How long does a rookie stay a rookies?

[Blueskies]

I've been watching a few threads that refer to the idea of paying for PPCs.....time-building on twins/jets in the US, etc. I work in the Ops dept of a charter operator and we were talking about a particular recent thread that refers to a company where pilots are required to pay their way.

Funny thing is that everyone is of the same opinion......PILOTS SHOULD NOT PROSTITUTE THEMSELVES..... however, everyone knows that the first guy that comes through the door with a ppc/type rating has his/her resume go to the top of the pile. The reasoning: reduces costs and it's better for the company. Double Standard?

I know lots of guys in various companies where there is the same sense of the industry. Nobody wants to be identified as the company that prefers guys who walk in with a cheque in their hand. However, I know of at least half a dozen companies (well-known too!) that have accepted pilots within the last year who have paid for their recurrent/initial type ratings. In some cases, it's been guys who got a significant severance from their last job and they want to put it towards work instead of banking it. The logic of it makes some sense but the principle is up for argument. In other cases, it's a guy that doesn't want to sign a bond....the difference is, he doesn't get his cash back....EVER! And his salary is the same as the guy who is bonded.

I'm at the bottom of the ladder and I just don't get the double standards. For all the veterans out there.....PLEASE help the rookies in the door. I've worked in operations, loaded airplanes, fuelled, etc. I'm hoping that all of this counts for something....if not for the company I work for, but for the next company that looks at my resume. I work hard and am willing to put in 200% but at some point, that hard work needs to count for something don't you think? Or are we just going the European way and nobody want's to be the first to admit it.........

I'd really like to hear from the Veterans on this one.........For those of you who are considering my resume, I hope that my questions don't piss anyone off or result in my resume going through the shredder.

[Cat Driver]

There is only one solution to this problem.

TC will have to change the PPC requirements.

As it stands now nobody wins, and I defy anyone to show me that the PPC as presently required adds to safety...safety should be the responsibility of the Chief Pilot who is in that position to oversee this issue and the cost should be the resposibility of the company that employs the pilot...

...However I see nothing wrong with signing a bond that reduces to zero over a period of time..

Cat

[Pyleosnow]

When I started my flight training I new it would be a struggle to land that first job, and I took into account a lot of factors. However, having graduated I have had to add the terms Training Bond, and paying for a PPC to my vocab. Perhaps its my own fault for not doing more research. Anyhow more to the point, it seems like it is becoming a waste of time to work on the ramp and "Earn" your way onto the flight line, for some companies. When you could just get a well paying job making 3x's the money and buy the PPC. For example, my current job pays $21/hr. which will be 28 in 30 days, and i was recently offered a job working the ramp for $7.25/hr. Another opportunity has presented itself for sept. so I turned down this job. If you have 2 associates at company A and one pays to get himself an MBA or something is he then deamed morally wrong for this? My point is whos to say that someone doesnt work their ass off in another capacity to get ahead. you know the old addage work smarter not harder.

Having said that, I would never advocate this, or do it myself, but it does seem to be the quickest way to getting ahead, and after all thats what 90% of the pilots are trying to do. I understand the fact that you may be creating a bad name for yourself, but when it comes down to it the Air Canada's of the world are probably going to hire on hours, and not if you put your time in on the ramp. Unfortuneately the more and more this happens i think it will become more common place because it just makes good business sense from an owners point of view.

[Blueskies]

Pyleosnow:

Is it really that 90% of pilots are trying to get ahead and so they are resorting to paying for PPCs/type ratings or is becoming the "unspoken" norm that no one wants to come out and say but is happening everywhere.

As a consequence of this train of thought, then why don't we have specific "rating-style" certifications to fly bird-dog or fire-spotting or surveying, etc. If it's becoming an integral part of the job-hunt and a requirement to even have your resume looked at, why do we see so many posts advising newcomers to hit the ramp and prove yourself or work your way up in Ops, baggage, etc. Everyone says a basic commercial license won't get you anywhere and the advice is always "work hard and get noticed".

