accepting low wages

[planeguy]

The industry has somehow allowed itself to lower it's standards as to how much AMEs and AME apprentices are worth. I don't think that boycotting low wages is practical or realistic because there will always be some techs out there who realize that accepting burger king pay will allow them to get their foot in the door and later move on to bigger and better. I myself did that (well, maybe harvey's, rather than burger king) and it gave me some depth on my resume as well as some aircraft maintenance knowledge. Without that, I wouldn't be the whatever tech that I have gotten to today.

Unfortunately, there aren't enough companies in Canada willing to pay half-decently to a beginner, so anyone who wants to work and be around airplanes will take the prop shaft up the bum.

I don't see a solution for it other than for TC to implement some type of Morality chapter to CARs which would include pay wages ( ). Until then, I see newbies accepting sh!t pay as it's becoming the way of the wolf in aircraft maintenance. I don't agree, but I do see it becoming normal.

[chubbee]

When you see organisations like CARAC with the financial support of HRDC working to bring in foreign aircraft maintainers and get them accredited toot suite so as to keep the pay rates right where they are for now and for a long time to come, it is pretty damn discouraging.
CARAC is slutting for the corporate interests, facilitating the import of foreign workers into a very depressed aviation labour market.
Why invest in an apprentice when you can import someone with a license for the same price?

[Pat Richard]

I've seen exactly that happen at YVR. Engineers from asia willing to work for apprentice wages. Don't know what the hell is the matter with those people, accepting the shit pay like they do, but it's killing the rest of us trying to steer away from the gutter.
I can understand that they are probably doing better here than at home, but its no excuse to torpedo the existing(poor as is)pay scale with offer's of "will work for minimal wages". The more I thought about that, the more pissed off I've become. I mean f*%#k, what the hell is wrong with people, that with 20 yrs experience, they figure its acceptable to offer themselves out for minimal pay. How do you compete with that? Why would I want to... f*@#ked up, is all I can say.

[chubbee]

Didn't mean to say CARAC was the other acronym CAMC, who is braggin about making apprentices a piece of nostalgia.

Apologies to CARAC,

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

I was thinking reading the first post that you meant CAMC.
CAMC = Cancer to Aircraft Maintenance Careers

[griefrapids]

Where you live has a big part to play as well, in BC and Alberta the cost of living is a little higher so instead of minimum wage like in MB or SK you are going to get $10/hr which is still below what you can survive on in those provinces, same with Ont. for that matter. Even in NWT they pay pretty high but the cost of living is double of any other province plus you are two km from being in the middle of no where with 6 months of dark. I'm in MB and it's almost like you need to be either living at home in your mothers basement or sleeping in the back of your 1984 VW. But I'm just venting , life isn't all bad because most of the people you work with have been through it too it just the people that are hiring have forgotten where they came from.

[sherlock]

Folks this issue of low pay is not just limited to maintainence or aviation for that matter. Many sectors of the economy are being beset by imigrant labour who are willing to work for minimum wage bringing down the market for everyone. The problem is that these people tend to club together and get a one bedroom apt. for several people, then work at their jobs and send most of their pay home to their families. They do this because even at minimum wage they can do so much better here then at home in their profession. My other issue with this is that because they send most of their pay home (to support their families which I don't argue with) they make little or no contribution to the economy of this country, they are in effect parasites.
As one of the 'have' countries we do have a moral obligation to the "have not' countries of the world but it should not be at the expence of our own citizens.
ok I've finished my sermon for today... what does everyone else think?

[Pat Richard]

That pretty well describes what I've witnessed over the years, and at the the risk of being politically incorrect(which I could care less)I don't think these are the type of immigrants Canada needs. I do have an issue with them sending home the lions share of their wages, and spending minimally here. The only benefit is to the employer for whom they work, providing very cheap labor. The rest of the economy,besides basi food/shelter, hardly benefits. Not to mention what it does to rest of us trying to get realistic wages.
Bad news, plain and simple.

