That Elusive First job

[NWONT]

The question was asked, and has been asked on this forum a hundred times is " how do I get a start in aviation". A few opinions were offered. One was to put some flowers in your hair and prance around Whistler. I don't see how that would help you achieve your goal. Others suggest that right out of flight school you are now a professional pilot so act like one. Walk into your first interview with a long list of all the job related tasks that you absolutely will not do. Good luck with that. Another experience was brought up where a pilot worked two years on the dock and finaly gave up on his flying career altogether. Obviously this person just wasn't suited to this line of work. I feel that I am very qualified to comment on this because I have been there and done that. I think Randleman was looking for some real advice, not for someone to stroke his ego. I gave him what he asked for and related how it has worked for myself and many others. If you consider this off topic then you have me confused. Your suggestion that he should go to other countries just demonstrates what little knowledge you have of aviation and the world in general. How many other countries have you worked in as a pilot? I'm guessing none. I have worked in many so I guess my dick is longer than yours. Maybe you would like to tell us about how you have launched your carreer and a little of your achievements so Randleman and others like him can reflect and learn from it. Thats what this thread is about.

[sky's the limit]

I feel that I am very qualified to comment on this because I have been there and done that. I think Randleman was looking for some real advice, not for someone to stroke his ego. I gave him what he asked for and related how it has worked for myself and many others. If you consider this off topic then you have me confused. Your suggestion that he should go to other countries just demonstrates what little knowledge you have of aviation and the world in general. How many other countries have you worked in as a pilot? I'm guessing none. I have worked in many so I guess my dick is longer than yours. Maybe you would like to tell us about how you have launched your carreer and a little of your achievements so Randleman and others like him can reflect and learn from it. Thats what this thread is about.

What are you going on about? I realize this is most likely not directed at me, however...

The kid is 18. There is NO rush. That's the problem in aviation, we have an entire industry worth of people going hell bent for leather to get to the biggest, highest paying job they can, with precious few stopping to smell the roses along the way... But that'll open another huge thread, so I'll leave it there.

Second, I have worked in MANY countries - not flown over them, or stopped at an airport, but worked IN them, there's a big difference. Travel is a first class way to explore the planet, see what other people do and how they do it differently than we do - extremely important should you ever wish to work in a foreign country.

Anyway, why do all these things turn into philosophical pissing matches? The kid asked for some advice, and why can't we all just provide our perspectives so HE can choose hi path better, and spare the verbal jousting?

Anyway, there's a fire that needs some attention....

stl

[NWONT]

You're right, it wasn't aimed at you. The question was how to get started in a flying career not how to improve technique on the ski hill. The first season flying floats can be much more pleasurable and rewarding than bumming around. As you said, its up to each person. A while back I was talking to an Aircanada pilot who also flew out of Red Lake many years ago. He mentioned that during his float days he had taken thousands of pictures but since he joined AC he had taken only about five. Meaning that the most interesting and enjoyable part of his career was behind him.

[Randleman]

Randleman: Did you ever consider going off-country? Or you absolutely want to stay on the Canadian side?

OFF TOPIC: Just wondering.... am I the only one that thinks that the argument going on between NWONT and iflyforpie kinda looks like two religous people trying to convince the other that they've got it right and their view's better than the other rather than just be proud of themselves, their values and the journey they took to get there, which made them the people they respectively currently are? Also that this "my d*ck's longer than yours" contest is so off topic?
I mean no disrespect to either of you but... come on!

I have been recently thinking about applying to work in Maun, Botswanna. I am also American and in the process of getting my American licenses. I would love go to live in another part of the country to fly-i think it would be a great experience.

The reason I don't go travel is because I owe so much money, I can't afford to not work right now, and I would way rather work flying than work at a job that doesn't involve it.

[Randleman]

The question was asked, and has been asked on this forum a hundred times is " how do I get a start in aviation". A few opinions were offered. One was to put some flowers in your hair and prance around Whistler. I don't see how that would help you achieve your goal. Others suggest that right out of flight school you are now a professional pilot so act like one. Walk into your first interview with a long list of all the job related tasks that you absolutely will not do. Good luck with that. Another experience was brought up where a pilot worked two years on the dock and finaly gave up on his flying career altogether. Obviously this person just wasn't suited to this line of work. I feel that I am very qualified to comment on this because I have been there and done that. I think Randleman was looking for some real advice, not for someone to stroke his ego. I gave him what he asked for and related how it has worked for myself and many others. If you consider this off topic then you have me confused. Your suggestion that he should go to other countries just demonstrates what little knowledge you have of aviation and the world in general. How many other countries have you worked in as a pilot? I'm guessing none. I have worked in many so I guess my dick is longer than yours. Maybe you would like to tell us about how you have launched your carreer and a little of your achievements so Randleman and others like him can reflect and learn from it. Thats what this thread is about.

