Multi Instructing

[Stevo226]

Well at long last (too long in my opinion), I've been given the opportunity to start instructing on the Seneca. After a search of the forums, I can't find any topics for "Tips for Multi Instructors". So, any advice for myself or other instructors out there just starting out with Multi and IFR instructing?

[Teeg]

i think that it goes without saying but ensure the student knows the procedures. what ive done is simulate (while in the aircraft) the procedures, slowflight, stalls, and especially engine failure scenarios.

i always try and empahsize to the student that its just another aircraft, albeit with different power settings. aittudes are exactly the same. so that, *if* they are good attitude pilots then *if* they know the procedures it should be a cake walk.

T

[Hedley]

*** edited ***

[FlaplessDork]

Good thorough pre-flight briefings so there is not question as to who will be doing what, where, why and how. Things can go south fairly quickly.

[Aviatard]

Would that be the same Seneca that had the gear up not too long ago?

In any case some suggestions:

- If you're going to do circuits, do them at the beginning of the lession. That way the student hasn't just spent an hour repeating "flaps up, gear up". Keep your hand over the gear lever while on the ground so the student can't activate it. If they do reach for it, you will not be able to react in time to prevent a gear up on the runway. Of course you'd better make sure that you don't activate the gear on the ground yourself.
- Never trust your student won't actually shut off the fuel or mags. If they're touching switches or controls to simulate moving them, check that the control is in the state you want afterward.
- If you're going to do the Vmc demo, use half rudder only. You can demonstrate the effects without getting down to Vmc.
- The engine shutdown has been discussed many times on this forum. You can decide for yourself whether this is sensible or not. If you do it, you'd better be in a place where you can get it on the ground easily on one engine.
- You're burning dollars at a high rate for the student. Try to sequence exercises so there's a minimum of wasted time in between. For example, the aircraft is already in the landing configuration during flight at reduced airspeed, so why not follow that up with an approach to stall in the landing configuration?
- Most twins don't have synchronized throttles throughout the lever travel, so if the student is in the habit of ramming the throttles forward, you're likely to get more thrust on on side than the other, which will have you moving toward the edge pretty quickly. They should be doing it anyway, but brief the student on this and encourage them to move the throttles smoothly.
- Encourage the student to sit in the aircraft and go over the drills on the ground. Better yet, if your school has a simulator, do all the exercises in that first before getting into the airplane.

Well there's probably more, but that's enough for the name calling and flame wars to begin.

Cheers.

[happyav8r]

Would that be the same Seneca that had the gear up not too long ago?

Could be either that one or the red Seneca at the blue school.

In the case of the latter, good luck training those guys...you`re going to need it.

[Stevo226]

Would that be the same Seneca that had the gear up not too long ago?

- If you're going to do the Vmc demo, use half rudder only. You can demonstrate the effects without getting down to Vmc.

- You're burning dollars at a high rate for the student. Try to sequence exercises so there's a minimum of wasted time in between. For example, the aircraft is already in the landing configuration during flight at reduced airspeed, so why not follow that up with an approach to stall in the landing configuration?

No your probably thinking of the other Twin in YXU that went belly up a while ago. Different school.

Can you explain this Vmc demo? I've heard of it before but have never been shown one or how to safely enter and exit one.

This stall business seems to carry a couple of opinions with it. Some people say you should only do approaches to stall, others say to just stall it. A simple stall becomes complicated when you start considering things like accelerating above Vmc before adding power, etc. And the flight test guide says you have to a stall in clean config and an approach to stall in landing config. So any opinions, tips? My CFI hasn't been in all week and i've been just doing IFR training so far. Thanks in advance!

[comspazz]

Check your PM

[Cat Driver]

Deleted.

[mcrit]

Can you explain this Vmc demo? I've heard of it before but have never been shown one or how to safely enter and exit one.

A Vmc demo is not required in Canada, and I'd avoid doing it just because it places you on the border of unknown territory (that being a spin). I've seen a Vmc demo done by a very experienced guy. He did not set full power on the good engine, and he did not let the speed get within 10kts of Vmc. If a fellow with a few thousand hours on heavy transport doesn't want to mess with Vmca that's gotta tell you something.

