JetsGo Pilot Fund

dxpr · Post by **dxpr** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:20 pm

How about a fund to stop new pilots from whoring themselves out!!!

Or how about a fund to stop people from learning to fly in the first place..

"You wanna be a pilot? I'll give you $1000 just to walk away right now and never come back!"

Here is the best idea, someone cut me a cheque for my own stoopidity for starting this career, and I'll leave right now!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:34 pm

Quote:
The fund already exists, it's called EI and distribution is already taken care of.

Not for everyone, I was self employed with all my own money invested in my flying business when a couple of low life pricks at TC bankrupted me, I do not qualify for EI.

I did two things, went back to work overseas to get another stake saved up, and decided that if its the last f.cking thing I do on this earth I will do my best to see justice done to the couple of pricks in TC who think they are unacountable.

I feel empathy for all the people who are out of work today at Jetsgo and hope they are back to work soon.

But the sad truth is its a tough world out there and in the final analysis only you can help you.

Cat

... · Post by **...** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:18 pm

The danger here is now the industry from top to the bottom. is ripe for a a repetitive viscious cycle.

My intentions are to help those that have fallen. If we don't extend our hand to help...how will this industry heal itself...we are all in it together...from the kid walking into a flight school for the first time...to a 59 year old A340-500 Air Canada Captain.

peeelot · Post by **peeelot** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:24 pm

PRATT if you knew anything aboutr aviation you would know that ML over estimated royals worth by 25 million and C3 purchased them for too much money because of his bookeeping. ML is the biggest Ahole and as far as I am concerened if he were to die I would piss and dance on his grave

pilotbzh · Post by **pilotbzh** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:10 am

who care........ I'll offer the vaseline if they would ever happen to need it.....

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:39 am

I am Birddog wrote:The danger here is now the industry from top to the bottom. is ripe for a a repetitive viscious cycle.

My intentions are to help those that have fallen. If we don't extend our hand to help...how will this industry heal itself...we are all in it together...from the kid walking into a flight school for the first time...to a 59 year old A340-500 Air Canada Captain.

Birddog,

Your intentions are noble, and you are right that the industry is vulnerable to a "repetitive viscious cycle."

I am somewhat torn between my disgust with up-front money to get a job and my sympathy for friends who have lost their jobs. When you pay money up front without guarantees in place to get it back, it is equivalent, IMHO, to being an entrepreneurial partner. As we know, entrepreneurs risk what they put in, they can lose it all or get the big rewards. My simpathy is limited to those who left solid jobs mesmerized by the big-jet mantra. However, what do you say about a guy who has been out of work for a year? I know a few Jazz pilots who, second year into a lay-off that many were told by their peers would only last a few months, were looking at an Air Canada that appeared to be on the verge of liquidation, only to flood the market with thousands of experienced pilots on a scale that has never been seen in Canada before. I ask myself, faced with the similar pressures, what would I have done? What would you have done? If you were unskilled to do anything else, would you hang up your wings or take the "entrepreneurial risk?"

There is a lesson here. Entrepreneurial risk is exactly that-- risky. I think most entrepreneurs investigate a business prospect better, doing a market study, assessing whether it is a sustainable business, etc, than most Jetsgo applicants ever did. The warning signs were out there from Day 1 that Jetsgo got started, and yet people were hypnotized and in a state of denial that the foundation was shaky-- new airplanes were coming!!! route expansions!!! massive hiring!!! upgrades!!! pretty young flight attendants!!! Things must be great?!?!? People viewed LCC as the promised land and immune from the problems that have plagued the airline industry.

For me, upfront money is fundamentally wrong. I will go as far as signing a bond or a promisary note, but beyond that, forget it. Perhaps more people will think the same way. For those that lost the money, it is an unfortuate and bitter lesson. Most of these Employees will be entitled to Employment insurance, a benefit that I don't even believe is available to traditional entrepreneurs.

Honestly, the best thing I think we can do for these people is to help them find a new job. I hope all of us, from the student pilot to the 59 year old A-340 Captain at Air Canada, are a little spooked by the Jetsgo experience.

... · Post by **...** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:06 am

Panama Jack wrote:
I am Birddog wrote:The danger here is now the industry from top to the bottom. is ripe for a a repetitive viscious cycle.

My intentions are to help those that have fallen. If we don't extend our hand to help...how will this industry heal itself...we are all in it together...from the kid walking into a flight school for the first time...to a 59 year old A340-500 Air Canada Captain.

Birddog,

Your intentions are noble, and you are right that the industry is vulnerable to a "repetitive viscious cycle."

