question for ame apprentices out there. i know of a company who will be looking for an apprentice. i also know that they will be looking for a dockhand as well. my question is... how many apprentices would be willing to work for an operater that has a mix of turbine and round engines and does work outside the company one other types as well, be willing to combine the duties of ame apprentice as well as dockhand duties. the said operator would start the guy at something like $8.00/hr? if this offends anyone, don't flame me, i'm just the messenger. i am a pilot myself and know that this sort of thing is somewhat normal in the "newly licensed pilot looking for that first job thing", but wonder if it applies to the maintenance side of things a well.
i know the operator well and know that he rewards his personnel for hard work and is a great guy to work for. i just think the starting wage is a bit low but, who knows?
apprentice
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north of 50
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KISS_MY_TCAS
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I am not an apprentice, but $8.00/hr is pathetic. There are plenty of apprenti jobs out there that pay MUCH more money, so I think he might have a tough go of finding someone willing to work for a wage like that. IMO, the "reward" this guy should be offering for good work is a decent pay. He's only gonna attract idiots with an offer like that one.
Last edited by KISS_MY_TCAS on Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mitch Cronin
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North... it's been a long time since I apprenticed, and even now that sounds like the kind of job I'd much rather be doing than what I am doing, but $8/hr is nuts! I'd be thinkin he'll be lucky to get anyone for even short periods at that rate... likely never hold on to 'em.
Apprentice - Entry level Wages
North
As a Dad of a new apprentice, I can only say that the wages have to come up in the industry. The cost of College tuition in recent years is going through the roof. SAIT is now charging about $ 10,000.00 + for tutition alone. It cost him about $30,000.00 total for the two years.
At $8.00 an hour you can't pay back your student loans, let alone pay for room, board, car, tools, you get my drift. If it wasn't for the drive and dedication of young people entering aviation today, the industry would be in big trouble.
As Kiss and Griffon said, keep on looking, some owners need to be brought up to speed on the cost of education today.
As a Dad of a new apprentice, I can only say that the wages have to come up in the industry. The cost of College tuition in recent years is going through the roof. SAIT is now charging about $ 10,000.00 + for tutition alone. It cost him about $30,000.00 total for the two years.
At $8.00 an hour you can't pay back your student loans, let alone pay for room, board, car, tools, you get my drift. If it wasn't for the drive and dedication of young people entering aviation today, the industry would be in big trouble.
As Kiss and Griffon said, keep on looking, some owners need to be brought up to speed on the cost of education today.
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wingnut
Apprentice wages
Horseman I couldn't agree with you more. As long as young engineers are willing to whore themselves for these types of wages, the industry will remain in suffering mode. We do it to ourselves gentlemen. Pilots typically do this also to the point of paying an operator just to build up hours so they can have the "privelage" to fly. This is ridiculous, as long as we are all willing to do this, then organizations will stand in line to take advantage of the situation. I speak with 18 yrs in this industry, have worked all over the world, and see the same desperation everywhere. Think about what you are doing, on any given day in my career I've had the potential to destroy over 1000 families by a wrong decission, is that worth the pathetic wages in this industry? Align yourselves with good operators who recognize the value of your skills and bypass those who would see you kept below an unacceptable standard of living.
By the way I wasn't aware of these tuition costs, in 1984 the total costs were in the $8000 range. I honestly don't know how these young folks are suppose to make it these days, as the starting wages have not kept pace with the costs. Good luck!
By the way I wasn't aware of these tuition costs, in 1984 the total costs were in the $8000 range. I honestly don't know how these young folks are suppose to make it these days, as the starting wages have not kept pace with the costs. Good luck!
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Pat Richard
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agree completly wingnut.
The whoring, unfortunatly is not restricted only to apprentices.
I've been told by many in at this site that if I don't like the conditions in the industry, to leave it.
It only takes one whoring themself out, which is then used as an example by owners of what a good employee(their version)should be to others.
They are also used as leverage against those trying to make progress.
If there are people willing to work for that kind of money after going to school for 2 years, ther're idiots.
I hope they enjoy eating macaroni&cheese + the box it came in because that's the purchasing power they will enjoy.
And if I hear another reply about "raining on people's parade's",and "they just wanna work on airplanes" I'll barf. BS
To those accepting these conditions either get your your heads out your asses or get out of aviation. The sooner you're gone, the sooner owners will have no choice but to pay.
Pat
The whoring, unfortunatly is not restricted only to apprentices.
I've been told by many in at this site that if I don't like the conditions in the industry, to leave it.
It only takes one whoring themself out, which is then used as an example by owners of what a good employee(their version)should be to others.
They are also used as leverage against those trying to make progress.
If there are people willing to work for that kind of money after going to school for 2 years, ther're idiots.
I hope they enjoy eating macaroni&cheese + the box it came in because that's the purchasing power they will enjoy.
And if I hear another reply about "raining on people's parade's",and "they just wanna work on airplanes" I'll barf. BS
To those accepting these conditions either get your your heads out your asses or get out of aviation. The sooner you're gone, the sooner owners will have no choice but to pay.
Pat
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Pat Richard
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somedays i'm in a better mood than others(usually work influenced),and I guess the tones in some of my past post's obviously reflect it.
Truth is, having gone through the bullshit apprentice wages years ago, it's hard to accept the stagnation,and now the apparent degradation, of pay for apprentices. You would think going to school and learning a demanding field would offer more than unskilled labour brings in, not less. And on top of it, you get gouged for tuition. Carpenter's helpers earn in the teen's for crissake's!