I appreciate your advice NWONT, I really do. You have the same kind of mindset I have towards flying.

However, I Wouldn't say that STL doesnt know what he's talking about (he's already proven that to me in another thread ). Theres nothing wrong with his advice to go travel-and honestly if I could I would, but heck maybe I'll travel to another country and work there! Who knows.

[NWONT]

My comment on working in other countries is simply this. Many countries demand that the job be posted for and preference given to local people, nationals first, before anyone else can be offered the job. Many of these jobs require much experience on a certain aircraft or type of flying such as floats, mountains, short unimproved strips, etc. Then the licencing must be carried out, this will include exams and flight testing, your log book will be gone through with a fine toothed comb by the civil aviation people. If you have an accident their neck is on the block. Your personal background will also be scrutinized with police reports and references and previous employers. The reason many of these jobs exist is that not many want them as living conditions could be poor, health risks, political unrest or wars. Someone fresh out of flight school would have a difficult time securing such a job. Which brings us back to your original question, how to get started. The thread right next to this one mentions a entry level job in Red Lake. The next step is yours. Good luck.

[Randleman]

My comment on working in other countries is simply this. Many countries demand that the job be posted for and preference given to local people, nationals first, before anyone else can be offered the job. Many of these jobs require much experience on a certain aircraft or type of flying such as floats, mountains, short unimproved strips, etc. Then the licencing must be carried out, this will include exams and flight testing, your log book will be gone through with a fine toothed comb by the civil aviation people. If you have an accident their neck is on the block. Your personal background will also be scrutinized with police reports and references and previous employers. The reason many of these jobs exist is that not many want them as living conditions could be poor, health risks, political unrest or wars. Someone fresh out of flight school would have a difficult time securing such a job. Which brings us back to your original question, how to get started. The thread right next to this one mentions a entry level job in Red Lake. The next step is yours. Good luck.

Yeah I am trying to figure out how to apply for that job, I can't find any contact info or people to apply to.

[skywardbound]

Yeah I am trying to figure out how to apply for that job, I can't find any contact info or people to apply to.

Position has already been filled.

[Louis]

If you have the right to work in the US, did you consider skydiving ops in the southern states that are open year round?
Some skydive oriented websites should help in that regard.

The license conversion with the bilateral agreement is quite straightforward and takes only a few weeks.

[Randleman]

If you have the right to work in the US, did you consider skydiving ops in the southern states that are open year round?
Some skydive oriented websites should help in that regard.

The license conversion with the bilateral agreement is quite straightforward and takes only a few weeks.

I am working on the license conversion. Quite frankly, I'm not sure if I want to move from where I am quite yet. I wouldn't mind waiting for something close by to open up, even if it meant not flying for 2 or 3 years (I am only 18 after all, I have tons of time).

[Flyboy_high]

I wonder if Doctors have a forum site like ours?

I agree live life; have some fun while you are young. But just remember folks some of these low timers have $$,$$$ of debt. So let’s be realistic in our suggestions. I would say take any ramp, instructor, flying position you can find but if you find it is not for you, don’t waste 4 years of like your life day by day only because hopefully it would soon be over. Your job is only one part of your hopefully long life. Enjoy it!

If you think 20-30 should be your adventure and fun days, not slave droning days. You might look back and think otherwise later- and was Wj or AC for 1 extra year worth it....pronbably not!

[properbob]

Hello,

I am looking for some direction, can anyone tell me where to start applying in Canada as a low time pilot with a company that would let me fly soon. I'm not sure if I want the docks or the ramp at this point but I am really open to suggestions. I don't want to work 2 years and then start flying as I'm not getting any younger.

Thanks!

[bravowhiskey]

With the way the industry has evolved, a low time pilot has no other choice but go north and work on the ramp or dock. You could stay in a city and get a instructors gig but if you eventually want to move away from that sorta thing and fly turbines your gonna have to go north. Bite the bullet and go north. It will be some of the best memories you'll ever make.

