Calling out Hedley

[Hedley]

saying that nav can employees are overpaid and under educated nutjobs is a personal attack to me

Where did I say that?

You completely misunderstand. I never said that ALL
NavCan employees are overpaid and undereducated
nutjobs. But every large organization has their percentage
of idiots and you must admit that NavCan certainly
has theirs. Transport Canada surely has theirs, too.

And God knows there are plenty of idiotic pilots -
Lord knows I've met enough of them over the years.

And engineers - I could write a book about the bizarre
engineers I have met over the decades.

Plenty of NavCan ATC and employees are friends of
mine. I went to bat for a NavCan guy I hardly knew
until recently - he was getting screwed around, and
I put an end to that, even though it really annoyed
some people I am acquainted with.

Anyways, if you say something about "idiotic pilots"
I know you can't possibly be talking about me
and I'll probably agree with you.

[Sulako]

I misread Hedley's post also, but I thought he said "Undereducated overpaid AvCanada nutjob". I assumed he meant me, and I figured it was a fair comment so I let it slide

[xsbank]

Did my post get deleted or did I forget to hit 'send?'

[Donald]

Probably censored.

Welcome to the "new" avcanada.

[the_professor]

Prof: Read the bloody posting...I have..repeat...no problem paying my fair share for services....Like many other clear thinking individuals, I resent TC/GC collecting a tax for services that they no longer provide. Mr Dithers was too damned busy restructuring his shipping interests to avoid paying taxes in Canada and at the same time firing ships crews and hiring on Philipinos at very low wages, to know anything about the fuel tax.

You're not going to find me defending Paul Martin -- possibly the most useless Prime Minister we've ever had. He "balanced" the budget by using the GST revenue Mulroney created, even though the Liberals campaigned on repealing it, and our military and health care suffer to this day for the bullshit he pulled while in office.

Nor will you find me defending the government for collecting taxes under false pretenses. I don't support that any more than Hedley does.

However, the fact remains that Nav Canada cannot be held responsible for government tax policy, period. I've said it time and time again here: If you have a problem with the government's fuel excise tax, then bitch at/about the government, not Nav Canada.

And even if you think you're being double-taxed, the fact STILL remains that the fuel tax as it stands today would only cover about 4 cents on the dollar for Nav Can's operations. It is a dead=end argument no matter how you try to spin it.

[the_professor]

Likely, for an overpaid,
under-educated NavCan nutjob.

[GilletteNorth]

N2: I too get an annual invoice from Nav Canada whether I use their services or not! What a friggen rip off. Where the hell are my fuel taxes going?

Fuel taxes go to the government. Complain to them. The annual invoice goes to Nav Canada to pay for an air navigation system that you may use at your leisure, or not. However air traffic services must be funded to be available should you decide to ever use them whether this year or the next. You might want to ask the government for a refund on your next tax statement though because the fees also pay for services provided for free to government aircraft that work for you as a taxpayer due to the agreements made during the sale of ANS by Transport Canada to Nav Canada. Or better yet, tell the government to send us the fuel taxes to pay for THOSE services. The $38 million quoted by the Professor would probably cover what would be their cost for service charges.

Stinson4118c: A user fee is definitely a tax.

If it is charged by the government, no matter what they want to call it, it certainly is. But the user fee charged by Nav Canada is a service charge.

mag check: I guess the argument could be made that the fees are a tax because they are charged regardless if the services are used or not. A user fee would only be charged to the users. It is a tax levied on all aircraft owners, just for the privlage of owning an aircraft.

Municipal, provincial and federal governments charge for services to cover costs regardless if you use the services. That includes police, health care, education you name it. Regardless if you think you personally use them these services must be financed. I once heard a person state that he didn't understand why he paid taxes that supported an education system he didn't use (he was referring to colleges, student loans etc). He ignored the fact that most of the education system produces all the professions he requires in a normal functioning society with everything from doctors down? to the sanitation engineers. Nav Canada provides all the ANS services in Canada. The day you decide to go flying in your plane isn't the day Nav Canada is going to suddenly spring up magically out of nowhere fully funded by leprechaun gold to service your needs. The argument you don't want to pay fees for the air navigation system until you (think you) use it is the same argument about not paying taxes for the education system. The fees are scaled according to user. Even the guy who owns a plane but doesn't want to pay anything until he actually goes up must pay something regardless so that the ANS is there when he does.

Old Dog Flying: Nav Canada is charging each aircraft owner for the same services that the fuel tax was to cover.

Respects for what you say and I agree with pretty much all of it. Nav Canada must charge fees to cover its operating costs and other costs associated. Talk to the government if you want to get the fuel tax removed.

Hedley: But by law, he must pay NavCan their yearly aircraft fee. But he avails himself of absolutely no NavCan services. Hm. Anything wrong with this picture?

See the last sentence in my reply to mag check (and the part about leprechaun gold).

[the_professor]

Excellent post, GN.

[N2]

When I use the service I should pay but not a second before...period!