As for the poor employer, who can't afford to pay more, boohoo,too bad so sad.You think they arent making money? have a look at the respective parking lots and see what owners drive vs. mechanics.Hardly a case for sympathy.
If they truly can't afford more, pack it in. Who need's companies that undercut standard paying(low wages already)operators already out there.
What result's is a downward trend in already low wages.
I know several people who have left aviation(appt. & AME)because of the fact the training/experience is recognized by other areas for what it is, demanding, and is desirable by other areas, who often offer better working conditions. So there is at least that bit of sunshine on everything we do.
I feel real pity on those who feel lost when they are laid off in this industry. If a person honestly understands everything about what it takes to keep an A/C and its systems serviceable, they should be well prepared take on almost any other field with confidence.
So for new apprentices, don't sell yourselves short. For things to change for the better, operators like floatplane Zeke are going to have to be left apprenticeless as a result of their shit employment offers. The more prevalent the "demanding work = appropriate pay" attitude becomes, the sooner mechanics wages will regain the positive momentum it had a few years ago.
Pat
Truth is, having gone through the bullshit apprentice wages years ago, it's hard to accept the stagnation,and now the apparent degradation, of pay for apprentices. You would think going to school and learning a demanding field would offer more than unskilled labour brings in, not less. And on top of it, you get gouged for tuition. Carpenter's helpers earn in the teen's for crissake's!
As for the poor employer, who can't afford to pay more, boohoo,too bad so sad.You think they arent making money? have a look at the respective parking lots and see what owners drive vs. mechanics.Hardly a case for sympathy.
If they truly can't afford more, pack it in. Who need's companies that undercut standard paying(low wages already)operators already out there.
What result's is a downward trend in already low wages.
I know several people who have left aviation(appt. & AME)because of the fact the training/experience is recognized by other areas for what it is, demanding, and is desirable by other areas, who often offer better working conditions. So there is at least that bit of sunshine on everything we do.
I feel real pity on those who feel lost when they are laid off in this industry. If a person honestly understands everything about what it takes to keep an A/C and its systems serviceable, they should be well prepared take on almost any other field with confidence.
So for new apprentices, don't sell yourselves short. For things to change for the better, operators like floatplane Zeke are going to have to be left apprenticeless as a result of their shit employment offers. The more prevalent the "demanding work = appropriate pay" attitude becomes, the sooner mechanics wages will regain the positive momentum it had a few years ago.
Pat
Pat
I can't agree with you more, the last issue of Helicopter magazine outlined the problem of impending shortages in the AME side of the aviation industry. I wrote the following to the editor, but of course it wasn't published.
Dear Mr. Carr:
This was an excellent article on the AME situation in Canada, your article was accurate and to the point. I am a parent of a recent graduate from the AME program at SAIT in Calgary. Several aviation companies have gone the extra mile to provide an opportunity for my son to begin a career in Aviation Maintenance. This included Summer employment while he was still in College, and hiring after he graduated. I believe that the industry is trying everything it can to recruit and offer employment to new graduates.
However, the current wages offered to College Graduates, are not comparable to other Trades, given the same level of education. It now costs approximately $ 30,000.00 to attend College for two years.(Tuition, books, tools, room & board) The AME programs are typically the most expensive in relation to tuition. Therefore student loans are incredibly high for students entering the aviation maintenance industry.
Entry level salaries are typically at $10.00 to $12.00 range for new apprentices. These wages may have been generous in the past but have not kept pace with the realities of today's education debt loads, and cost of living. Loan repayment begins 6 months after graduation, and the wages are currently not enough to cover these costs and live above the poverty line. The typical age for new AME students is another factor, (mid 20's to early 30's) many have come from other occupations, making considerably more money.
Perhaps your magazine could provide a follow-up article, outlining the realities of today's education costs in relation to entry level wages. This may spur the industry to increase incentives to new graduates, and this of course would bring the much needed new blood into the industry. The aviation industry is competing with other maintenance trades when it is recruiting new candidates. AME programs demand high college entrances prerequisites in math and science, but offers below average starting salaries.
The love of aviation is reason why most people enter the industry, however, at the end of the day you still have to pay the bills.
I can't agree with you more, the last issue of Helicopter magazine outlined the problem of impending shortages in the AME side of the aviation industry. I wrote the following to the editor, but of course it wasn't published.
Dear Mr. Carr:
This was an excellent article on the AME situation in Canada, your article was accurate and to the point. I am a parent of a recent graduate from the AME program at SAIT in Calgary. Several aviation companies have gone the extra mile to provide an opportunity for my son to begin a career in Aviation Maintenance. This included Summer employment while he was still in College, and hiring after he graduated. I believe that the industry is trying everything it can to recruit and offer employment to new graduates.
However, the current wages offered to College Graduates, are not comparable to other Trades, given the same level of education. It now costs approximately $ 30,000.00 to attend College for two years.(Tuition, books, tools, room & board) The AME programs are typically the most expensive in relation to tuition. Therefore student loans are incredibly high for students entering the aviation maintenance industry.
Entry level salaries are typically at $10.00 to $12.00 range for new apprentices. These wages may have been generous in the past but have not kept pace with the realities of today's education debt loads, and cost of living. Loan repayment begins 6 months after graduation, and the wages are currently not enough to cover these costs and live above the poverty line. The typical age for new AME students is another factor, (mid 20's to early 30's) many have come from other occupations, making considerably more money.
