N922XX Cirrus SR-22 G3-X Turbo nosedives into runway . . .

[vova_k]

What should I read....Cirrus's little web site blurb that says " few 4 place aircraft have been tested for spins ". That is total BS for starters so why believe the rest of their spiel. Normal catagory single engine planes have to demonstrate a recoverey from a one turn spin to be certified. Cirrus uses a chute to recover.

Where exactly did you find this on Cirrus web-site, could you, please, provide the link ?

And SR2x design had a parachute from the VERY beginning, so they decided not to do spin testing. It wasn't poor spin characteristics patch, as some people repeat !

[AEROBAT]

What should I read....Cirrus's little web site blurb that says " few 4 place aircraft have been tested for spins ". That is total BS for starters so why believe the rest of their spiel. Normal catagory single engine planes have to demonstrate a recoverey from a one turn spin to be certified. Cirrus uses a chute to recover.

Where exactly did you find this on Cirrus web-site, could you, please, provide the link ?

And SR2x design had a parachute from the VERY beginning, so they decided not to do spin testing. It wasn't poor spin characteristics patch, as some people repeat !

Google " why cirrus.com." go about half way down the page and read the article "Why Cirrus works so hard at spin prevention". In there they state few four place planes are spin tested. As I said before that is BS. To get a Normal Catagory certification from the FAA you have to demonstrate a recovery from a one turn spin. Just because a plane is placarded " Spins Prohibited" doesn't mean it wasn't tested.

Have you ever actually seen one? When you talk about " patches" to make the plane safe look at the wing. Instead of having a gradual twist for washout they change the AOI mid span. Hey it's a free country go buy one. It's not rocket science making a safe airplane, Beechcraft even had a aerobatic certified Bonanza.

[vova_k]

Have you ever actually seen one?

Just once or twice... I used to own one for a couple of years, 300+ hrs...

And some time ago I have done 47 intentional spin entries in SR22 G2 for a test/research programm...

[AEROBAT]

Were the spin recoveries any problem?

[vova_k]

Were the spin recoveries any problem?

Those flights were in very controlled environment, and results are not for general flying public. I’m not going to disclosure this information – don’t want someone try such things at their airplane...

Anyway – I don’t believe regular non-aerobatic pilot (even experienced one, but without aerobatic background) can recover any airplane from unintentional spin. Doesn’t matter, what type of an airplane...

[AEROBAT]

Were the spin recoveries any problem?

Those flights were in very controlled environment, and results are not for general flying public. I’m not going to disclosure this information – don’t want someone try such things at their airplane...

Anyway – I don’t believe regular non-aerobatic pilot (even experienced one, but without aerobatic background) can recover any airplane from unintentional spin. Doesn’t matter, what type of an airplane...

Must have been a frightening exsperience for for you, it even f##### up your grammer

[vova_k]

Must have been a frightening exsperience for for you, it even f##### up your grammer

English is not my first (not even second) language. If you can speak/write in 3 languages perfectly, I envy you.

[AEROBAT]

Must have been a frightening exsperience for for you, it even f##### up your grammer

English is not my first (not even second) language. If you can speak/write in 3 languages perfectly, I envy you.

Hey I appologize, I should not be so sarcastic. It seems weird that you would do all these spin recovery tests, and talk about them, then say you can't divulge any info. Why do you think non-acro pilots can't recover from an unintentional spin? I thought that was the reason people practiced spins.

[vova_k]

It seems weird that you would do all these spin recovery tests, and talk about them, then say you can't divulge any info.

Mostly, because I’m afraid any specific information can/will encourage pilots without proper training/skills to do stupid things. And I don’t think this information can be useful for them. Why ? See below...

Why do you think non-acro pilots can't recover from an unintentional spin? I thought that was the reason people practiced spins.

OK, someone can practice certain martial arts move. How many times one has to do that to become proficient enough to use this move in real life, unexpected situation ? Even if you do it perfectly with your coach, things can look very different on dark street. Do I need to explain further, or am I clear ?

And, of course, this is my own personal opinion, anyone can think differently.

[AEROBAT]

I have had a few unintentional spins, doing hammerheads comes to mind, and I never had a problem and I wouldn't consider myself a very experienced acro pilot.

However you must agree Cirrus's statement that few 4 place aircraft are spin tested brings into question the validity of the rest of their advertising.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Mostly, because I’m afraid any specific information can/will encourage pilots without proper training/skills to do stupid things.

I'm with you there, flying airplanes is really not all that difficult so it attracts some of the most mentally challenged people in society.

