Emotions

No_Delay · Post by **No_Delay** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:42 pm

I would estimate 1 in 4 pilots get passive aggressive if given a vector for spacing.
Why do they take it personal? A lot of things are happening behind the scenes!

Big Pistons Forever · Post by **Big Pistons Forever** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:46 pm

No_Delay wrote:I would estimate 1 in 4 pilots get passive aggressive if given a vector for spacing.
Why do they take it personal? A lot of things are happening behind the scenes!

I would estimate 1 in 4 controllers get passive aggressive if you ask them for a direct routing. Why do they take it personally ? A lot of things are happening behind the scenes !

Flybabe · Post by **Flybabe** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:18 pm

No_Delay · Post by **No_Delay** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:22 pm

Why not file direct?

I've had a corporate type american file CYVR direct CYYZ.
Guess what it was late at night and he got it!

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:34 pm

On second thought, what I wrote wasn't that funny.

D5GRVTY · Post by **D5GRVTY** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:45 pm

I'll answer 100% politely on the radio, but I'm not happy to taking the vector. Why? I understand the need to build spacing, but why not do it a bit further back with a speed restriction? Flying out into the middle of nowhere is just plain ole inefficient.

paydaymayday · Post by **paydaymayday** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:18 am

It don't bother me none. I fly as efficiently as I can for my boss... if I get a vector, I can't control that, plus I get more air time. Unlike some crews I fly with, I still actually like my job and like flying. Rah......jah!

Rubberbiscuit · Post by **Rubberbiscuit** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:56 am

Behind sched? Last leg, want to get home?

There is also the underlying fact that we as pilots don't like to be told how to fly our airplane and some feel they are being told by ATC. This is not the case of course as ATC's job is merely to keep legal separation and trafic flowing at the same time.

marktheone · Post by **marktheone** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:11 am

It might have something to do with NavCan's incredible lack of efficiency?

Pratt X 3 · Post by **Pratt X 3** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:04 am

"Its all good. Time in the logbook and money in the bank!"

Big Pistons Forever · Post by **Big Pistons Forever** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:26 am

What I don't understand is how controllers know to only give me vectors for spacing when I am running late and desperately have to pee

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:35 am

In today's uber-fuel conscious environment it's possible they just don't have much gas to play with. The CAR's minimum required fuel for domestic no-alternate IFR flight leaves almost nothing extra beyond A to B direct with no screwing around.

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:45 am

Rockie wrote:In today's uber-fuel conscious environment it's possible they just don't have much gas to play with. The CAR's minimum required fuel for domestic no-alternate IFR flight leaves almost nothing extra beyond A to B direct with no screwing around.

Who is flying around no Alternate IFR in Airspace that you would be given a Vector?

No_Delay wrote:Why not file direct?

I've had a corporate type american file CYVR direct CYYZ.
Guess what it was late at night and he got it!

late night is one thing I would routinely get 1400NM Directs however during the day don't even bother asking, as well the published preferred routes are fairly standard.

natej · Post by **natej** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:52 am

marktheone wrote:It might have something to do with NavCan's incredible lack of efficiency?

Yeah, who needs spacing anyways?? Just come and land as you all please, we'll just provide wind from now on.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:27 am

. wrote:Who is flying around no Alternate IFR in Airspace that you would be given a Vector?

Air Canada for one. Don't know if Westjet does that sort of thing.

Although Air Canada doesn't do it, it is also within the CAR's to fly IFR without carrying any contingency fuel either. That means it is perfectly legal to takeoff with just enough fuel to fly to destination along the flight planned route and altitude, carry out an approach, a missed approach and hold for 30 minutes at 1500 ft. If anybody actually does that you can see why taking even a small vector off your flightplan could cause some stress.

But, perfectly legal and therefore safe as far as Transport Canada is concerned.

niss · Post by **niss** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:51 am

As long as I keep taking my Prozium emotions are not an issue.

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:51 pm

well call me educated then, I had no Idea Mapleflot did that. My only experience with no Alternate IFR was up in the Arctic and the forecast pretty much had to be severe clear to use it.

LuckyPilot · Post by **LuckyPilot** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:34 pm

Not to hijack the thread, but AC has a new fuel policy inplace that makes the fuel carried even tighter. I've seen OFP with fuel as low as 1300 kg after landing. It makes you watch your destination even closer for any sort of delays, it will force people to land short and get gas.

Toronto being one of the worse for enroute delays, going over Montreal they ask you to do best forward speed, next sectors request, soon as you get onto YYZ, they ask you to slow to min clean.

MichaelP · Post by **MichaelP** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:46 pm

I definately had such an emotion an hour ago when I was told to go to Blackie Spit from the Alex Fraser bridge....
But it was alright in the end with a turn onto finals 25 given just before Delta.

I wonder whether 'vectors' would have given a different outcome to the Navajo accident a short while back?

IFRATC · Post by **IFRATC** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:52 pm

Sometimes you are told to go best forward to close up a gap in spacing so that the next three or four of your brethern don't pee there pants because they are at 250 kts for 100 plus miles.
Vectoring for space is not two aircraft dimensional. We might have 10 or 12 in sequence but #5 and #8 and 9 might be the only ones that need a vector. Speed control is nearly always initiated first. Also, you are not all flying at the same altitude. Every aircraft leaves the top of decent at different points prior to destination. We factor alot more variables into spacing than merely just the aircraft you are following. You might be #6 in sequence but you are following #3. Depending on runway config. and bedpost crossing speeds we have to factor in whats called the "accordian effect" as well. Running bare minimum spacing when the guy you are following starts to dirty up to slow for 210kts just doesn't work. We lose that 10 mile gap pretty quickly. Arrival then has every right to cut us off. We like having to vector as much as you guys like flying them. In high density airports its just a given.
Remember this though, "speeding" guys up in sequence is used as well as slowing guys down to maintain gaps.

IFRATC

flying4dollars · Post by **flying4dollars** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:22 am

Big Pistons Forever wrote:What I don't understand is how controllers know to only give me vectors for spacing when I am running late and desperately have to pee

this gave me a good chuckle

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