jetsgo jobs
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jetsgo jobs
If pilots had any sense of dignity,ethics, and self worth they wouldn't have bought a job at Jetsgo. Unfortunately there are always desperate people out there who will do anything to get flying job or to try and get ahead. Now it's bit them hard in the ass. If Jetsgo really wanted to have set up shop they would have without having pilots pay for their training. All it would have taken was for the pilots applying to have told them to stick it or not apply there, that would have been the end of that. The one's I blame most are the ones who helped start the company. They set the precedent there. I for one cannot understand why someone would go out and buy a job. Remember the old adage: A FOOL AND HIS/HER MONEY ARE SOON PARTED!
Hey Fruitcake
Before you start dishing it out. Remember SG are not the only folks asking for money up front for training and then paying it back. Keewatin and Keystone in YWG and Thunder in YQT are examples on the top on my head. So before you go riding your high horse about dignity and ethics you can eat me. The only mistake the SG people made was getting involved with ML. When an option to get you out of the bush and back to civilization presents itself sometimes the lure or pressure is so great that people have to take it. That was the risk, they took it, and they may loose. But, we're not even sure of that yet.
edited a spelling mistake
Before you start dishing it out. Remember SG are not the only folks asking for money up front for training and then paying it back. Keewatin and Keystone in YWG and Thunder in YQT are examples on the top on my head. So before you go riding your high horse about dignity and ethics you can eat me. The only mistake the SG people made was getting involved with ML. When an option to get you out of the bush and back to civilization presents itself sometimes the lure or pressure is so great that people have to take it. That was the risk, they took it, and they may loose. But, we're not even sure of that yet.
edited a spelling mistake
It's better to break ground and head into the wind than to break wind and head into the ground.
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North of You
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Jaques Strappe
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Southwest Airlines New Pilot Requirements
Certificates / Ratings:
U.S. FAA Airline Transport Pilot Certificate. Unrestricted1 U.S. Type Rating on a B-737 not required for interview but required for employment.2
2A candidate may apply without a B-737 Type Rating. If a candidate interviews and successfully completes the entire selection process, he/she has 6 months from that date to obtain a B-737 Type Rating to be eligible for hire.
Certificates / Ratings:
U.S. FAA Airline Transport Pilot Certificate. Unrestricted1 U.S. Type Rating on a B-737 not required for interview but required for employment.2
2A candidate may apply without a B-737 Type Rating. If a candidate interviews and successfully completes the entire selection process, he/she has 6 months from that date to obtain a B-737 Type Rating to be eligible for hire.
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sky's the limit
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As I posted on the other JetsGo thread - those who pay for type ratings/PPC's are the root of a large portion of the problems we as pilots face in in this industry today. While JetsGo may be a cancer, it could be be argued that those who propagate the system are just as bad. Never forget that JetsGo never would have been able to start if it hadn't been for willing crews to prostitute themselves for a jet in the first place.
Tough times ahead for many of those folks, but most will land on their feet. Pilots paying for rides should be put on a list as far as I'm concerned - Scab. The validity of a PPC is debatable in and of it's own, but that's another thread entirely - we have enough issues and obsticles to overcome as pilots, our own colleagues should not be one of them.
Thunder, Alta, and the rest are just as bad as JetsGo, as are those working for them, not to mention the CMA's of the industry. When will fixed-wing pilots gain some self respect? If I could post the payscale of my current company legally, half of you would probably jump off a bridge - but you'd have to switch to helicopters too. I make more per month than a CMA Capt. before even going to work, plus away from home pay, plus per-diem, plus flight pay at $50/hr. Until FW pilots start refusing work en-mass, things aren't going to get any better at many of these companies.
Good luck.
Tough times ahead for many of those folks, but most will land on their feet. Pilots paying for rides should be put on a list as far as I'm concerned - Scab. The validity of a PPC is debatable in and of it's own, but that's another thread entirely - we have enough issues and obsticles to overcome as pilots, our own colleagues should not be one of them.