[planeguy]

i don't think one can blame a parasite for living on a rhino's back. I do think that you can blame a rhino for accomodating the parasite. This issue isn't with the people accepting low wages, it's with the employers who are willing to accomodate. Wherever you go in the world, there'll always be a higher bidder, meaning more beneficial to the seller (employers). It's human nature to take the most advantageous route to gaining prosperity, whether it be the employee or the employer. I don't think that it's immigrants that are causing this issue, it's more like the employers who are allowing it to happen, and the so-called 'parasites' just doing their job. If anyone has to change, it must be the employers. And either way, immigration will enjoy Canada, high pay, or low pay.

[110]

Hi, Planeguy,
Here are some questions of mine to you:

1.if you were employer, will you accept the "parasite"s' experience or endorsement trianing form other countries? If you say NO, may I know the reason?

2.do you know the "parasites" you mentioned kept waiting for long time to have chance to work at this low rate ? before that, they have to do anything they could do at general labour market.

3.Do you know that? when the "parasites" just came to Canada, the employer tell them they don't have license, when they get license, they are told they don't have F**K "local experience",even some of them know much better than some local people. do you know? one full time employer(Supervisor level) at a so-call "top 10" MRO in North Amercia said "all aircraft MPD document in the World are consolidated". the feeling to me is terrible !!!

I am talking the true.

i don't think one can blame a parasite for living on a rhino's back. I do think that you can blame a rhino for accomodating the parasite. This issue isn't with the people accepting low wages, it's with the employers who are willing to accomodate. Wherever you go in the world, there'll always be a higher bidder, meaning more beneficial to the seller (employers). It's human nature to take the most advantageous route to gaining prosperity, whether it be the employee or the employer. I don't think that it's immigrants that are causing this issue, it's more like the employers who are allowing it to happen, and the so-called 'parasites' just doing their job. If anyone has to change, it must be the employers. And either way, immigration will enjoy Canada, high pay, or low pay.

[planeguy]

In my personal opinion, having a license shouldn't mean as much as it does in this country. I believe many guys don't have it yesterday, are treated like crap, then get it tomorrow, and are treated like kings. How much experience can be acquired in 3 days? A lot, but not enough for a huge status change. Maybe if the Transport Canada system was more intense, then a license would have more depth.

In regards to your question, I would hire the 'parasite's' experience and / or endorsement training from other countries. Canada is too stuck to this idea that if you didn't do it in Canada or the US, it's not worth anything. This goes from aircraft maintenance, physicians, automotive technicians, architects, whatever.

I myself (as a piece of junk apprentice in Canada) had to work in general labour until I got most of my irrelevant log book filled out and finally got some undeserved respect. Most of the guys that I met who have worked overseas have higher standards, more experience, and more respect for their co-workers than guys trained and working in Canada. Most of them, especially from Asia and Europe deserve more pay than a large percentage of guys here in Canada. As an apprentice, being told that you know nothing here in Canada, you get to observe the different attitudes and knowledge levels of engineers on a global scale.

Unfortunately, pay scale in Canada usually doesn't match worth or experience level regardless of if you're working for McDonald's or the government. When I use the word 'parasite', I'm referencing this term used earlier. What we don't realize is that if this 'so-called' parasite were to leave Canada's back today, Canada wouldn't be able to support itself. But that's besides the point.

In regards to Sherlock's and Pat Richard's posts, what you guys don't realize is that most people who aren't from this sector of the world are used to living together in large groups. From the poorest families to families living in Kingdoms, people are used to living in large numbers. And how can you blame truly qualified individuals who aren't worth anything in Canada for being as economical as possible. To be allowed to migrate to Canada and get a job, work everyday and do what you please with your money is your agreement with your employer. There is no morality behind doing what you want with your money, since it is 'yours'. The employee benefits from being beneficial to the employer, therefore Canada is benefitting. Anyone who spends anything on food, shelter, and transportation in Canada from earned, taxable money, and is not unnecessarily suckling on welfare, is contributing to the country. What more can you ask?