I am somewhat torn between my disgust with up-front money to get a job and my sympathy for friends who have lost their jobs. When you pay money up front without guarantees in place to get it back, it is equivalent, IMHO, to being an entrepreneurial partner. As we know, entrepreneurs risk what they put in, they can lose it all or get the big rewards. My simpathy is limited to those who left solid jobs mesmerized by the big-jet mantra. However, what do you say about a guy who has been out of work for a year? I know a few Jazz pilots who, second year into a lay-off that many were told by their peers would only last a few months, were looking at an Air Canada that appeared to be on the verge of liquidation, only to flood the market with thousands of experienced pilots on a scale that has never been seen in Canada before. I ask myself, faced with the similar pressures, what would I have done? What would you have done? If you were unskilled to do anything else, would you hang up your wings or take the "entrepreneurial risk?"

There is a lesson here. Entrepreneurial risk is exactly that-- risky. I think most entrepreneurs investigate a business prospect better, doing a market study, assessing whether it is a sustainable business, etc, than most Jetsgo applicants ever did. The warning signs were out there from Day 1 that Jetsgo got started, and yet people were hypnotized and in a state of denial that the foundation was shaky-- new airplanes were coming!!! route expansions!!! massive hiring!!! upgrades!!! pretty young flight attendants!!! Things must be great?!?!? People viewed LCC as the promised land and immune from the problems that have plagued the airline industry.

For me, upfront money is fundamentally wrong. I will go as far as signing a bond or a promisary note, but beyond that, forget it. Perhaps more people will think the same way. For those that lost the money, it is an unfortuate and bitter lesson. Most of these Employees will be entitled to Employment insurance, a benefit that I don't even believe is available to traditional entrepreneurs.

Honestly, the best thing I think we can do for these people is to help them find a new job. I hope all of us, from the student pilot to the 59 year old A-340 Captain at Air Canada, are a little spooked by the Jetsgo experience.

Well said Mr Panama...again another winner post.

In case you didn't know...your thoughts echos my own and I believe I have been very passionate in expressing the disgust I have had in the pit of my stomach for the past 2 years.

The $ raised, if any, will not even come close to buying one ex-JetsGo employee a turkey dinner for easter for his family. However, I can't sleep at night if I don't get off my 'sheepskin chair' and put aside my opinions about their descisions to join the green team.

This issue is closer to my backyard than most know. A family 2 months ago moved into one of my investment properties I own. A nice young family. He was so nice to me that he offered to walk my resume into JetsGo (bless his heart

) once he found out I was in the 'industry' .
"don't give up...keep 'yer chin up you'll get in the airlines soon enough" Isn't that the most heart breaking thing you have ever heard?

I don't know if he reads this forum or not...however...they are a young family happy to be back in the city, excited about his new jet job and all smiles from them...well this has put a human face to the issue for me...They were better off up north than in the city less, 30K and a new minivan to pay for.

listenheregirl · Post by **listenheregirl** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:44 am

Make it a law/regulation that aircraft/airline businesses must provide training and make it illegal for any aircraft related company to take out training bonds. TC has too much time on their hands anyway and I am sure they could do something to reinstate their confidence on this side of the industry.

cloudrunner · Post by **cloudrunner** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:44 am

listenheregirl wrote:Make it a law/regulation that aircraft/airline businesses must provide training and make it illegal for any aircraft related company to take out training bonds. TC has too much time on their hands anyway and I am sure they could do something to reinstate their confidence on this side of the industry

Brilliant idea.
IMHO, any money raised would be best spent on a good lobby firm to get this pushed though the courts...put an and to this shit for good.

... · Post by **...** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:59 am

Jaques Strappe wrote:Hi Birddog

I think you will agree there is little sympathy for someone buying a job. You of all people would understand this. I have read your previous posts about SG and paying to be there. You had the same opinion and disgust.

I am sympathetic to anyone losing a job but paying for it is kind of like walking across that invisible picket line to scab yourself. Nothing deserves asshole comments for sure but a fund? I must assume it is an attempt at either humour or invoking debate. If it is the latter, one must expect some "asshole" comments.

Jaques.

Thank you Jaques for your contribution to this forum of debate...a forum and website like no other in Canada for aviation. (The following is not directed to you Jaques)

The nature of our business, we cannot all gather in a room and debate issues that affect us all...so here we find ourselves in a 'cyber boardroom' where people can voice their opinions and debate issues. Whether people think of this forum as a trash bin or a good resource...it's all we have...and sometimes we have to filter through the rubbish to find the real gems.

A quote from the actor Sean Connery from the movie "The Untouchables"

"What are you prepared to do?"

Yes I have been the biggest (loud mouth) voice in the 'cyber halls' about the training bond @ SG and paying for PPC's in every operation. I have made mistakes in my personal life, professional life and career in the past. What is done is done over at JetsGo. However the mistakes that were learned should not be swept under the carpet. Bring it all out into the open and grow stronger for it as a community.

"What are you prepared to do?"