Thunder, Alta, and the rest are just as bad as JetsGo, as are those working for them, not to mention the CMA's of the industry. When will fixed-wing pilots gain some self respect? If I could post the payscale of my current company legally, half of you would probably jump off a bridge - but you'd have to switch to helicopters too. I make more per month than a CMA Capt. before even going to work, plus away from home pay, plus per-diem, plus flight pay at $50/hr. Until FW pilots start refusing work en-mass, things aren't going to get any better at many of these companies.
Good luck.
Yes I'm am riding my high horse. I've never paid a job in my life nor do I ever intend to. And I've never worked for sh#t wages either. I'll get out of the industry before that happens. If everyone else took that stance we wouldn't be where we are today. But wave an airplane before most pilots and they'll happily pay to fly the thing. Thats the whole problem here!
Not to endorse some of the questionable practices in the industry, but... I don't think that you can fairly compare rotary to fixed wing. I'm assuming that you're experienced and well-qualifed... how many guys, honestly, do you think could replace you if you told your employer to stick it, assuming that you were unhappy with a bond or your salary or working conditions or whatever?
Now look at fixed wing. Go ahead, try to make a stand... the fifty trillion guys standing in line behind you will be delighted.
I gotta say kudos to you guys giving up your time to get this CAAP thing off the ground. That, I believe, is the only way to get some respectable conditions across the board in aviation. There's no point in one guy sticking his neck out and losing his job to make a point when another will happily take his place. There's strength in numbers!
*edited for grammar
Now look at fixed wing. Go ahead, try to make a stand... the fifty trillion guys standing in line behind you will be delighted.
I gotta say kudos to you guys giving up your time to get this CAAP thing off the ground. That, I believe, is the only way to get some respectable conditions across the board in aviation. There's no point in one guy sticking his neck out and losing his job to make a point when another will happily take his place. There's strength in numbers!
*edited for grammar
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sky's the limit
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Gelbisch:
I'm cerrtainly not trying to sound too high and mighty, I just re-read my post and I appologise if it at all came across that way.
You are correct that FW and rotary are different animals. That said, I spent 4000hrs in FW before moving over, have been at it a couple of years now and bring some reasonable(and getting better all the time) heli skills to the table, as well as good bush type knowledge(weather, ops stuff etc). I certainly am not a high time rotary guy yet - some day!
The main difference I see is that in rotary, guys will flatly say "no." In fact, they'll scream it out loud for everyone to hear, and others will avoid those outfits. Now, I do realize in FW there are so many guys comming out of the puppy mills, and that pilot skill is not really at a premium as it is in helicopters,(I mean in the IFR world mainly) so there will always be a line-up to snap up an opening. That said, it's not a good excuse as to why pilots continue to prostitute themselves the way they do.
I don't have the answers, but I think putting a halt to paying for PPC's would be a good start. You seem to agree. It's one hell of a problem that's going to be very difficult, if not impossible to overcome. It depresses me very much as many of my friends are West Jetters and now, ex-JetsGo guys. To see 5 and 6Khr guys making 36K first year at WJ makes me cry. I see them renting out rooms in shitholes, or renting out their own houses, it sucks.
Anyway, I hope something happens to reverse this trend soon.
I'm cerrtainly not trying to sound too high and mighty, I just re-read my post and I appologise if it at all came across that way.
You are correct that FW and rotary are different animals. That said, I spent 4000hrs in FW before moving over, have been at it a couple of years now and bring some reasonable(and getting better all the time) heli skills to the table, as well as good bush type knowledge(weather, ops stuff etc). I certainly am not a high time rotary guy yet - some day!
The main difference I see is that in rotary, guys will flatly say "no." In fact, they'll scream it out loud for everyone to hear, and others will avoid those outfits. Now, I do realize in FW there are so many guys comming out of the puppy mills, and that pilot skill is not really at a premium as it is in helicopters,(I mean in the IFR world mainly) so there will always be a line-up to snap up an opening. That said, it's not a good excuse as to why pilots continue to prostitute themselves the way they do.
I don't have the answers, but I think putting a halt to paying for PPC's would be a good start. You seem to agree. It's one hell of a problem that's going to be very difficult, if not impossible to overcome. It depresses me very much as many of my friends are West Jetters and now, ex-JetsGo guys. To see 5 and 6Khr guys making 36K first year at WJ makes me cry. I see them renting out rooms in shitholes, or renting out their own houses, it sucks.