If you go on TC's website there is a flight instructor's guide for multi-engine pilots. The last time I checked (a few years ago) it was free to download and had some good stuff in it. Kershner's Advanced Pilot's Manual is also a good read.

[Hedley]

*** edited ***

[just curious]

Restrictions to training practices usually stem from accidents.

About 20 years ago, a ride candidate became the first pilot to successfully spin a KingAir... during the ride. The examiner in question liked to see a recovery not at the first indication of a stall, but the second. Horn, light, buffet, pilot screaming, dust coming up off the floorboards... any two.

KAJ went over one way, then the other during the recovery, engine flamed out, generally a bad day at the office. They recovered very low from a 10000 foot entry, and landed at Peterborough. Wings were curled up a few feet.

So, stalls during rides we brief a recovery at first indication.

I don't have any first hand knowledge of low-level engine out disasters, but again during rides, nothing below 400. At least then they have a 100 foot margin of error above circling protection.

The Twin Otter is unusual in that it can lift off the ground readily below VMC. And in STOL operations, it is the norm. The way I demonstrate it in the SIM is to have the pilot lift off the runway the second they can pull it off the ground. Then fail the left engine. In the time it takes them to say "Oh, Sh**!" The aircraft is inverted 110 degrees off course, a foot above the runway. Then we try again using various combination's of autofeather working and not, and power on the good engine less than max. At VMC, and less than max power with full rudder, the pilot slowly adds power to max then raises the nose to less than VMC. Religiously, the aircraft rolls over.

I'll also get an engine shut down in the sim, and have the pilots fly it around at Vyse, and do turns both into and away from the live engine.

In the real aircraft, I tend to be a lot more conservative.

JC

[Tim]

The multi engine instructors manual has advice for instructors on the various exercises, just like the FIG does for PPL/CPL exercises.

At my school we demo 'Vmc', but only using half rudder instead of full rudder, so essentially we're just allowing it to yaw/roll at about Vmc + 30kts, to give an idea of what the onset of Vmc looks like. Although to be honest I wouldn't miss it if it was taken out of the syllabus.

[Aviatard]

Can you explain this Vmc demo? I've heard of it before but have never been shown one or how to safely enter and exit one.

This stall business seems to carry a couple of opinions with it. Some people say you should only do approaches to stall, others say to just stall it. A simple stall becomes complicated when you start considering things like accelerating above Vmc before adding power, etc. And the flight test guide says you have to a stall in clean config and an approach to stall in landing config. So any opinions, tips? My CFI hasn't been in all week and i've been just doing IFR training so far. Thanks in advance!

As for the Vmc demo, it's nothing to mess around with. Get training from someone who knows what they're doing. Cat Driver has good advice, not just for the Vmc thing, but all of your training.

As for the stalls, you are required to do an approach to stall in the landing configuration, with recovery at the first indication of stall (usually stall horn or buffet), and a full stall. So you have to teach both kinds.

[Aviatard]

No your probably thinking of the other Twin in YXU that went belly up a while ago. Different school.

I intended to remark on this. What happened there was the student and instructor had been in the practice area doing an hour of engine out drills. Mixture, props, power, flaps, gear...

So at the end of the flight they decided to do a few circuits. On the touch and go, the student does flaps, gear. They took out a runway light and punctured the wing. If I remember correctly, there was a fuel leak. Luckily there was no fire.

That's why I suggested you do the circuits first on your flights, if you're going to combine them with other lessons. Students will do the dumbest things when you least expect it.

[Adam Oke]

My personal opinion would be to teach new concepts in singles first. If the student doesn't know how to fly with a blue handle, take them up in a constant speed single first. If they do not know use a gear lever (not to be confused with the flap lever ) Take them for a rip in a single retractable. Do no let them turn the props on a multi until they know how to deal with constant speed, retractable gear, and multi procedures cold! There is no logic in learning new concepts and procedures at $400+ per hour when most of this can be taught on singles and/or on the ground.