Do I pre pay my dentist because I might need his services next year? How about my auto insurance company, should I pre pay my deductible now just incase also?

What a pile of crap paying Nav Canada for something I don't use. It's a tax on the owner plain and simple.

[complexintentions]

hey prof,

Any chance we would get a refund for our ANS charges for THIS flight?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/08/ ... 80709.html

We just weren't totally happy with the service provided. God bless TCAS.

[xsbank]

GN, your argument is flawed.

Is Navcanada a government service or not? If you pay and you never use the service, its a tax. If I buy a cell phone and I don't use it, I don't have to pay any fees on it. Same for guys who own aircraft and never use Navcanada's fees. I can wire up my house for hydro but if I don't connect, I don't pay.

It a f*cking tax. Tell me what happens if you own an aircraft and you don't pay your bill and you don't use their services?

Same to you, Professor, with bells on.

[GilletteNorth]

I'd say your argument is flawed because you seem to think the only time you recieve service is when you actually go up flying and talk to ATS on the radio or dial up a nav aid. There are lots of services that occur year round associated with the ANS that an owner of a plane is expected to contribute to. When it comes to the annual fee for general aviation aircraft the cost is about equivalent to buying a few pizzas. One quick example is maintaining the database in the CFS. Although you might try to claim you don't 'use' the information in the CFS until planning your flight, the fact it even is available is a service already rendered and also requires continued payment for updating. The same basis keeps all the nav aids up, centers staffed, and the whole shebang running.

Explain the outcome of the following scenario under your "I don't want to pay for services until I use them" theory.

100 people all show up in the local park with swim trunks on, towels draped over their shoulder, a dollar in their pocket and all of them wanting to go swimming. Unfortunately there is no pool. And none of the yokels standing there in their swim trunks want to pay for building one. They just want to pay for their swimming when they get into the pool. How do you suppose they are going to swim in the park when no one wants to pay to build the pool and run it?

Saying you don't think owners should pay for their fair share reminds me of the story of the mother hen and her chicklets asking everyone around to plant wheat with them, tend it, reap the wheat, grind the flour then make the bread and no one wanted to do anything until it was time to eat it. I thought most parents told that story to their children. The moral of the story was if you wanted a 'share' you had to work for a share. Owning an aircraft means you want to play and in order to play you have to pay whether you choose to play now or at a later time.

I suppose the solution to not paying your share of maintaining the ANS system if you own a plane would be to prop it up on a pedestal where it will never be used again, take a picture and send it to Nav Canada asking for a refund of the annual fee.

[GilletteNorth]

One more thing, the ANS system isn't paid for and realistically never will be due to costs associated running it. It was 'bought' for $1.5 billion? dollars from Transport Canada and 'in effect' is owned by every aircraft owner in Canada. It will take years for the $1.5 billion bill to be paid in full and by then, hopefully, the service charges will be drastically reduced.

The best part is the vast majority of the bill will be paid for by service charges to foreign carriers.

So what are you griping about?

[mag check]

I'd say your argument is flawed because you seem to think the only time you recieve service is when you actually go up flying and talk to ATS on the radio or dial up a nav aid. There are lots of services that occur year round associated with the ANS that an owner of a plane is expected to contribute to. When it comes to the annual fee for general aviation aircraft the cost is about equivalent to buying a few pizzas. One quick example is maintaining the database in the CFS. Although you might try to claim you don't 'use' the information in the CFS until planning your flight, the fact it even is available is a service already rendered and also requires continued payment for updating. The same basis keeps all the nav aids up, centers staffed, and the whole shebang running.

Explain the outcome of the following scenario under your "I don't want to pay for services until I use them" theory.

100 people all show up in the local park with swim trunks on, towels draped over their shoulder, a dollar in their pocket and all of them wanting to go swimming. Unfortunately there is no pool. And none of the yokels standing there in their swim trunks want to pay for building one. They just want to pay for their swimming when they get into the pool. How do you suppose they are going to swim in the park when no one wants to pay to build the pool and run it?

Saying you don't think owners should pay for their fair share reminds me of the story of the mother hen and her chicklets asking everyone around to plant wheat with them, tend it, reap the wheat, grind the flour then make the bread and no one wanted to do anything until it was time to eat it. I thought most parents told that story to their children. The moral of the story was if you wanted a 'share' you had to work for a share. Owning an aircraft means you want to play and in order to play you have to pay whether you choose to play now or at a later time.

I suppose the solution to not paying your share of maintaining the ANS system if you own a plane would be to prop it up on a pedestal where it will never be used again, take a picture and send it to Nav Canada asking for a refund of the annual fee.

Your whole argument only works because you assume that every aircraft owner will at some point use the system.
There are many who will never use nav canada, but have to pay each year.
There are also a large number of owners that don't have to pay, but use the system on a daily basis. So how is it again that this is fair?

[GilletteNorth]

There are many who will never use nav canada, but have to pay each year.

Who are these people? Give me some examples of the ones you claim go flying without using Nav Canada services. If they ever go flying without availing themselves of current weather and all information necessary for the safe completion of flight they are in violation of CARS. If they do go prepared they have already used Nav Canada services.