Anyway, I hope something happens to reverse this trend soon.
I apologize if I left you with the impression that I thought it was alright for anyone to pay for training. I don't agree with that and never will. In fact if you want to pm me I will tell you an interesting story about that topic.
Jetsgo's deal was a training bond just like most companies in Canada are now asking employees to sign. Note how I didn't say pilots. Edward Jones Investments has a similar agreement for their training. It think it's $15000 and I'm not sure on the terms. Most training bonds are legal agreements that both parties sign. Some, like the aformentioned companies, want money up front to cover training costs. It's a way of financing the cost and creating loyalty in their employees, although coerced. I always figured that their rational for the bond was that it saves them having to chase a guy down to pay the remaining portion of the bond. The problem with that is that if a company goes into receivership, like Jetsgo, the folks who paid up front get screwed.
My problem with Redbeard is that he started talking trash about dignity, ethics, and self worth when there's nothing wrong with what the Jetsgo pilots did. They did not buy their job. They signed an agreement with the company to stay for 2 years and if they wanted to leave earlier they had to pay the pro-rated cost of their training. After two years they got all their money back and in the meantime collected a paycheck. There mistake was getting involved with the wrong guy.
I agree that bonds are not very popular either. Whether or not I agree with bonds is another thread altogether. I miss the days of a gentleman's agreement.
WJ now has a hiring freeze and AC is recalling pilots, but were frozen until recently. I don't know what deal CanJet or Zoom has either. But when someone is hiring, it's a decent paying job, and it's in a city with a population of more that 200 that's a huge lure. People want to start families, buy houses, pay off debt, etc.
First and foremost Jetsgo's pilot took a risk and they lost. I know a few and I feel for them. No one knew the odds if it was going to pay off or not.
Jetsgo's deal was a training bond just like most companies in Canada are now asking employees to sign. Note how I didn't say pilots. Edward Jones Investments has a similar agreement for their training. It think it's $15000 and I'm not sure on the terms. Most training bonds are legal agreements that both parties sign. Some, like the aformentioned companies, want money up front to cover training costs. It's a way of financing the cost and creating loyalty in their employees, although coerced. I always figured that their rational for the bond was that it saves them having to chase a guy down to pay the remaining portion of the bond. The problem with that is that if a company goes into receivership, like Jetsgo, the folks who paid up front get screwed.
My problem with Redbeard is that he started talking trash about dignity, ethics, and self worth when there's nothing wrong with what the Jetsgo pilots did. They did not buy their job. They signed an agreement with the company to stay for 2 years and if they wanted to leave earlier they had to pay the pro-rated cost of their training. After two years they got all their money back and in the meantime collected a paycheck. There mistake was getting involved with the wrong guy.
I agree that bonds are not very popular either. Whether or not I agree with bonds is another thread altogether. I miss the days of a gentleman's agreement.
WJ now has a hiring freeze and AC is recalling pilots, but were frozen until recently. I don't know what deal CanJet or Zoom has either. But when someone is hiring, it's a decent paying job, and it's in a city with a population of more that 200 that's a huge lure. People want to start families, buy houses, pay off debt, etc.
First and foremost Jetsgo's pilot took a risk and they lost. I know a few and I feel for them. No one knew the odds if it was going to pay off or not.
It's better to break ground and head into the wind than to break wind and head into the ground.
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Jaques Strappe
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Absolutely Snowgoose
However, in my experience, any company that needs to ask for money up front, is usually not worth working for.
Is it that bad a place that the employer knows their employees are going to leave at the first chance they get? Is it that much underfunded with Capital that it needs money as a term of employment?
Most decent companies, invest in their people and that comes back with dividends. I sometimes get sick of the Westjet ra...ra....ra...., sort of reminds me of an Amway pyramid but they obviously invest in their people and that pays off for the company as a whole.
There was a very different culture at jetsgo. People seemed to be buying Jet time or buying their way out of the bush or off the street. A pilot should be able to look forward to a good career and a mortgage in the suburbs and a wife and a minvan................oh god.......kill me now!
However, in my experience, any company that needs to ask for money up front, is usually not worth working for.