The biggest shock to me after speaking to some JetsGo pilots is that "they never saw this coming" One person said to me..."we were told to fly to YQB for a thrust check on our airplane...on the ground they said here's you train ticket back to YYZ you go..."

What's done is done. SG is gone and NOW we have hundreds of employees in the EI lines. These are people that have committed to a company that has behaved irresponsibly to its work force headed by a man that has a history of doing it. Why is that?

"What are you prepared to do?"

From the top down...why has this happened??
Who issued the OC? Transport Canada (aka Transport Quebec)
Is it a coincidence that the airplanes are parked in YQB?-NO. Quebec parliament is there...there is more to this that meets the eye...This is what I have been so restrained to post here because of my personal involvement with a certain minister in Quebec politics who happens to hold a seat in the ruling party's cabinet. I don't claim to be "the guy" that knows it all but knowing full well the closed door involvements of this whole thing...well it was hard to sit behind this computer and not to warn our colleagues at SG...for fear of repercussions and straining my relationship with this person and endangering his public reputation. Let's just say...I was sick to my stomach and disheartened at what our tax dollars at work is really doing for us.

so now, "What are you prepared to do?"

Now we have hundreds of pilots without a job. These are people and one of them is renting a home from me. Despite their good intentions and desperate times they faced to make the decision to fork out 30K...these are people with real issues that being 'Employed at Home Depot' isn't the ideal job for professional aviators.

It's over...time to heal. Time to learn from this mistake.

Instead we laugh at them, and to put me on TRIAL because I decided to voice my opinion "to forgive and LEARN" from this catastrophic mistake...doesn't paint a good picture of us as professional aviators in Canada.

There is NO need to rub it in their face. No matter how many heated debates Mr. Pimper and I have had or insults thrown at each other...it's time to heal.

"What are you prepared to do?"

so far I have received 4 emails from 'journalists' in the media that are looking for my take and opinions and my background knowledge regarding my political contact...I won't speak to them. They are snakes in the grass. I refuse to break the potential solidarity of this community we are trying glue together.

If we don't fuse our community NOW and bond together...expect more news like this in the future when the 'Skies will be ripped open and our "friends" to the south will be living in our back yard'

I have always displayed my opinions at times as the 'funny guy' at times as matters that are close to the heart...I am insulted that my intentions are to being taken as a vengeful manner to display the obviously embarrassment to our brothers and sisters @ SG. Those that know me will contest to the fact that I will do anything for anyone that asks me to expecting nothing in return. But I kindly ask all of you to believe my intentions are true.

This 'Fund' is the only manner I know how to extend my hand to those that need support...since there are so many SG pilots unemployed right now, I can't hire or house all of them...I am doing my part to support the only one of them that happens to be renting a home from me with his family. I have notified them that I am giving them 2 months grace on the rent and take some strain off of their minds.
FYI: I'm not looking for anyone to pat me on my back here...it's not about me.

So now, what are we prepared to do...?

I can't devote anymore time to this topic...I have a company to run.
Fly safe everyone.

pika · Post by **pika** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:01 pm

Quote:
The fund already exists, it's called EI and distribution is already taken care of.

Not for everyone, I was self employed with all my own money invested in my flying business when a couple of low life pricks at TC bankrupted me, I do not qualify for EI.

All Jetsgo employees will have a record of employment thus qualify for EI.

Legacy · Post by **Legacy** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:23 pm

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:30 pm

We should all take it as a hard lesson learned. Don't put you own $$$ up for a job. End of story. Signing a training bond is different, but its not your $$$ at least.

On a side note, I see that A Skydive operation out of toronto has their annual ad in the COPA classifieds. This guy has burned a lot of pilots too, but fortunately only $500 instead of $30000!!

... · Post by **...** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:30 pm

Legacy wrote:
Maybe you are just trying to stir the pot.

I give up...I can't believe this...

"If you stop to throw rocks at every barking dog along your journey...you'll never reach your destination" -Don Cherry

bartbandy · Post by **bartbandy** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:52 pm

I have notified them that I am giving them 2 months grace on the rent and take some strain off of their minds.

That is very kind of you, I mean that in all seriousness. You are a decent guy.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:04 pm

Birddog

Your intentions are indeed noble and I hope everyone here appreciates your honesty. I agree that what this profession needs most is a sense of community.

Having said that, I posted something in another thread on this same subject. If we have previously condemed the issue of paying for a job but are now willing to collect money for those who did, you must agree that a large portion of the proceeds would go to pay off crushing debt. Are we not now buying jobs for other pilots?