Perhaps your magazine could provide a follow-up article, outlining the realities of today's education costs in relation to entry level wages. This may spur the industry to increase incentives to new graduates, and this of course would bring the much needed new blood into the industry. The aviation industry is competing with other maintenance trades when it is recruiting new candidates. AME programs demand high college entrances prerequisites in math and science, but offers below average starting salaries.
The love of aviation is reason why most people enter the industry, however, at the end of the day you still have to pay the bills.
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Pat Richard
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That's a good letter horseman.
I've personally been with companies who offer the work experience program your speak of. You are correct that they are trying to do everything they can to attract new recruits.
Problem is, they do everything but pay fairly.The programs I witnessed did more to scare young people away, than bring them in. Over a period of almost 10 months, they brought in 7 senior high school students. Only 1 decided to go further(she went structures).
I did'nt get the chance to speak to all of them before they left(3 left suddenly before completing the term),but the ones I did stated there surprise at the work conditions,work hours,morale,and, you guessed it, lousy pay.
One said he was going to pursue flying while another was going to go into engineering. Not a great result for maintenance recruitment.
Companies pigheadedness about paying more to appt/AME's is baffling. They will try all kinds of angles,whining on T.V. about skilled labour shortages, not enough government money for training,etc, but they dont want to discuss their pay scales. Why the media, who caters to them, will not mention how poor the pay is compared to other trades, as a reason for most of the problem attracting/retaining skilled aviation workers, is also baffling.
The fact an owner is willing to pay more to have his toilet fixed than what he charges for labour rates to customers for aircraft service, is bullshit.
They are well aware of what tuition costs are these days(many of them are involved with the schools)but to them its all about getting more for less. There is also, I believe, a lack of respect for people who wear coveralls with nametags. I definetly had/seen the impression from higherups that we're lowly,overpaid knuckledraggers. They just take advantage of peoples excitement after graduating, and proceed to try and screw them. More times than not, they have been succesfull.
The potential for change is really going to be with the new guys. If they start to pass on what is currently being offered, owners will have to adjust.
The old crowd is the reason we are where were at. They've accepted these garbage conditions for so long, that its considered standard procedure.The new guys can hardly look to them for leadership and guidance considering the history.
It will take new minds in this industry to rekindle any movement in the positive direction , but at 8-12 a/hr, it will be hard to get them in.
Pat
I've personally been with companies who offer the work experience program your speak of. You are correct that they are trying to do everything they can to attract new recruits.
Problem is, they do everything but pay fairly.The programs I witnessed did more to scare young people away, than bring them in. Over a period of almost 10 months, they brought in 7 senior high school students. Only 1 decided to go further(she went structures).
I did'nt get the chance to speak to all of them before they left(3 left suddenly before completing the term),but the ones I did stated there surprise at the work conditions,work hours,morale,and, you guessed it, lousy pay.
One said he was going to pursue flying while another was going to go into engineering. Not a great result for maintenance recruitment.
Companies pigheadedness about paying more to appt/AME's is baffling. They will try all kinds of angles,whining on T.V. about skilled labour shortages, not enough government money for training,etc, but they dont want to discuss their pay scales. Why the media, who caters to them, will not mention how poor the pay is compared to other trades, as a reason for most of the problem attracting/retaining skilled aviation workers, is also baffling.
The fact an owner is willing to pay more to have his toilet fixed than what he charges for labour rates to customers for aircraft service, is bullshit.
They are well aware of what tuition costs are these days(many of them are involved with the schools)but to them its all about getting more for less. There is also, I believe, a lack of respect for people who wear coveralls with nametags. I definetly had/seen the impression from higherups that we're lowly,overpaid knuckledraggers. They just take advantage of peoples excitement after graduating, and proceed to try and screw them. More times than not, they have been succesfull.
The potential for change is really going to be with the new guys. If they start to pass on what is currently being offered, owners will have to adjust.
The old crowd is the reason we are where were at. They've accepted these garbage conditions for so long, that its considered standard procedure.The new guys can hardly look to them for leadership and guidance considering the history.
It will take new minds in this industry to rekindle any movement in the positive direction , but at 8-12 a/hr, it will be hard to get them in.
Pat
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KISS_MY_TCAS
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Excellent points gentlemen. Horseman, I assume you are an AME, and weren't quick enough to head your offspring off towards a different profession 
.
I got into this industry due to a passion for avation, and it has all been downhill from there. Thank God I did it at a young age, as it still allows me to jump trades before I get too old. One apprentice I work with (who's father was also an AME) got into it while searching to find his real passion. He left a VERY high paying job with the rails to become an aircraft apprentice at the age of 30. All of us on the floor wonder what he was thinking, as it seems so many of us follow a passion only to be stomped on by the current state of the industry. Tuition vs. income is an excellent arguement in this case, since I spent more on my education than a friend who is in auto mechanics, yet he earns more than I do without the liability. At the age of 25, I have only 6 1/2 years before my student loan debts are paid only because I cannot afford to pay more than the minimum amount every month on the loans, and the bank silently requests me to grab my ankles and grin when they take thier interest. There is no way in hell that my kids will be anywhere near aviation as a career.
I think it is about time that the AME associations across Canada start to push towards more professional wages in a trade as skilled and professional as aviation is. Any trade where your signature carries the weight of regulations and the law should pay far higher than what is currently going on.