Is it that bad a place that the employer knows their employees are going to leave at the first chance they get? Is it that much underfunded with Capital that it needs money as a term of employment?
Most decent companies, invest in their people and that comes back with dividends. I sometimes get sick of the Westjet ra...ra....ra...., sort of reminds me of an Amway pyramid but they obviously invest in their people and that pays off for the company as a whole.
There was a very different culture at jetsgo. People seemed to be buying Jet time or buying their way out of the bush or off the street. A pilot should be able to look forward to a good career and a mortgage in the suburbs and a wife and a minvan................oh god.......kill me now!
Standby for new atis message
My old man has been at AC since the tender age of 23, and his brother came up through CP and Canadian. My grandpa was at TCA. Growing up with exposure to how it once was and fully expecting to live the dream myself, it's difficult to watch it all crumble just after I arrive. My brother has already had the sense to pack it in after two years invested.sky's the limit wrote:...I think putting a halt to paying for PPC's would be a good start... It's one hell of a problem that's going to be very difficult, if not impossible to overcome... To see 5 and 6Khr guys making 36K first year at WJ makes me cry.
That said, there is no point in crying over spilt milk. This is the brave new world, and all we can do is as well as we can with given circumstances. Aviation, of course, has always been cyclical. Things fortunately appear to be on the upswing - until 300 guys entered the job search market at 12:02 this morning, anyway - which will give us all a little more leverage. It is the responsibility of anyone able to make carriers understand that there are certain practices that will not be accepted, even if the legacy days are over and the airline pilot profession is no longer as lucrative or enviable as it once was. With bright-eyed and bushy-tailed rookies ready to prostitute themselves - and lets face it... when you've got 200 hours and a thousand competitors of equal ilk, who isn't going to do what he can to get ahead? - the only way to force humane conditions is some sort of assocation, in my opinion. LCCs may be the wave of the future, but this doesn't mean that we should sacrifice our identity as professionals and degrade our profession to the level of a McJob.
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Flying Nutcracker
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It's funny how pilots always like to say "I told you so!"... It's funny how something can seem so right for one person, and so wrong for another... We all make choices in life. Some good, some bad. I think for the people formerly known as Jetsgo-employees... it turned out to be a rather unfortunate choice. Now they have to deal with the consequences, in whatever way they can.
As far as pilots still wanting to pay $$$ for a job and a PPC goes... It's just like training a monkey to push a certain button when told to do so... Whenever you say it, it's going to push that button. There's no educational factor involved, just something it does! Monkey see, monkey dooh! Just like grabbing the QRH for a Master Warning. You see you fix, you see you fix. Maybe if you have to fix it enough times you'll catch on to the fact that something is wrong with this picture...??? Or maybe not...
I feel for all of you that I know at Jetsgo! I'm sure it will work out in the end!
FN
As far as pilots still wanting to pay $$$ for a job and a PPC goes... It's just like training a monkey to push a certain button when told to do so... Whenever you say it, it's going to push that button. There's no educational factor involved, just something it does! Monkey see, monkey dooh! Just like grabbing the QRH for a Master Warning. You see you fix, you see you fix. Maybe if you have to fix it enough times you'll catch on to the fact that something is wrong with this picture...??? Or maybe not...
I feel for all of you that I know at Jetsgo! I'm sure it will work out in the end!
FN
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BeaconInbound
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The topic of buying a PPC has been a common theme in all threads on this forum since the beginning. It's obvious that it is a sore spot in the industry and rightly so. Of all the banter I've read on this issue, the one thing I have not seen (maybe I missed it because I haven't been around since the beginning and haven't read every single thread) is how the company can be made responsible through legislation. Did I open up a can of worms? Maybe. But, people aren't going to change. There will always be someone who will work for free or buy a PPC to get ahead of those who can't or won't. Therefore, there will always be companies that will take advantage of this. In my humble opinion, maybe the government should step in to address this issue. But, do they have the motivation to address it. I don't know. I can imagine there are those in government who have "interests" in aviation companies who like things just the way they are now. In any case, things will never change until the lawmakers say so.
My two cents.
My two cents.