What kind of message does that send? I applaud your intentions, however we have all learned from the school of hard knocks.

sherlock · Post by **sherlock** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:04 pm

First Bird dog let me say cudos to you for floating the idea I personally know a jetsgone pilot with a family and all the trimings, fortunately for him he joined a while ago so he's not out quit so much cash, but he does now have to find a new job. If I had any bread to spare I'd happily kick in something, remember everyone we're all in this life together...
Second IMO a training bond is not necessarily a bad thing provided it is one of the "line of credit' kind, ie. you only pay what you owe if you quit/are 'fired for cause' before the 2-3 yr period of the bond are up. Several european carriers use this method and it works. However a cash up front bond is wrong, but that is sadly where the biz is these days.
Who do we blame for this? Ourselves thats who. We're the ones who caused this by jumping ship before the "entry-level" carriers had made back their training investment the first time a 'major" opportunity came by.
And finally to everyone here who says, (of the jets go pilots) 'they took a chance and earned what they got' I hope you never find yourself in a similar situation with your collegues saying the things about you that you are of them now.

Oh! one more thing... There's one less employer out there now too, fewer jobs to be had=less chances for everyone.

Legacy · Post by **Legacy** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:54 pm

Man hasn't ANYONE ever heard of a promisary note? it isn't new ya know

pika · Post by **pika** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:11 pm

Man hasn't ANYONE ever heard of a promisary note? it isn't new ya know

Why don't you fill us in?

Pie Lot · Post by **Pie Lot** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:47 pm

You know, we can beat the whole pay for your job thing to death, and none of us will ever agree. I have my own opinions and mixed feelings about the whole thing, but like I said, I will probably agree/disagree with 50% of you.

I also have a couple of good friends that took the gamble and went to JetsGo, and now have no job and 30K that they didn't really have in the first place to pay back. To those guys, and everyone else at JetsGo, you have my honest sympathy. Things will work out in the long run, you know what they say; "that which doesn't kill you only makes you stronger"; trust me, it's true. However, I know how you feel right now, and like I said, I'm sorry.

To all of you that are gleefully saying your "I told you so's", and secretly high fiving each other, just remember this sucks for all of us. There is 300 more people all trying for other jobs that until yesterday, we're available to the rest of us, right down to the new 200 hour wonder with $40K in student loans. When you were bitching about these guys "buying these jobs", and "killing the industry", did you turn down the new jobs, upgrades, and pay raises along with the new perks that came available to you because of the vacancies that these poor guys created. The same guys that are now on the hook for $30K, a mortgage and kids to feed, while you are enjoying the new job that belonged to a former JetsGo employee, and still have?

To the former people at SG, unfortunately I don't have a lot of cash to donate (you know how this industry is), but if you're passing through YQT on your job search or whatever reason, send me a PM and the beer is on me.

Pie Lot

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:41 pm

Birddog:

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:59 pm

Your long post (what are you prepared to do?), too long to quote but worth every word.

Pratt · Post by **Pratt** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:09 pm

peeelot,

There is an old saying , something about "let the buyer beware", if ML got an extra 25 million out of C3 for the sale of Royal, good for him. If that is the case C3 didn't check things out very thoroughly prior to the purchase and deserve what they got.

But that is all history now, we all know ML's reputation, and I am not a fan of his, nor am I defending him.

Getting back to the topic of the post, I will take a pass on contributing to IABD's fund.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:13 pm

Pie Lot

I don't think anyone is actually hi fiving the fact that Jetsgo imploded. I understand your point about people moving up to replace guys who moved to Jetsgo but in the big picture, it turns out that no one benefited from the existance of Jetsgo except Mike.

Pie Lot · Post by **Pie Lot** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:34 pm

JS:

Unfortunately I have heard some pretty shitty comments yesterday. A few I told you so's, and what did they expect etc. Even a, they got what they deserved. I really don't agree with that; no matter what; they did not deserve this!! We're all in this together. And you're right, in the end nobody really benefitted, but some guys riding around left seat in a BE1900, or a PC12 that I know personally, have benefitted directly from guys leaving for SG. These weren't the guys that were making comments by the way, but there were some going around. And if I heard a few up here in the North, you can be sure the same ones are surfacing all over the country. And you can be sure that there are 300+ guys flying around in jobs today, that would not be if JetsGo hadn't existed.

pika · Post by **pika** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:36 pm

When you were bitching about these guys "buying these jobs", and "killing the industry", did you turn down the new jobs, upgrades, and pay raises along with the new perks that came available to you because of the vacancies that these poor guys created. The same guys that are now on the hook for $30K, a mortgage and kids to feed, while you are enjoying the new job that belonged to a former JetsGo employee, and still have?

So the pilots that vacated their B1900 seats and forked over 30K to Jetsgo (which presumably allowed a Captain upgrade) did the industry a favour? Now the presently employed B1900 Captain owes the unemployed Jetsgo driver for giving up his/her seat? What new jobs and pay raises did Jetsgo create again?

JetsGo Pilot Fund

Re: JetsGo Pilot Fund

Re: JetsGo Pilot Fund

Get off the 'dog's back guys!