You are correct not to explain how the spin testing went because sure as hell some moron will go out and try and duplicate it.

" Spins prohibited " is a challenge to some.

[vova_k]

I have had a few unintentional spins, doing hammerheads comes to mind, and I never had a problem and I wouldn't consider myself a very experienced acro pilot.

OK, unintentional spins during aerobatic - it's just a part of experience, you are prepared (and kind of expecting them), and it's irrelevant to our discussion. I was talking about completely different thing - say, someone in level flight, looking for an airfield and forgot about airspeed. If pilot allowed this to happen - no way to recover. Much more chances to pull the chute... You should agree, we are discussing this scenario...

However you must agree Cirrus's statement that few 4 place aircraft are spin tested brings into question the validity of the rest of their advertising.

I can't comment this - can be much more complicated, than seems.

[AEROBAT]

We could argue back and forth forever but the safety record sure doesn't look so hot, 140 accidents and 40+ fatalities. In my opinion, and as you say it is just an opinion, the plane just doesn't look that high performance/difficult to fly. Maybe it is just low time pilots who are giving it a bad record.

[Finn47]

I would say it´s the unintentional spins at low altitude that inexperienced pilots can´t recover from. Otherwise, given enough altitude, no reason why recovery would be impossible if you´ve heard about the correct technique even once. OK, make it twice.

[N2]

I'm with you there, flying airplanes is really not all that difficult so it attracts some of the most mentally challenged people in society.

I resemble that remark and would you like a large fry with your burger?

[MichaelP]

Anyway – I don’t believe regular non-aerobatic pilot (even experienced one, but without aerobatic background) can recover any airplane from unintentional spin. Doesn’t matter, what type of an airplane...

This is not true IMHO as I have seen several unintentional spin recoveries from low level and even had one myself but at a safe level!

Mostly, because I’m afraid any specific information can/will encourage pilots without proper training/skills to do stupid things.

I think of this as an argument against putting a parachute recovery system in an aeroplane!

The Cirrus is a very nice aeroplane, it is strong and very efficient, but it is not forgiving as a Cessna 172 or Piper PA28 is forgiving.
So I understand Cirrus is interested in ensuring its pilots get proper training in the type.
But in this they have failed.

Novice pilots are always going to be behind the aircraft whatever they are flying.
At 80 knots this is often forgiven, at 140 knots this is not.

If the average pilot in Canada takes 70 hours to get a PPL in a Cessna, then perhaps the SR22 student pilot needs 150 hours to be safe.

Does this accident not sound like turning back? Do we not brief before each takeoff in a higher performance aircraft?

[human garbage]

Anyway – I don’t believe regular non-aerobatic pilot (even experienced one, but without aerobatic background) can recover any airplane from unintentional spin. Doesn’t matter, what type of an airplane...

Type of airplane doesn't matter? Two words for you. Piper and Tomahawk.

It is well established that spinning the PA-38 in certain conditions (aft c of g or flaps extended) will kill you. IIRC it even killed a Piper test pilot. Almost killed me once. That is one bird that shouldn't have been certified...

Don't know enough about the Cirrus to pass judgement. The first time I saw one up close was this year in YXS. I couldn't believe the pilot when he said he flight plans for 170kts. It certainly has the potential to be a doctor killer with a cruise speed like that. This guy was clueless BTW. More money than brains. He was flying to Alaska with no VNCs north of Prince George. When I questioned his sanity he said it was all good and showed me some hoo ha flight planning software package with some printed maps (not even to scale and following the trench only). I gave them a local area brief about the route and area in general and wished them good luck. I was wondering when I would see them on the news for the next couple of days... Apparently they made it. Surprising all things considered as the man was not even capable of figuring out his uplift because the ticket was in litres. I had to convert it for him lol...

[MichaelP]

This guy was clueless BTW. More money than brains.

I disagree and yet agree.
A lot of these guys have made a lot of money in business, they have the drive and the smarts to make it.
Then they expect that same drive to gain them a pilot's licence...

So they are certainly not clueless when it comes to business.

But flying an aeroplane takes different smarts, it's not the smarts required for a good business plan, it's the smarts to decide what you have to do in ten minutes time and to be prepared for it. Aeroplane smarts are PDM, they are knowing that PPPPPPR, they are having sufficient experience to be where you are, and knowing your own limitations.

It's not more money than brains... It's more money than ability.
It's the full knowledge that you get what you pay for and you want the best whether it be a Bentley or a Cirrus.
You probably can kill more people in a turbo'd Bentley than in a Cirrus, but most people have years of experience before they drive one.

Keep reading the CADORs