B'cn
redbeard... the problem is too many pilots and not enough jobs. once an industry is saturated with potential employees, people will do whatever it takes to gain employment and experience. considering there are thousands of pilots applying for the same few positions, people do virutally anything to get a small advantage over someone else. PPC etc, offering to pay for experience.... if there was a surplus of doctors and very few positions, you'd see them offering their services for next to nothing or even paying out of their own pocket for additional training so they might get a job. But, unless people stop flight training or there is a surplus of jobs in the future the issue of bonds and paying for PPCs will only get worse. wait till fuel prices go up over the next ten years and operators have to watch every little expense.. i think the situation will only get worse. I understand your point of all pilots banding together to only accept a good wage, but this will only force some operators out of business and lower the overall amount of employment - taking away stepping stones for low time pilots.
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Lost in Saigon
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Jaques Strappe
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172 Pilot
Do really think if there was a surplus of Doctors, candidates would be willing to work for nothing after already completing an internship? Not all, but most Doctors enjoy the Mercedes and County Club too much for that.
Do you think a guy will pay for an MBA if it mean't earning a wage of less than a TTC bus driver? Not too many MBA's out there willing to do that. Maybe very short term but there would have to be a payoff.
The era of pilots driving a mercedes and hob knobbing at the country club with Doctors and MBA's is long gone. So what was the payoff at Jetsgo? Was it the job that would catapult them to stardome? What would have been the next step with an MD80 or F100 endorsement?
If it was simply to put food on the table, they could have made just as much money flying a turboprop or driving a cab.
I don't mean to piss people off but if you are gonna make such drastic sacrifices.........what are the payoffs? I don't get it.
Do really think if there was a surplus of Doctors, candidates would be willing to work for nothing after already completing an internship? Not all, but most Doctors enjoy the Mercedes and County Club too much for that.
Do you think a guy will pay for an MBA if it mean't earning a wage of less than a TTC bus driver? Not too many MBA's out there willing to do that. Maybe very short term but there would have to be a payoff.
The era of pilots driving a mercedes and hob knobbing at the country club with Doctors and MBA's is long gone. So what was the payoff at Jetsgo? Was it the job that would catapult them to stardome? What would have been the next step with an MD80 or F100 endorsement?
If it was simply to put food on the table, they could have made just as much money flying a turboprop or driving a cab.
I don't mean to piss people off but if you are gonna make such drastic sacrifices.........what are the payoffs? I don't get it.
Standby for new atis message
If forcing a company to operate with fair employment conditions will force it out of business, is there potentially a larger issue there?172pilot wrote:I understand your point of all pilots banding together to only accept a good wage, but this will only force some operators out of business and lower the overall amount of employment...
As pilots we have brought this era of training bonds on ourselves. If pilots could be trusted to keep their word and stay at a company as long as they originally say they will, then there would be no bonds. Too many pilots have gotten the training and then buggered off to other companies within months. I worked at Thunder Air before they had a training bond. They asked you to stay for a year, you agreed and shook hands. They trained you and you stayed for a year. Then a few guys left BEFORE their year was up, then a few more guys did they same and next thing you know, WHAM in comes the training bond. Now before someone tries to flame me about leaving for poor working conditions, low pay or some other crap, do some research before you take the job. If you don't think you can stay for a year then DON"T tell the employer that you will!!! As for Thunder, It was a great place to work and I was always treated fairly. They wanted you to work hard and you were compensated accordingly.This is just one example that I experienced first hand. With the cost of training hitting an all time high, and the number of pilots willing to stand by their word at a apparent all time low, no wonder companies are looking to protect themselves.
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ice ice baby
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Vickers vanguard
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Jaques Strappe wrote:.... driving a mercedes and hob knobbing at the country club with Doctors and MBA's is long gone. So what was the payoff at Jetsgo? Was it the job that would catapult them to stardome? What would have been the next step with an MD80 or F100 endorsement?
If it was simply to put food on the table, they could have made just as much money flying a turboprop or driving a cab.
I don't mean to piss people off but if you are gonna make such drastic sacrifices.........what are the payoffs? I don't get it.
Jaques , I can see what you're thinking of !......very valid assumption and one of the first to mention that