Learn on the ground, practice what you learn in the air.

[Tim]

both of those suggestions sounds over the top IMO. whether the student forgets the gear or not, it should not slip by the instructor, at either the start or the end of the flight (since when does the gear NOT come down at the end of a flight?)

in terms of doing things first on a single engine a/c with constant speed prop and RG, what difference does the extra engine make now? the complex part isn't the second engine, grabbing two levers instead of 1 shouldn't be an issue for the vast majority of students.

i do wholeheartedly agree with know the procedures cold though, and i dont hesitate to cancel a student who isn't mentally prepared.

[Aviatard]

both of those suggestions sounds over the top IMO. whether the student forgets the gear or not, it should not slip by the instructor, at either the start or the end of the flight (since when does the gear NOT come down at the end of a flight?)

I wasn't referring to forgetting to lower the gear. What happened was the student raised the gear on the runway on the go. Either the squat switch failed, or they were too light and the gear folded up. Agreed that the instructor shouldn't forget to lower the gear, but my point is that once the student begins reaching for the gear handle, you'd be hard pressed to have time to see and react in time to stop him from raising it.

[Stevo226]

No your probably thinking of the other Twin in YXU that went belly up a while ago. Different school.

I intended to remark on this. What happened there was the student and instructor had been in the practice area doing an hour of engine out drills. Mixture, props, power, flaps, gear...

So at the end of the flight they decided to do a few circuits. On the touch and go, the student does flaps, gear. They took out a runway light and punctured the wing. If I remember correctly, there was a fuel leak. Luckily there was no fire.

That's why I suggested you do the circuits first on your flights, if you're going to combine them with other lessons. Students will do the dumbest things when you least expect it.

I was instructing at that school at the time and in fact I was holding short ready to go when the seneca came down for a touch and go. so i saw the whole thing first hand, Wild Stuff!
Anyway, great advice, I can see how easy it would be to not catch the student in time. They were too light on the wheels and the instructor told me afterward it was like slow motion: the gear started coming up and the nose slooooowly started falling until BANG! And what's worse, the door jammed from the impact and the left wing struck the light and punctured the fuel tank. there were no injuries

[FlaplessDork]

Agreed that the instructor shouldn't forget to lower the gear, but my point is that once the student begins reaching for the gear handle, you'd be hard pressed to have time to see and react in time to stop him from raising it.

A quick slap to the hand or punch to the face would prevent this from happening.

[Aviatard]

A quick slap to the hand or punch to the face would prevent this from happening.

Add "again" to that sentence.

[CanadianEh]

Which school are you instructing at stevo?

[5x5]

Stevo - I see in the Maintenance board you are also just now becoming PRM. My advice is to be very careful right about now.

You're getting what might seem like some great opportunities to further your career, but beware the combination. Both new jobs are going to require a lot of focus and mental energy to manage. And both make different kinds of demands on your time. The PRM gig has things cropping up throughout the day as snags come up. And they need to be addressed right now - not necessarily when you get done with the next student. And your students will quickly become frustrated with waiting as you handle the maintenance issues.

Also, as a newby to both positions, are you going to be able to effectively switch back and forth between the two and not forget things or just muddle through? And is muddling through what you really want?

I 'm not suggesting that you personally can't handle it( I don't have a clue who you are), just that it's a difficult combination for anyone to handle. I've seen very experienced folks struggle with the PRM stuff as it requires a different kind of mindset than instructing.

So tread carefully, the combination may not be the blessing you think it is.

[FlaplessDork]

Stevo - I see in the Maintenance board you are also just now becoming PRM. My advice is to be very careful right about now.

Sure fire way of dying young. To do both positions properly without skimping on anything I had to work 7 days a week and 14 hours a day. I was quite healthy beforehand, but after a year of instructing and PRM I had high blood pressure. Soon as I quit the PRM job my blood pressure went back to normal.

[happyav8r]

So, um, how's the multi instructing going?