@#$! CAMC for belittling the industry with pricks to cheap to pay for legitimite training, and @#$! TC for allowing the approval for those jerks to let it happen. I recently met a fellow that worked for CAMC doing approvals for certificates, and when I told him that the whole organization should be flushed from the planet for the crap it lands on everyone else's laps, all he could do was look at his shoes. He suffered a layoff, needed to feed his family, and took the job to get by. He feels the same way about the organization that I do (he worked with them for ~1 year, and got out at the first chance, and is still very respected IMO). Another case of an overtrained, underpaid professional doing what it takes to keep his head above water. This industry needs a MAJOR turnaround, pilots and AMEs alike. Without it, I will be bailing out within the next 3 years, and doing my best to keep everyone with an interest in it to stay away from it as a career. Let the industry hang themselves, they don't really need any assistance.
. I got into this industry due to a passion for avation, and it has all been downhill from there. Thank God I did it at a young age, as it still allows me to jump trades before I get too old. One apprentice I work with (who's father was also an AME) got into it while searching to find his real passion. He left a VERY high paying job with the rails to become an aircraft apprentice at the age of 30. All of us on the floor wonder what he was thinking, as it seems so many of us follow a passion only to be stomped on by the current state of the industry. Tuition vs. income is an excellent arguement in this case, since I spent more on my education than a friend who is in auto mechanics, yet he earns more than I do without the liability. At the age of 25, I have only 6 1/2 years before my student loan debts are paid only because I cannot afford to pay more than the minimum amount every month on the loans, and the bank silently requests me to grab my ankles and grin when they take thier interest. There is no way in hell that my kids will be anywhere near aviation as a career.
I think it is about time that the AME associations across Canada start to push towards more professional wages in a trade as skilled and professional as aviation is. Any trade where your signature carries the weight of regulations and the law should pay far higher than what is currently going on.
@#$! CAMC for belittling the industry with pricks to cheap to pay for legitimite training, and @#$! TC for allowing the approval for those jerks to let it happen. I recently met a fellow that worked for CAMC doing approvals for certificates, and when I told him that the whole organization should be flushed from the planet for the crap it lands on everyone else's laps, all he could do was look at his shoes. He suffered a layoff, needed to feed his family, and took the job to get by. He feels the same way about the organization that I do (he worked with them for ~1 year, and got out at the first chance, and is still very respected IMO). Another case of an overtrained, underpaid professional doing what it takes to keep his head above water. This industry needs a MAJOR turnaround, pilots and AMEs alike. Without it, I will be bailing out within the next 3 years, and doing my best to keep everyone with an interest in it to stay away from it as a career. Let the industry hang themselves, they don't really need any assistance.
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Guest
Well written TCAS.
I'd forgotten about that impotent organization by the name of camc.Not hard to understand why. I remember them being promoted as a national organization for ame's years ago.
But aside from seeing some stickers on toolboxes,I have no idea what they do. Honestly, I've never had a single conversation about them,with any ame, ever. They are very much a mystery to most maintenance people. I am going to guess that they are hand puppets for owners, and there work relates to their betterment.
If you guys can explain to me further what it is camc is purported to be doing, please post.
Sorry to hear(tcas)that you're planning on leaving in a few years,but,you're not the first, and certainly won't be the last. And it's completly understandable why you,and many other's, have come to that descision.It will be interesting to see how much of a trend this becomes.
As for steering people clear of aviation,
theres no real extra effort required. I find just giving a curious individuals honest answers is generally enough! Better yet, let them do the work experience route. That will make it perfectly clear.
Pat
I'd forgotten about that impotent organization by the name of camc.Not hard to understand why. I remember them being promoted as a national organization for ame's years ago.
But aside from seeing some stickers on toolboxes,I have no idea what they do. Honestly, I've never had a single conversation about them,with any ame, ever. They are very much a mystery to most maintenance people. I am going to guess that they are hand puppets for owners, and there work relates to their betterment.
If you guys can explain to me further what it is camc is purported to be doing, please post.
Sorry to hear(tcas)that you're planning on leaving in a few years,but,you're not the first, and certainly won't be the last. And it's completly understandable why you,and many other's, have come to that descision.It will be interesting to see how much of a trend this becomes.
As for steering people clear of aviation,
theres no real extra effort required. I find just giving a curious individuals honest answers is generally enough! Better yet, let them do the work experience route. That will make it perfectly clear.Pat
Pat/KISS
I went to the CAMC site to look at their mandate, I was also interested in finding out what they stand for. It appears that they shy away from pay and benefits, but they try and do everything else. I guess they don't want to shake up the industry too much.
And oh yea, I wasn't smart enough to keep the lad out of aviation, my oldest son went into Computer Technology and his starting wage coming out of NAIT (same entry requirments as AME program) was $18.00 per hour, two years later he is making $26.00 per hours with benefits and pension.
I have copied and pasted the CAMC mandate below, you would think part of their strategy would be to provide "recommended" pay and benefit levels for the industry:
The Canadian Aviation Maintenance Council (CAMC) is an all stakeholder, not-for-profit organization responsible for the human resources strategy for aviation maintenance and aerospace manufacturing in Canada. As the aviation industry's sector council, CAMC champions and encourages initiatives to develop the overall strength and economic well-being of the industry through the development of national occupational standards for skilled trades, professional certification for technicians, the development of curriculum and accreditation of training institutions, youth orientation programs and recruitment and retention strategies for the future.
The Industry
The aviation maintenance and aerospace manufacturing industry is composed of employers, maintenance organizations, manufacturers, suppliers, employees, associations, educators and training institutions, regulators, military and other government agencies.