[sherlock]

I feel bad now for using the term parasite in my earlier post. I agree thast they have every right to come here and to work (if posible) in their chosen profession, however the standard of workmanship considered acceptable in some countries just isin't up to snuff in this country, that being said many other notions standards are far higher than ours so that knife cuts both ways.
I speak from my personal experiance with some of these 'imports' from both sides of the coin., and even the ones from the + side needed to be brought up to speed on codes and practices.

So far as their living in large groups, I for one am very well aware that this is normal for some, however mt issue is with their over crowding the apartments/houses in which they are living which leads to lower ROIs for the landlords which leads to less investment in new housing (in a small part), and also added expences as these large groups over stress the utilities and structure, makinjg it harder to rent again without major renovation when that group moves on.

To clarify I'm not against anybody coming here to work, I am against them coming here and offering their services for less than the going market rate.

[Vickers vanguard]

.......I can't believe all the crap written about immigrants ! all of you there are Fuc#@!ing immigrants unless you're a native !!!
As for the assumption that every freaking immigrant is from a war torn poor country.....and work for min wage in this country....well, I'm an immigrant and here's my credentials......

-FAA flight Dispatcher
-A&P (Spartan, US), now it's an IA
-CAA A&C licence (British)
-TC AME 'E'
-TC CPL/ME/IR, Inst class 4

......and I make 27$ per hour......and it's on the rise !
My last assignment was for a major airline in the persian gulf making at least twice my current income.....tax free misters !!
So, the story that says that every immigrant who came to Canada, came for economical reason is simply an oldwive thale !!
Talking about immigrants.......I don't know if you're aware of the large number of Canadians working overseas in the Aviation industry.
By the way, I was one of the first to blast that guy who wanted to work for min wage in order to get his AME M2 licence. However, A good nice True Canadian replied on this forum and proudly explained how he accepted a min wage Apprentice position to advance his career......the posting is still there to read...

.....for all the ignorants out there, do some research and check how many ten of thousand of foreign students comme every year to this country and fork out an average of 20,000 $ for university/college per year...........
contribution to the economy ???......you bet !!!!!

[Pat Richard]

all of you there are Fuc#@!ing immigrants unless you're a native !!!

Hmm... lemme see, born here, raised/educated here, employed here, PAY TAXES HERE. That makes me, and anyone else with the same history, a fu#cking native, you ignorant loudmouth fu@k, understand?

me laughing at the fact that you brag about making 27 a/hr, with the credentials you claim to have. What's the kicker to crack 30 a/hr? Need some more titles? More courses' perhaps? Most every blue collar journeyman tradesman is making as much or more than you, bigshot, or did you miss that bit of info 'cause you were too busy thumping your chest for being blessed with the honor to maintain the airworthiness of aircraft, for the price of a good plumber?




Piss off chump ,

Pat



[/u]

[Vickers vanguard]

PAt, know what ? that is the reaction I wanted to see...because that how I felt when other punks started that shit about immigrants.......work for min wage, live in groups,send money abroad etc etc....

So here's it is again........ I know it hits right where I wanted :
.....You are all Immigrants.......10 years ago or 100 years ago when your parents landed here !
For all of you out there who think you can just fu$@&ing bash about immigrants when you want !!! voila !!!
As for the pay, I said it before......I could make double that if I wanted......somewhere else !!
The plumber makes more than AME ? ha ha ha ....very true my friend !! that is the state of this fu*&%ing industry in Canada.
But hey ! I'm not complaining about the pay ! I have an alternative if I wish to !
Finally, since none of you reacted to the previous posts full of bullshits about what you call IMPORTS....then screw you !!!
And I'm being nice here...........how would you react if somebody would call you PARASITE and IMPORT ????

[planeguy]

Actually, that is a good point!! Maybe people aren't coming here for the money and to rob Canada. When you think about it, most countries who have a larger and even more competitive airline or aviation companies do pay a lot more than anywhere in Canada. For example!: I obtained my A&P license and many jobs with major carriers in the US start A&P guys at a higher rate than AME's with 10 years experience. In the middle east, for example at Emirates, and Saudi Airlines, and all across Europe, the pay is much higher than here in Canada.