The annual fee is levied to aircraft owners on the assumption that eventually the aircraft will require Nav Canada services. If you don't like that, don't buy a plane. It's part of the indirect operating/maintenance costs. It's not fair? It's totally fair. A huge argument on this forum has been how the fuel tax is unfair because the funds gathered aren't applied directly toward the aviation industry. That is the government doing what it does best. The Nav Canada fees levied for services directly towards the people involved are unfair??? That's a pretty hypocritical argument.

I believe you are correct stating that there are those who are exempt from some charges. Those fees were removed after consultation with representatives from the entire aviation community, and the revenue was generally believed to be negligible anyway. However, it's not possible to run the ANS without some level of funding and the level was determined to include charging an annual fee to aircraft owners whether or not they 'use' the system. Talk to your aviation representatives on the Nav Canada board and lobby to get the fees removed for these nebulous aircraft owners that never use Nav Canada services if it bothers you so much.

[mag check]

How can you say that the system is fair when 12-13% of the aircraft in Canada don't have to pay? Why are the rest of us paying their way?

Could you point me to the Reg that says someone can't fly their nordo aircraft off their own runway, in uncontrolled airspace without contacting Nav Canada for a weather briefing?
I could be wrong(have been before) but I don't remember reading that reg.

[xsbank]

I show up at the pool with my swim trunks and my Loonie and I decide to not go in. Guess what? I don't pay. I don't pay the user fee because I don't use the pool. I also have a TV stuck on my wall and I don't pay anyone for the service because I never watch TV. I don't GARA that there are 100s of channels, I don't use the service. Bell and Videotron are immaterial to me. How many examples do you need?

Bite me.

[yeah yeah]

Somebody take this thread outside and shoot it in the head.

[Hedley]

Since I'm the one being "called out" - WTF does that
mean, anyways? Are some bullies going to beat me
up after grade school is over at 4pm? - can I post all
sorts of huge photos here of neat, shiny toys?

Everyone always seems to enjoy it when I do that ...

[tesox2]

When I use the service I should pay but not a second before...period!

Certainly not a business expert...

[tesox2]

Id like to poll how many here have gym memberships, pay insurance, Union fees, magazine subscriptions, fishing licenses, buy gas for their car...oh man, this argument is almost too foolish to exist...

All of the above require payment before using...if you dont use it, whose fault is that?

[N2]

Retracted my words

[GilletteNorth]

mag check: How can you say that the system is fair when 12-13% of the aircraft in Canada don't have to pay? Why are the rest of us paying their way?

It's fair because you (the aviation community in general) asked for it. Now that it is in effect you are saying "hey, they don't pay, why do we pay?"
Again you are moving toward a "magical leprechaun gold" scenario. You don't want to be reasonable about a fee that is peanuts compared to buying a few pizzas, compared to what it costs to own and operate an aircraft, compared to the huge actual cost of running the ANS.

N2: Give me my GPS, a field and Nav Canada can go to hell!

Bon voyage.
This argument isn't worth any more of my time. moving on...

[N2]

mag check: How can you say that the system is fair when 12-13% of the aircraft in Canada don't have to pay? Why are the rest of us paying their way?

It's fair because you (the aviation community in general) asked for it. Now that it is in effect you are saying "hey, they don't pay, why do we pay?"
Again you are moving toward a "magical leprechaun gold" scenario. You don't want to be reasonable about a fee that is peanuts compared to buying a few pizzas, compared to what it costs to own and operate an aircraft, compared to the huge actual cost of running the ANS.

N2: Give me my GPS, a field and Nav Canada can go to hell!

Bon voyage.
This argument isn't worth any more of my time. moving on...

Ok then lets put it this way.

Say for instance myself, I am just a working stiff who enjoys taking a relaxing VFR flight every now and then. In 2007 my plane flew an amazing 3.5 hours, didn't file a single flight plan or use any navaids and talked to the controllers maybe 4 times (which I really didn't have to if I were on an uncontrolled field) Yet I am expected to pay the same price for services as a plane that flies IFR over 100 hours in the same year. Does that seem fair?

I have no problem with user pay but when I don't use the services why should I pay?

[mag check]

Id like to poll how many here have gym memberships, pay insurance, Union fees, magazine subscriptions, fishing licenses, buy gas for their car...oh man, this argument is almost too foolish to exist...

All of the above require payment before using...if you dont use it, whose fault is that?

You have missed the point completely.

You are not required to buy a fishing license just because you own a rod. You are not forced to buy a magazine just because you like to read, and you aren't forced to buy gas for a car that you don't drive.
If you buy a gym membership, then you are at least planning on going to the gym, but having your name on a c of r doesn't mean that you are intending to use Nav Canada.

I am confused as to why around 4000 of the 31000 aircraft in Canada aren't required to pay for Nav Canada services, even if they use the system 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and others who never use the system once get charged a minimum of $68.

Can anyone from Nav Canada answer that?