The aviation maintenance industry includes general aviation, commercial carriers, rotorcraft operations, military, suppliers and maintenance repair and overhaul companies. The industry services, repairs, overhauls, retrofits and remanufactures all types of aircraft and aircraft components. The aircraft maintenance industry covers both the domestic market and international marketplace.
The aerospace manufacturing industry includes original equipment manufacturers (OEM), space products manufacturers, and manufacturing companies which service and repair their own products including the machining and manufacturing of complete systems, sub-systems and parts.
The Canadian industry employs over 100,000 workers with sales of over 24 billion dollars. With only about ½ of one percent of the world's population, Canada produces over 5% of the world's aviation output, making it one of the most important economic engines for the country.
Horseman
I went to the CAMC site to look at their mandate, I was also interested in finding out what they stand for. It appears that they shy away from pay and benefits, but they try and do everything else. I guess they don't want to shake up the industry too much.
And oh yea, I wasn't smart enough to keep the lad out of aviation, my oldest son went into Computer Technology and his starting wage coming out of NAIT (same entry requirments as AME program) was $18.00 per hour, two years later he is making $26.00 per hours with benefits and pension.
I have copied and pasted the CAMC mandate below, you would think part of their strategy would be to provide "recommended" pay and benefit levels for the industry:
The Canadian Aviation Maintenance Council (CAMC) is an all stakeholder, not-for-profit organization responsible for the human resources strategy for aviation maintenance and aerospace manufacturing in Canada. As the aviation industry's sector council, CAMC champions and encourages initiatives to develop the overall strength and economic well-being of the industry through the development of national occupational standards for skilled trades, professional certification for technicians, the development of curriculum and accreditation of training institutions, youth orientation programs and recruitment and retention strategies for the future.
The Industry
The aviation maintenance and aerospace manufacturing industry is composed of employers, maintenance organizations, manufacturers, suppliers, employees, associations, educators and training institutions, regulators, military and other government agencies.
The aviation maintenance industry includes general aviation, commercial carriers, rotorcraft operations, military, suppliers and maintenance repair and overhaul companies. The industry services, repairs, overhauls, retrofits and remanufactures all types of aircraft and aircraft components. The aircraft maintenance industry covers both the domestic market and international marketplace.
The aerospace manufacturing industry includes original equipment manufacturers (OEM), space products manufacturers, and manufacturing companies which service and repair their own products including the machining and manufacturing of complete systems, sub-systems and parts.
The Canadian industry employs over 100,000 workers with sales of over 24 billion dollars. With only about ½ of one percent of the world's population, Canada produces over 5% of the world's aviation output, making it one of the most important economic engines for the country.
Horseman
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Pat Richard
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That's what I figured. An official propaganda machine for industry, by industry. That's the reason they dont get involved with the wage controversy. It also explains the lack of interest/credibility given them by AME's. The're toothles/speechless where it matters.
I can really understand your displeasure horseman ,with this situation, as you have obviously personally witnessed two simalar paths educationally,financially,time, invested in training.And are able to compare directly and see how poorly aviation stacks up in return on the investment.
Pat
I can really understand your displeasure horseman ,with this situation, as you have obviously personally witnessed two simalar paths educationally,financially,time, invested in training.And are able to compare directly and see how poorly aviation stacks up in return on the investment.
Pat
Pat
Your comments got me thinking so I did the right thing and sent CAMC a letter outlining my thought concerning this matter and their mandate.
As the aviation industry's sector council, CAMC champions and encourages initiatives to develop the overall strength and economic well-being of the industry through the development of national occupational standards for skilled trades, professional certification for technicians, the development of curriculum and accreditation of training institutions, youth orientation programs and recruitment and retention strategies for the future.
I will let the forum know what their response is, but I don't expect too much except a form letter. I just want to know what their strategy is.
Horseman
Your comments got me thinking so I did the right thing and sent CAMC a letter outlining my thought concerning this matter and their mandate.
As the aviation industry's sector council, CAMC champions and encourages initiatives to develop the overall strength and economic well-being of the industry through the development of national occupational standards for skilled trades, professional certification for technicians, the development of curriculum and accreditation of training institutions, youth orientation programs and recruitment and retention strategies for the future.
I will let the forum know what their response is, but I don't expect too much except a form letter. I just want to know what their strategy is.
Horseman
well written
Just wanted to say thanks for the above posts. I am currently attending NLC and am in my first semestre. I know what I am getting into (have my CPL too). If I hadn't been bit by the aviation bug I would never have een looked at this back asswards industry, but things didn't go that way. I made $15/hr at my last job driving fuel trucks around and airport and I'll be damned to make less than that after going to school for 1 1/2 years. Just wanted to straighten out the whole cost of education though. Tuition at NLC for the 15 months is roughly $5000, add in roughly another $600/month to live you are looking at $14000, a bit of a fuge factor in there and I can say it will probably cost me $15-16000 for my 15 months of education. Steep, I guess so. Would be cheaper if I was living at home but I find it hard to believe someone would pay $30k for a 1.5 year AME program. I understand tuition is a bit more in Alberta but I am pretty sure not htat much. I looked into SAIT when I was checking out all the school. Buffalo Air in Yellow Knife runs a program and tuition there is about $800/semester ($2500ish total)...it's still alot cheaper than university. However no matter what you are doing after taking an approved collge program for 15 months getting anything less then $15/hr is really unacceptable. I only hope that I am young enough to see the day when this industry straightens itself out.
Cheers
Cheers
"It's a dangerous business, walking out your front door. You step on the road and if you don't your keep feet, there's no telling where you might be swept off to."
Klack
Glad to hear that you came into the industry with your eyes open.