So that raises the question; why would people come to Canada to make less when it's easier to get into other countries where co-worker respect is obviously a lot more than here? Canada is a great country, but not for aviation. Personally if and when I become attrative and obtain access to another country, I'd sortie le Canada in an attempt to gain big aircraft experience with higher and more respectable pay elsewhere.

It isn't like people are coming into this country to be educated and work in aviation on a daily or even monthly basis. This country, attitude-wise, pay-wise, future-wise and economically is one of the poorest aviation countries in the real world. It probably has one of the lowest migration rates as far as aviation enthusiasts entering the country looking for a future in aviation. I went and obtained my A&P because I am serious about aviation beyond the small, and obviously insecure world of most of Canada.

People aren't coming here for pay, people are coming here because of living conditions as well as the fact that Canada is the McDonald's of global aviation. "We pay a little, but at least you'll have something on your resume."

The so-called 'visible majority' of Canada are primarily holding most of the management positions in aviation. So until their attitudes change about pay wages for beginners both domestic workers and migrators, I don't think anybody in that category has a right to point fingers at immigrants. But that's just me.

[Pat Richard]

Vickers - your point about when my parents came here, and were immigrants...so what? I was BORN here, so it make's no sense when you go calling me, and the rest like me, fuc#@ng immigrants.
As for the immigrant issue, the problem I have is when(I've SEEN this) they come here, and proceed to work for fuc@ all as engineers. Most of the points sherlock brings are also reality, whether they're politically correct, or not
I can't comment about the structural/utlities/renovation/lack of investment point, as I've never heard that mentioned before.
But as to them living 12 to a half duplex, that's not bullshit. I lived in areas where that is common. How else can they afford to work as an AME for 20 a/hr, or offer themselves out for "minimum wage"? This does absolutly nothing to improve our situation as AME's.
I personally would'nt have used the descriptive terms sherlock did, but I generally understand where he's coming from , as it's frustrating to see this happen.
Also, like PG asks, if you were doing so well elsewhere, why come here to aviation McDonald land, and make half of what you were?

[Vickers vanguard]

planeguy.....pat, it's very hard to defend yourself and not alienate the rest. I wanted you to feel what I felt and I guess the point was made and you understood it. If you go on the political forum and read some of my postings, you'll see that I'm very critical of the actions and politics of my own siblings when I believe they are unethical.....I have a moral obligation to do so and I expect the rest to do the same.
Planeguy, thanks for clarifying the issue of why some people will come to Canada, it's not always for the money...not at all for some..like me for example.
I was with Gulf Air for almost 10 years with an income that was more than double my current income ...tax free ! I Was endorsed on 3 types and had ACA on 2 of the company A/Cs (A330/A340 & L1011). Back in the late 90s, we got a contract from Air Transat to conduct 'D' checks on 3 of their L1011 plus 2 other A/Cs they bought from us which were ex- Air Lanka. 2 of these L1011 needed some serious structural repairs on the rear pressure bulkhead to address some corrosion issues and to comply with an AD. Skyservice also sent us 2 of their airplanes for 'C' checks, and A320 & A330-300. I personally released 3 A/Cs out of those 5 canadians registred airplanes..with TC blessing !!!!.Now fast forward to 2000, I just landed in Canada as a new immigrant and here I was now, looking for work. Guess what ? according to some employers (Air Transat for example), I wasn't good enough for them !!! but wait ! My signature was all over the place in some of their airplanes' logbook !!!
I didn't have Canadian Experience they said !!! what a joke..a big masquerade !!!!! I simply came back to the Gulf and stayed there for another year before coming back to Canada in 2001 to settle for good. The reasons were numerous but mainly it was for family reasons, when you have kids, you look for the long term results.
After a couple of months doing contract work, I decided to go back to school for an Avionics course, the timing was good since 3 months later it was sept 11 and the aviation industry almost collapsed.
I could have gone to work for an OEM and made more money, I actually have a friend with the same backgroung who now works in The QA department at Bombardier in Montreal. But I opted otherwise because I needed the 12 months experience in Avionics to get my AME 'E' licence..........so when you say a plumber makes more than I, you're right and everybody should be concerned by this fact because I know of a lot of people who make way less than I and are Licenced !!!!

