snowballs chance in hell that the government will wade into that pool and strike legislation that outlines pay scales, scheduling or hiring practices.

Using the safety card I think it’s more likely that after a lengthy consultation process with the stakeholders a lobby group could make headway in the area of duty time and crew pairings relative to experience but make the government set out pay scales, establish pilot friendly schedules and get involved in private business hiring practices? Two words…never happen.

[Jastapilot]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_association
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associatio ... ccountants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Coll ... _of_Canada

[Legacy]

Looks like some of you don't give a damn about the future of a commercial pilot here. I wonder how many of you are the EMPLOYER.