Northern Lights College in BC has a very good program, and their tutition is relatively low compared to the remainder of Canada. As a matter of fact so is BCITs.
SAIT tutition is $4978 for the first year, $4513 for the second year, $1100 for books, and about $2000.00 for basic tools and safety equipment.
Add in Room ($3800 per year x 2) and food ($ 3500 per year x 2), they don't have a meal plan) , and that comes to about $27000.00. Thats pretty close to 30K and I didn't put in the extras that we all know arise at college, like you need a computer or else your shareing with everyone at the library at 3 AM.
I checked with some of the other approved schools across Canada and found that Holland College in P.E.I charges $19,195.00 total tutition for the two year course, and you have to find your own room and board.
You should track all of your costs over the two years, and it will amaze you. I know when my son went through and graduated last May, we were very happy that he was able to pay for most of the cost through savings and scholarships. But most of his classmates had major student loans that have to be paid back. Read TCAS's comments.
I wish you the best in the future and hope that you succeed in the industry. I only hope that pay and benefits improve for the new generation of AME, this in turn will improve the recruitment and retention and keep the industry strong.
Horseman
Glad to hear that you came into the industry with your eyes open.
Northern Lights College in BC has a very good program, and their tutition is relatively low compared to the remainder of Canada. As a matter of fact so is BCITs.
SAIT tutition is $4978 for the first year, $4513 for the second year, $1100 for books, and about $2000.00 for basic tools and safety equipment.
Add in Room ($3800 per year x 2) and food ($ 3500 per year x 2), they don't have a meal plan) , and that comes to about $27000.00. Thats pretty close to 30K and I didn't put in the extras that we all know arise at college, like you need a computer or else your shareing with everyone at the library at 3 AM.
I checked with some of the other approved schools across Canada and found that Holland College in P.E.I charges $19,195.00 total tutition for the two year course, and you have to find your own room and board.
You should track all of your costs over the two years, and it will amaze you. I know when my son went through and graduated last May, we were very happy that he was able to pay for most of the cost through savings and scholarships. But most of his classmates had major student loans that have to be paid back. Read TCAS's comments.
I wish you the best in the future and hope that you succeed in the industry. I only hope that pay and benefits improve for the new generation of AME, this in turn will improve the recruitment and retention and keep the industry strong.
Horseman
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Pat Richard
- Rank 8
- Posts: 904
- Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:36 pm
- Location: all over
Yeah Klack, you are getting a deal with NLC. They've been the tuition deal of AME schooling for quit awile now. It was one of the deciding factors in me going there.
The other was the awful rep that bcit had/has. That and they charged double for tuition.Regardless of cost, NLC's program is well recognized in the industry. I've never really heard anything bad about SAIT, and I've met some good people who came from there.
Im not going to start about wages again, i think I've been fairly clear, but you will be looking at the better part of two years to get back to $15 a/hr as an apprentice. And that's not me trying to be a pessimist, its true.
But, if like you say,you are ready for it, allright. Just don't settle for the shit job offers(see: top of page)that will for sure come your way. I don't think you will regret doing so
Pat
The other was the awful rep that bcit had/has. That and they charged double for tuition.Regardless of cost, NLC's program is well recognized in the industry. I've never really heard anything bad about SAIT, and I've met some good people who came from there.
Im not going to start about wages again, i think I've been fairly clear, but you will be looking at the better part of two years to get back to $15 a/hr as an apprentice. And that's not me trying to be a pessimist, its true.
But, if like you say,you are ready for it, allright. Just don't settle for the shit job offers(see: top of page)that will for sure come your way. I don't think you will regret doing so
Pat
Last edited by Pat Richard on Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pat Richard
- Rank 8
- Posts: 904
- Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:36 pm
- Location: all over
You know, I've had several of my tradesman friends ask exactly that.Workplace attitudes are generally people scared to to even hear the word, to rabid anti-union fanaticsm.
My personal experience in aviation has shown that there is a general lack of unity among AME's, with an almost "lone wolf" mentality prevailing.Perhaps the're cowed by threats from management, or were raised in anti-union envioroment.Who knows
But if ever there was a case study for needed labour organization, aviation maintenance is it. However, I don't think it would be completly beneficial to simply join with an existing union local. I have several friends employed with Air Canada. and the stories they tell about the general inefficency of the workforce are staggering. They use the union as an protective umbrella to hide under, and don't have to worry about repercussions. I know that this is hardly an industry secret, becuase when there layoff's happened a year ago, I was given instructions not to look at anyone who had more than one year at Air Canada."We don't want that type of work habit introduced to our existing workforce." was the memo.I heard of simalar instructions at other operators. It is sad in a sense,becuase one can hardly believe that all are like that. But thats the rep preceding them,and a lot of the blame can go to the union for encouraging it.
So I think what is needed is a new organization for AME's that keeps committed to the FAIR treatment of AME/appt's in the work place, and strives to attain wages/benefits deserved of the sacrifices in lifestyle,work conditions,and liability that most AME's endure.I would not be receptive to a common agreement including structures,avionics,etc.Unlicensed structures guys with experience often make more than licensed/multi endorsed AME's.
Organizing,speaking with one voice,would do much to improve our current situation.I know there will be some clown who will beak off with "if we go union,the company will close!".Newsflash- pilots,baggage handlers,cargo loaders,fuelers etc, have all organized. and gee, know what?companies keep on operating.