[mattedfred]

Research as many companies as you can. Search for information like websites, registered aircraft, locations etc. Try and determine where you would most likely get hired as a pilot. In my opinion, you are more likely to get hired single engine, single pilot, VFR, wheels or floats. Find out who operates these types of aircraft and which of these operators tends to hire low time pilots. I also wouldn't waste my time and money mailing or emailing a resume to any operator that I wasn't planning to call and visit in person.

If I were to do it again I might get my CPL at a local flying club then get my float rating and save the MEIFR for later. In my experience the guys with instructing time stayed in the right seat longer than the guy with a few seasons on floats and a fresh IFR.

[KAG]

I had the opposite experience; I worked the ramp for 3 months, got annoyed, did my instructor rating and taught for 1.5 years. I ended up going captain on the plane the same time I would have just been starting in the right seat if I had of stayed working the ramp. That company (voyageur) pretty much only hired instructors, and during that time (early 2000) there was tremendous movement in the industry, ended up with a very fast upgrade. I was lucky.
The point is there is no right or wrong way to get where you want to go. You'll most likely have to work the ramp, or do a non flying gig to get into the right seat. If you instruct, you'll still need to go north, but your wait in the right seat shouldn't be as long as you have (or are close to) your ATPL.


As Matted said, do a lot of research. I pored over the annual wings magazine with the company directory. I specifically targeted companies with singles to small twins. I spent hours, and a lot of money calling/faxing, driving. In the end it was friends, a tip, or dumb luck that got me here. It really is who you know, and being willing to go where ever.

The biggest thing is attitude. Not willing to do what is required, while keeping a positive attitude, is a sure way to not make it in the industry.

[toelessjoe]

Agree with both previous posters. Don't be afraid to shamelessly abuse the contacts you've made thus far. Every job I've ever had (including the ramp) has been through internal references. There's also a certain amount of being in the right place at the right time (i.e. "dumb luck".) The key, of course, is to actually be there. As for how long you'll have to work the ramp if you decide to go that route, that's usually 100% industry driven, not company policy. (People quit, people move up, simple math). Some companies do however hire outside their "wannabe" program when they want to hire someone with a little more time in case of a mass exodus within and they need someone they can make a captain in a hurry. (Known to happen in smaller companies when the industry is booming.)

Next question - are you broke? Because if you are working the ramp will get you employed right away, where as instructing will put you further indebt. And honestly, from my experience, ramping pays better than instructing. And as a bonus both will make you just as bitter and as likely to climb a water tower with an assault rifle in the end .

- Toeless.

[tester]

Basically, as a low-time pilot, you will need to go where nobody else is prepared to go and then, maybe, someone will take you into a flying job, but even then, the chances are that you will need to serve some time doing other non-flying stuff first, e.g. ramp.

Should you go instructing? Well, maybe, because it will get you some useful PIC time, but, unless you are very lucky, it will be all single-PIC and you only have to look through the job opportunities on this site to see that single-PIC doesn't meet the requirements of most jobs that are posted. Also, all the low-time instructors I know (around Calgary) are broke and have second jobs. Those that are in the 1,500 hours PIC and ATPL category are still trying to get their next flying jobs, with no success so far.

However, there are signs that the flying jobs market is opening up a little, so maybe there is more hope for instructors to move on now than there has been over the last couple of years. If/when the market will get back to how it was in 2007, who knows, but at that time instructors were being snapped-up by the charter operators so fast that it was difficult for flight training organisations around here to keep up with the leakage of talent going out of their doors.

In summary, instructing will not swell your wallet and won't necessarily get you the type of flight hours you ideally need to advance, but, if the market does continue to improve, you just might be in the right place at the right time. However, if you want the quickest route into a multi-flightdeck go where no-one else will go!

[loopa]

Every instructor I know has moved on at some point. Even the one who was being questioned for having 3500 hours in a 172 finally found a decent multi turbo-prop job.

There's ton's of threads on these boards between circuit pic time and ramp time. You will always have people who find one more/less valuable than the other. Maybe see if you can teach ground school or something, as this will probably tell you if you enjoy teaching; then perhaps instructing may be for you. Maybe see if somebody on the boards who works the ramp doesn't mind showing you "a day on the ramp" so you can see what some of the duties are.