I'm not a proponent of the: " do not talk about it...it's taboo,it's not politically correct" but I can't stand it when you have people talking out of their ass, and putting everybody in the same basket when they have seen nothing of this world.....are all Canadians the same ? of course not, I have met incredible people and crapy ones......it's the same for other cultures too.
One thing very important to remember here, A lot of people in this country don't understand yet that immigrants are here because there is a need for people to sustain this economy ......there is not enough people to pay taxes in order to sustain programs like healthcare and pensions. Immigrantion isn't because of the goodwill of the goverment to help others or for some other humanitarian reasons(except for the refugee category which is a minority)........it's a business case...simple as that my friends !!!
..........my regards to all..............

[planeguy]

i enjoy that point about signing out Canadian registered aircraft VV. It's similar to my previous post regarding physicians, aircraft maintenance, architects and whoever. It's kind of ironic that Air Transat wouldn't recognize your qualifications due to the fact that they would have to get approval from Transport Canada to have Gulf Air perform these checks. Gulf Air, and therefore the UAE would have to have agreements with TC in order for Transat to have these checks approved which obviously they do. For Transat to accept the inspection as approved but not the inspector is a key example of some of the ignorance and bliss which exists in this country. With the status of ACA on the L10 and 330 within Air Transat, along with a seperate E, anybody's payscale would be higher than the majority within that company and most of Canada. So accepting or being offered 27/hr doesn't necessarily show an AMEs worth in this country. Low pay is becoming a norm, and is almost preceding the importance of experience and skill for many employers. It's starting to seem as if companies up here have no appreciation towards the workers, but do expect the workers to have appreciation for the companies by accepting lower than deserved pay.

[Vickers vanguard]

hey planeguy ! you wanna see some pictures ?
go to this site : www.gamco.ae
when the initial page loads, you click on : "services ", you'll then see a picture of an L1011 ....hit the picture and check the panoramic view .
take also some time to visit the rest of the site .....good browsing.

note: GAMCO is a subsidary of Gulf Air, like Air canada technical services. I was transfered to Gamco in the late 90s.......from Gulf air.....same pay, same benefits.....

I have tons of pictures from there and As soon as I have the time, I'll scan them and post them on this site....

[Pat Richard]

I don't want keep addng to this, but what the hell.
If anyone comes here, and proceeds to fuc# with an established field negativly, in terms of wages, I only wish they go back back to wherever the hell they came from. I don't need, nor do I want to see an influx of people coming to Canada with the mindset of selling themselves as cheap labor for the aviation industry. I don't give a shit how much better it is for them, by doing that, than where they came from.
This is not to stereotype all immigrants. Many "natives" are just as willing to whore themselves out also. I wish they'd disappear also.
Point is, the industry in Canada, is messed up enough as is, and does'nt need encouragment in that direction from new arrivals, regardless of where they originated.

enough of this crap, Im going back to the pub to continue watching som female friends of mine makeout with the birthday girl.(not kidding)

Cheers',literally,

[gli77]

North Americans have become fat, dumb and lazy. I have traveled and worked in many places of the world and I am always amazed at our society when I return home.

VV makes the point that we are all immigrants unless we are native. Whether you agree or not it can be said that North America was built by immigrants. For example the Great Canadian Railway made huge use of Chinese immigrant manpower. The problem we are faced with today is that society is too far removed from the ethics of our ancestors. For example a person who would have memories of the great depression would be at least 80 years old. During the early 1900’s there were several Irish immigrants flooding the ports of New York and Canada to get away from the famines in Ireland. They too lived with large numbers in one apartment. Going from 1950 back the commonality of people is that they understood what a hard life was, and were working towards a good life.

VV has said that when he worked in the Gulf he made twice what he made in Canada and it was tax free. Good for him, wise decision. So as an example consider an Asian immigrant to Canada. We can make him Chinese. In China today the average AME pay scale would be about $5 / hour for an aviation job. Housing quarters would be small, living expenses moderate, and freedoms minimal. If a flight is delayed for a maintenance reason then you face the possibility of being fined. Duty times don’t exist, and worker safety is not a consideration. This Chinese AME comes across an opportunity to immigrate to Canada. So he and his family pack up and head for Vancouver.