Pat
My personal experience in aviation has shown that there is a general lack of unity among AME's, with an almost "lone wolf" mentality prevailing.Perhaps the're cowed by threats from management, or were raised in anti-union envioroment.Who knows
But if ever there was a case study for needed labour organization, aviation maintenance is it. However, I don't think it would be completly beneficial to simply join with an existing union local. I have several friends employed with Air Canada. and the stories they tell about the general inefficency of the workforce are staggering. They use the union as an protective umbrella to hide under, and don't have to worry about repercussions. I know that this is hardly an industry secret, becuase when there layoff's happened a year ago, I was given instructions not to look at anyone who had more than one year at Air Canada."We don't want that type of work habit introduced to our existing workforce." was the memo.I heard of simalar instructions at other operators. It is sad in a sense,becuase one can hardly believe that all are like that. But thats the rep preceding them,and a lot of the blame can go to the union for encouraging it.
So I think what is needed is a new organization for AME's that keeps committed to the FAIR treatment of AME/appt's in the work place, and strives to attain wages/benefits deserved of the sacrifices in lifestyle,work conditions,and liability that most AME's endure.I would not be receptive to a common agreement including structures,avionics,etc.Unlicensed structures guys with experience often make more than licensed/multi endorsed AME's.
Organizing,speaking with one voice,would do much to improve our current situation.I know there will be some clown who will beak off with "if we go union,the company will close!".Newsflash- pilots,baggage handlers,cargo loaders,fuelers etc, have all organized. and gee, know what?companies keep on operating.
Pat
Pat
I checked on the wages for Junior and senior AME's within the Federal Government, these are union positions, non management.
Junior AME's (EG5 Category)with about 2 years experience after getting your ticket start at 50K and goes to 60K.
Senior AME's (EG6 Category) from 54K to 66K.
They are under contract renewal and will probably get 2.5% to 3.0% raise this year. I know a few guys in transport canada maintenance side.
All have full benefits with a pension plan, and overtime. Overtime, now there is a novel idea.
Now compare your non union situation against these numbers to determine how you are doing.
The previous discussion strings talked about the problem of attracting and retaining new AME candidates. This can't be done without discussing wages and benefits. Other trades people outside aviation, receive a percentage of a Journeymans wage depending on how long they have been in the apprentice program. EG: Starting at 60% of 50K or about $ 15.00 per hour. This is a whole lot better then the $10 to $12 currently being paid in aviation. The % amount increases each year within the apprenticeship until they receive their papers, usually 4 years. Seems reasonable to me, the trick is to get all of the non union companies in aviation to comply.
If you can figure that one out let me know.
Horseman.
I checked on the wages for Junior and senior AME's within the Federal Government, these are union positions, non management.
Junior AME's (EG5 Category)with about 2 years experience after getting your ticket start at 50K and goes to 60K.
Senior AME's (EG6 Category) from 54K to 66K.
They are under contract renewal and will probably get 2.5% to 3.0% raise this year. I know a few guys in transport canada maintenance side.
All have full benefits with a pension plan, and overtime. Overtime, now there is a novel idea.
Now compare your non union situation against these numbers to determine how you are doing.
The previous discussion strings talked about the problem of attracting and retaining new AME candidates. This can't be done without discussing wages and benefits. Other trades people outside aviation, receive a percentage of a Journeymans wage depending on how long they have been in the apprentice program. EG: Starting at 60% of 50K or about $ 15.00 per hour. This is a whole lot better then the $10 to $12 currently being paid in aviation. The % amount increases each year within the apprenticeship until they receive their papers, usually 4 years. Seems reasonable to me, the trick is to get all of the non union companies in aviation to comply.
If you can figure that one out let me know.
Horseman.
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L382Medman
- Rank 1
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:15 pm
- Location: botswana
overseas
I certainly agree with all that as been written, got my license 4 years ago and got me work overseas. Been working in shit places but at least I did not hore myself to anyone for shit wages. 
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Pat Richard
- Rank 8
- Posts: 904
- Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:36 pm
- Location: all over
Ugh! I m not doin so well horseman. But seriously, thats how it should be.
Wages for apprentices differ depending on the operator. I've never heard of a official structured wage plan for apprentices. Owners shoot low, and bag what they can(usually the limit).And they decide entirely what rates are paid.
Benefits, that usually goes like this; you get hired as an apprentice/ame, you must complete the probation period(3-6 months), if you make it, you get "benefits". This usually means anywhere from 40-70 dollars a month will get taken from you to pay for the benefits. So your reward for 3-6 months at around 10-11 a/hr is you take home even less. Sure they might give you another 50 cents or dollar more an hour if you are lucky.What a great deal. If you and other co-workers use these benefits with any kind of regularity, the company will increase your contribution or drop the benefits, sighting increase cost due to excessive usage.I've this happen more than once, where guys were sicker than dogs, but were scared to use their paid sick days.
Overtime pay,sorry, I mean CORRECT OVERTIME PAY. saying that group of words together is as bad as saying union. Besides the general shit pay/work condition issues we've discussed already, the other point most abused in aviation is the correct paying of overtime hours. I mean, my god, I've never seen so many angles tried to be worked to avoid paying workers what they are legally entitled to. That in itself is a topic for another thread. I think the general goal is for the payroll pricks to make it so complicated and drawn out, the average guy says screw it, I don't have the time. And the companies get away with it. I'm sure anybody with time at a non union job in aviation has run into resistance collecting what is legally owed to them in overtime money. They treat you like you're a greedy bastard and anti company.