The point I'm trying to make is that is it still work that gets noticed or is that an idealistic view of the environment we work in. Does it help to justify the fierce competition for entry-level jobs and does it work towards deciding how movement up the ladder will occur?

[Pyleosnow]

The question whether hard work will still get you noticed and in a position to move up the ladder, I would assume at many companies yes. But the recent thread about somebody waking in off the street and basically buying a job has to make you wonder if its worth if to slug it out on the ramp for one to two years to prove yourself, only to see someone else walk in off the street and lay down 15 k for a job. Is this person more deserving of the job of course not.

I do know of a company who promoted someone to the flight line within 3 mos because he worked hard and figured out a way for the co. to make more money. Wether its becoming the unspoken norm pay for ppc's its impossible for me to say, but it is a little disheartening to know that 15k from someone off the street, seems to be more important to operators than loyalty and hard work. However, I guess the loyalty thing is a two way street, in that many pilots will jump to that better job if avaliable. Unfortunately the problem is not only here to stay, but appears to be growing.

[Jaques Strappe]

I don't know why people think that a PPC in a HO is going to get them that job. Anyone can buy a PPC but as a CP, would you really take some unknown wonder with bugger all in his logbook just because he bought a HO PPC? So he has 5 hours in a HO, big deal.

You can train any idiot to fly but you can't train an attitude. ( Westjet, prime example) When I was a CP, I used to get hassled from the owner to only hire type rated guys. Well for anyone with a type rating, it is a lateral move and they usually leave soon enough. Besides, you still need to do training for your own peticular operation.

I had a bet with the boss one day and hired a guy with the minimum time required but who was always making it known how much he wanted the job. He turned out to be the most loyal, honest and hard working pilot we had and stayed with the company until he got a job at the airlines.

PPC..................means nothing.

[Benwa]

But you only did it once... Why ?

[Jaques Strappe]

He was the last guy I hired and trained. Shortly afterwards, I went to the airlines. I did win the bet however and after 15 years, the boss and I still meet up for beers. He agrees, that it paid off to hire a guy who just really wanted to be there.

[Blueskies]

It's funny that you mention a HO.

What I see happens with/from the more "seasoned" pilots. I'm talking about guys with 2000-3000 hrs turbine doing for a jet gig. The same still goes for a guy trying to get into a turbine from piston.

-: Not really trying to piss off anyone.....just curious since my own future seems so bleak

[Benwa]

He agrees, that it paid off to hire a guy who just really wanted to be there.

I sure wish we saw more of that !

[Jaques Strappe]

I only use the HO as an example. We were operating MU-2s at the time.

But all the shit about "turbine time" "jet time" " glass time " is a load of crap. Things change as you get into bigger and faster stuff sure, but it isn't rocket science. Whether the engines are powered by rubber bands or nuclear reactors, we all do the same thing. Flying pistons requires much more finesse.

The attitude indicator can be a vacuum gyro or it can be presented in a nice colour flat screen LCD, the objective of keeping level in cloud is still the same. FMS? once you have figured out how to stop your VCR from flashing 12 noon all the time, you can figure this out and when you do, no more having to figure out your decent profile. If you should screw it up, no worries, close the taps, pull out the boards and decend at 330KIAS. Not many profiles you can't recover from. Try doing that in a HO on a dark and dirty night.

Attitude is what employers should be looking for. The right one will work for you, the wrong will kill you, regardless of what you fly.

[Cat Driver]

Jaques Strappe is one of the few here who understands the subject.

And if you wish to understand why you get bent over the barrel by the industry here is a little suggestion.

Go to Google and get the ATAC web site.

Read it and note who makes the decisions there.

Write to the guy in charge of this part of aviation and tell him that there is a big debate here about PPC's.

Tell him that . . suggested that you ask him if ATAC can lobby TC to change the PPC requirements to remove this anchor from around your necks.

The guy to contact is in charge of flight training and small charter airplanes.

Post his answer here.

Or better yet see if you can get him to contribute to the discussion here.

Cat