Either way, you're paying your dues, and there's no easy way out of it. Everyone's been in your shoes at some point - this is an inspiration that DaveP from WestJet told me when I was in your shoes; "there's light at the end of the tunnel." So learn to enjoy the features of the tunnel, as you notice the light getting brighter and bigger - this includes the job hunting process. It truly is an experience! I traveled from coast to coast in search for my first job and didn't land anything. But the friends and connections I made were invaluable, and they have been such a positive influence in my current job. So I'll pass on what was passed on to me, there's light at the end of the tunnel! Keep your chin up, smile, and be yourself. Don't accept ANY job that's offered. Take it only if you think it's a place where you will truly further your attitude towards aviation safety, skills, and decision making abilities. If you don't think it will, it probably isn't worth your dime! There are a lot of operators out there.

Good Luck!

[flying4dollars]

as a side note. THERE IS NO CAREER IN THE WORLD WHERE YOU STOP LEARNING AS SOON AS YOU HAVE YOUR QUALIFICATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why is it that EVERYONE thinks that the fact that your CPL is basically a learners permit is something only found in aviation. YOU WILL NEVER STOP LEARNING. EVER. IN ANY JOB.

there are 3 groups of pilots (or armchair quarterbacks)on this forum
1 Those who say your CPL is a learners permit and you are no better than a non licensed idiot
2 Those who say you have a CPL you are a proffessional pilot and should demand to be a captain of a turbo prop right out of flight school.
3 Those who say with a CPL you are a proffessional pilot but never forget no one knows everything listen to those with experience and learn from them.

Group 1 and 2 are idiots

A CPL is not a learners permit, a student permit is a learners permit. a CPL states that the goverment has deemed you skilled enough to fly for hire. THat said you will have to learn every plane you fly. Every company will have slightly different procedures even for the same aircraft. Tricks of the trade and wisdom are learned through mistakes learn from everyone elses so you don't make them yourself. Do not sell yourself short. Work hard, but demand the respect you deserve for making it this far and for working as hard as you do. Learn the labour laws. Never allow yourself to get screwed over because you are ignorant.

Who says #2? I've never heard ANYONE say that before on here.

[jpilot77]

There is also some luck in getting your first job in this industry to be shure, right place right time or you have a friend of a friend or a connection.

[KK7]

With the way the industry has evolved, a low time pilot has no other choice but go north and work on the ramp or dock. You could stay in a city and get a instructors gig but if you eventually want to move away from that sorta thing and fly turbines your gonna have to go north. Bite the bullet and go north. It will be some of the best memories you'll ever make.

The North is a great experience, no doubt about that. However please don't spout out that it's the ONLY way to get your career going. I didn't start in the North, went the instructing route, then didn't go work up North, and lo and behold I'm a Captain on a heavy turboprop. In fact so far in my career I've trained fewer than half of new or low time pilots that have any northern experience.

You want to work overseas? It's a great opportunity to see the world and make good cash (and with a schedule that allows you enjoy your youth and travel the world in your time off), and who better to do it with than a Canadian company, with Canadian standards, and no need to jump through hoops any more than any other Canadian company. A list of a few companies who work overseas based in Canada, some of which hire low time pilots (with no northern experience):
- Fugro
- Sander Geophysics
- Regional 1
- TransCapital Airways
- Voyageur Airways

With an American licence, this list gets much longer.

I say, do both: enjoy your youth, but find a job that allows you to do this so that you're advancing your career at the same time. For some, this means working on a dock and getting to fish, ice fish, skidoo, drinking, for others it's ski bumming, traveling, surfing... Do what YOU want to do now. You're young enough that if you don't like what you end up doing, it's just so easy to move on to something else.

[nortont]

"With an American licence, this list gets much longer."

KK7, could you expand on the "American Licence" statement please. Are you meaning American companies hiring Canadians oversees or something else? Been thinking about overseas work again recently, Spent some time in Aruba had tons of fun and looking for more. (U.S. and Can. licences)

[KK7]

"With an American licence, this list gets much longer."

KK7, could you expand on the "American Licence" statement please. Are you meaning American companies hiring Canadians oversees or something else? Been thinking about overseas work again recently, Spent some time in Aruba had tons of fun and looking for more. (U.S. and Can. licences)

There are a lot of American registered aircraft outside of the US, and you require an American Licence to fly them. Caribbean is one of these places.