You are absolutley correct in that the wage issue has to be discussed to try alleviate the attraction/retention issue for apprentices/AME's. I think this thread is one way to start. At least people, whether they agree or not, will have this issue in their heads. And judging by the number of views this thread is recieving, there looks to be a few out there with interest in this issue.
L382Medman; you're lucky. I don't know what kind of pay you were/are making overseas, but personal experience has shown guys don't leave Canada to make less. Any job tips from over there?
Pat
Wages for apprentices differ depending on the operator. I've never heard of a official structured wage plan for apprentices. Owners shoot low, and bag what they can(usually the limit).And they decide entirely what rates are paid.
Benefits, that usually goes like this; you get hired as an apprentice/ame, you must complete the probation period(3-6 months), if you make it, you get "benefits". This usually means anywhere from 40-70 dollars a month will get taken from you to pay for the benefits. So your reward for 3-6 months at around 10-11 a/hr is you take home even less. Sure they might give you another 50 cents or dollar more an hour if you are lucky.What a great deal. If you and other co-workers use these benefits with any kind of regularity, the company will increase your contribution or drop the benefits, sighting increase cost due to excessive usage.I've this happen more than once, where guys were sicker than dogs, but were scared to use their paid sick days.
Overtime pay,sorry, I mean CORRECT OVERTIME PAY. saying that group of words together is as bad as saying union. Besides the general shit pay/work condition issues we've discussed already, the other point most abused in aviation is the correct paying of overtime hours. I mean, my god, I've never seen so many angles tried to be worked to avoid paying workers what they are legally entitled to. That in itself is a topic for another thread. I think the general goal is for the payroll pricks to make it so complicated and drawn out, the average guy says screw it, I don't have the time. And the companies get away with it. I'm sure anybody with time at a non union job in aviation has run into resistance collecting what is legally owed to them in overtime money. They treat you like you're a greedy bastard and anti company.
You are absolutley correct in that the wage issue has to be discussed to try alleviate the attraction/retention issue for apprentices/AME's. I think this thread is one way to start. At least people, whether they agree or not, will have this issue in their heads. And judging by the number of views this thread is recieving, there looks to be a few out there with interest in this issue.
L382Medman; you're lucky. I don't know what kind of pay you were/are making overseas, but personal experience has shown guys don't leave Canada to make less. Any job tips from over there?
Pat
apprentice
Apprentices in Canada are doomed. Canadian aviation is going thru a stage right now where companies would hire tons of apprentices if they didn't mind not getting paid. Most employers are looking for experience but don't realize or don't remember that experience is something that is developed, not born. It's like how Westjet wants licensed M2 guys endorsed on 737-700s with 5 years experienced. I don't know if that airplane has been in canada for 5 years yet, so i don't see how someone could have 5 years experience on it with an M2.
These companies aren't even at the point of considering to consider apprentices unless its for example 8 cabbages an hour.
These companies aren't even at the point of considering to consider apprentices unless its for example 8 cabbages an hour.
AME/APPRENTICE - PAY AND BENEFITS -
Pat
I suppose that most people I come in contact with, are anti-union. I personally have never been a member of one, as I never worked anywhere that had a union.
I see the pay and benefits of those people working at companies with unions, and can't help but think that those benefits were fiercely negotiated over many years.
However, many non-union organizations have decided that they must pay at least union standard wages to keep quality staff.
Even the Canadian Military has an agreement with the Government, that they will "try" to pay their special trades, the Public Servant Union pay levels, even though they are, of course, not unionized.
The RCMP is not unionized (prohibited by law) and pays their Members based on the salaries of the average of the top three unionized police forces in Canada. Their Civilian pilots and Engineers are paid the public servant union wages, but are not unionized.
So I guess, unions have impacted some non-union environment over the years, by improving pay and benefits to those lucky enough to ride on the coat-tails of the lucky few.
Is union the answer to the problem? That's a hard one to answer, as it is a personal question that can only be answered by those in the industry, based on their individual working conditions. I personally would not want to be a member of a union, but that's my decision.
Knowledge is power as they say, and people working under oppressive working conditions should organize to fight back. I checked the WEB at the Alberta Federation of Labour (http://www.afl.org/need-a-union)
for information concerning unions, it also contains information on Provincial Law concerning basic worker's rights.
Whether your for or against joining a union, this is good reading material.
Horseman
I suppose that most people I come in contact with, are anti-union. I personally have never been a member of one, as I never worked anywhere that had a union.
I see the pay and benefits of those people working at companies with unions, and can't help but think that those benefits were fiercely negotiated over many years.
However, many non-union organizations have decided that they must pay at least union standard wages to keep quality staff.
Even the Canadian Military has an agreement with the Government, that they will "try" to pay their special trades, the Public Servant Union pay levels, even though they are, of course, not unionized.
The RCMP is not unionized (prohibited by law) and pays their Members based on the salaries of the average of the top three unionized police forces in Canada. Their Civilian pilots and Engineers are paid the public servant union wages, but are not unionized.
So I guess, unions have impacted some non-union environment over the years, by improving pay and benefits to those lucky enough to ride on the coat-tails of the lucky few.
Is union the answer to the problem? That's a hard one to answer, as it is a personal question that can only be answered by those in the industry, based on their individual working conditions. I personally would not want to be a member of a union, but that's my decision.
Knowledge is power as they say, and people working under oppressive working conditions should organize to fight back. I checked the WEB at the Alberta Federation of Labour (http://www.afl.org/need-a-union)
for information concerning unions, it also contains information on Provincial Law concerning basic worker's rights.
Whether your for or against joining a union, this is good reading material.
Horseman
