Ornge Pilot Pay vs. Medics Pay

[bandaid]

Yes we are an essential service.

[ipilot54]

Those wages are for “Critical Care” flight paramedics and basically, VERY little O-T. A “critical care” paramedic from out-of-province is not qualified in Ontario. A “level III” from out-of-province takes about a year to become just “advanced care” in the Ornge system. Critical care is longer still. Our “advanced care” flight paramedics make more than 6 figures but we do not have to publish that; private enterprise….

[donut king]

The CHL helicopter pilots flying for the ORNGE contract unionised a few years ago. Senior captains earning 104000 plus overtime now!

One can argue how much you're worth compared to someone else. The reality is...you're worth what you negotiate.

The CHL pilots went from 78k for a senior captain to 104k with their unionised collective agreement in place. And, they are still working for a private company (Canadian Helicopters LTD.)...not public servants working for the government.

I'm even thinking of going back to EMS in Ontario after this international gig.

ORNGE pilatus pilots are going to have to decide what they want to do for their future. All they have to do is ask the helicopter dudes who have made gains with their union. Think it's the OPEIU which represents pilots, especially in the States???

DK

[Pro]

The only way that pilots will ever have sensible pay is if they get rid of the shoestring school operations that keep pumpin em out. You have to squeeze the supply just like others who make the big money. Unions only sort of work. Like a bandaid.

Pilots should have proper schools where there is actual knowledge instilled in them. 'Magine that! having to learn things. Having to know a bit about physics and chemistry.

Having said that I know doctors who pull 50 hour shifts. That means 50 hours in a row! Catch ZZ's on the fly as it were. They actually work hard for their money! Their schools squeeze the supply.

[Pro]

The only way that pilots will ever have sensible pay is if they get rid of the shoestring school operations that keep pumpin em out. You have to squeeze the supply just like others who make the big money. Unions only sort of work. Like a bandaid.

Pilots should have proper schools where there is actual knowledge instilled in them. 'Magine that! having to learn things. Having to know a bit about physics and chemistry.

Having said that I know doctors who pull 50 hour shifts. That means 50 hours in a row! Catch ZZ's on the fly as it were. They actually work hard for their money! Their schools squeeze the supply and their schools are about 80% subsidized by the government.

I heard that the Co-Jane on an a/c (Dash that crashed in the US recently was making 16 G. Not sure if that is true...

[Cat Driver]

Having to know a bit about physics and chemistry.

AAAhhh so when I see pilots landing Cessna 150/172's and such on their nose wheels and skidding sideways in cross winds the reason is they don't have a clear knowledge of physics and chemistry.

I thought it was because of poor training.

[Pro]

The only way that pilots will ever have sensible pay is if they get rid of the shoestring school operations that keep pumpin em out. You have to squeeze the supply just like others who make the big money. Unions only sort of work. Like a bandaid.

Pilots should have proper schools where there is actual knowledge instilled in them. 'Magine that! having to learn things. Having to know a bit about physics and chemistry.

Having said that I know doctors who pull 50 hour shifts. That means 50 hours in a row! Catch ZZ's on the fly as it were. They actually work hard for their money! Their schools squeeze the supply and their schools are about 80% subsidized by the government.

I heard that the Co-Jane on an a/c (Dash that crashed in the US recently was making 16 G. Not sure if that is true...

To add to what I said....

The best way to get pilots paid decently is to create an association or whatever you want to call it. Like doctors, lawyers, accountants, massage therapists, investment dealers, etc. etc.

Then you have the association become the voice of the pilots. Then the pilots can decide what level of training and how many can be trained, the standards, etc..

I know some people who set up a professional association and they are the governing body for the members. They lobbied and got approval to become the national/provincial "college" for the members and if you want to practice you have to join up. They set rates and negotiate with the government as a unit almost like a union. When they become the voice, nobody can do what they do without the association's (member's) approval.

Right now Transport Canada is our version of an association in the sense that they set duty time rules etc. but I think that we should get together and do this ourselves. Become self-regulated rather than wait for Papa TC to do it.

One example is the "College of Physicians".

Honestly I believe that the government would probably welcome this kind of association, because it would alleviate them from doing it after the fact, as it is now. The current SMS system is a case of the government getting out of the regulating business.

I think that setting up an association would do more for safety and job security than anything else.

[Thinking]

The comparison between pilots salaries and medics is an interesting one. The medics who were listed in the original post are all Critical Care Paramedics, most of whom have been on the job for 10+ years. There are actually very few paramedics who make it to that level, let me put it into perspective for you. There are approximately 8000+ paramedics in Ontario, of which approximately 100 are working the CCP level, that is the top 1% of the paramedic world. So to those who bitch that medics make so much more than they do, can you say that you are in the top 1% of your field? (you probably also try and check out the guy next to you when taking a whiz, to see if you measure up there too ) If you were able to say that you ARE in the top 1%, I'm pretty sure you'd be doing something else than bitching about medic salaries.

[Ground Thumper]

Considering the level of training and experience required to qualify for flying those machines one would think the Ontario government would provide a more generous pay scale. I'm currently looking at rotary-wing training and the qualifications would take years to complete and several 10's of thousands of dollars.

I guess the adage "you don't get what is fair - you get what you negotiate" is appropriate. If there is a significant gap in the supply and demand for pilots don't expect to hold out for a higher salary.

Cheers,

[cyrus2121]

I am just curious where Doc and Cat and other people who say pilots shouldnt be accepting these low paying jobs found their first jobs? And how they got their foot in the door in order to move up to the wages and status they have now.

[Cat Driver]

I am just curious where Doc and Cat and other people who say pilots shouldnt be accepting these low paying jobs found their first jobs?

When I started flying in 1953 there were very few jobs available and lots of ex WW 2 pilots on the market.

I got my first job by working part time for Central Airways in the hangar and doing any other work they had available, I had a full time job driving truck to make money to keep flying.

And how they got their foot in the door in order to move up to the wages and status they have now.

It took me around five years from my first flight to my first job partly due to my having a problem with rheumatoid arthritis which made it difficult to walk.

However it eventually got better and I got my first full time job flying a J3 Cub out of St Thomas Ontario for a crop dusting company and the pay was very good due to the type of flying.

My status now is retired after having done most every job in aviation and having had the fortune of being forced to leave Canada by TC my career rocketed up both employment wise and pay wise to what for me was the best job in aviation which was being accepted into flying for the movie industry for Miramax.

For sure I worked for a lot of crap companies, but never for really crap wages.

Two things in my opinion determine your position in aviation, being in the right place at the right time and having skills the employer is looking for.

[Puddle Jumper]

Just a quick thought, but have any of you medevac guys thought of contacting the EMT's union to see what they think about their "bothers and sisters" being flown around by uniform wearing non-unionized flight crew?

Just a thought!

[Grease Nipple]

How about comparing your wages to a profession more closely related to what you do, like a bus driver or maybe an ambulance driver.

If you were flying Bill Gates around would you expect to be paid the same as him?

Be careful when comparing your wage to another persons when asking for a raise, what normally happens is the other persons wage gets cut.
Better to demand more money based on your own merits.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

How about comparing your wages to a profession more closely related to what you do, like a bus driver or maybe an ambulance driver.

Doesn't an ambulance driver have to be a paramedic with suitable training?

[Carrier]

Quote: “Just a quick thought, but have any of you medevac guys thought of contacting the EMT's union to see what they think about their "bothers and sisters" being flown around by uniform wearing non-unionized flight crew?

http://www.pprune.org/canada/385042-sho ... nised.html