Once in Vancouver he applies for work in the aircraft maintenance field. He has been working for 20 years in china and has 737 and A320 courses among others. He gets a job at company X where they tell him he will make $20/hour( as this was stated to be a low wage in one of the posts), with benefits. He and his family move into a Chinese area, where rents are a bit lower than other places. For our example say there are seven members of the family, with two members working, two going to school and three staying home. Life for these people is better than what they left behind, and things look great. The same way things looked to my grandparents after they lived through the depression and made it through World War Two.

The other side of that coin is the Canadian guy, two generations removed from any family member who could correlate with the lifestyle of our Chinese example. For those of you who have worked in a Bombardier factory how many times have you seen guys give minimal work efforts for the first 40 hours. Expecting there to be overtime available at time and a half or double time because the line is behind. Or the story I have heard so many times is the avionics guy at Air Canada who needs to get to a component behind a panel. But hold on, the removal of a panel is not avionics work. Therefore a mechanic has to come over and remove the panel. The whole process could take an hour, and the avionics guy still hasn’t got to his actual job yet, all because he can’t turn some screws counter clockwise.

I have followed the United Airlines story in the States, and their depths into bankruptcy protection. The last I read United Airlines was able to cut THREE BILLION dollars of waste out of their budgets. An airline that can cut THREE BILLION dollars in waste does not deserve bankruptcy protection they deserve bankruptcy.

Take for example the average bank account in the USA is about $200. The average bank account in Japan is $120 000. The average person in the US is not poor, so that is not the reason why they only have $200. The reason is that they spend what they earn to buy more and more things. Of course those things they are buying are more and more being made in China, etc. so the money is gone. As time has gone by the stats show that the North American workforce productivity has gone down. When hard times hit it is destruction for a lot of people because they have lead gluttonous lifestyles. A person who lived through the depression would not be so easily trapped in that situation.

The point of my above examples is that the aviation immigrant impact discussion is a very small point of the international big picture. North Americans have become lazy and unproductive. Unions are stronger than ever, forcing up the cost of doing business. Suddenly things like low cost airlines, and out sourcing show themselves and people are angry at the supposed unfairness, not taking into account the freeloading that has gone on.

Immigration has always been a part of North Americas history. People who have settled here have always been biased against those that arrive after them. The trouble today is that the developing world has got their act together and are seizing on our shortcomings. A few immigrants may accept work at a lower than average pay scale, but they are also accepting these lower wages without a Canadian AME but with some good experience behind them. In other words they are in the apprentice category. Over time they will seek higher wages, much like the rest of us. So if your job is not providing you with your wants, it is not the fault of an immigrant aircraft mechanic. Life is tough and it is not fair. To get ahead you have to work smart and work hard. More and more the only people that realize this are people from the developing world. Of course aviation in Canada has quite a few troubles. But immigrant aircraft mechanics are a tiny part of those troubles.

Away from the immigrant issue, it is not a valid comparison to compare aviation in Canada to other parts of the world in terms of wages. Canadian aviation encompasses a huge general aviation division, and a small corporate and airline presence. In Asia, Europe, and the mid East it is the opposite. In the USA both areas are quite large. Being that Canada has such a large general aviation sector it only follows that wages should be lower than compared to Japan or Switzerland. A guy signing off a Navajo should be making less than a guy signing out an A330. There are a lot more Navajo’s flying in Canada than A330’s. Therefore the average of wages will be lower. Of course aviation in Canada has quite a few troubles. But immigrant aircraft mechanics are a tiny part of those troubles.

The cost of living in Canada is also a lot lower than most parts of the world. A house, car and gas is a fraction of the cost as to what it is in Europe, and some parts of Asia. When you take everything into account a guy working on an A320 in Toronto is making about the same as a guy working on an A320 in Stockholm. There may be some +/- but overall the rates would be similar, far more similar than a guy working in Bangladesh.

[J.P.WISER]

Low wages yes but we have not resorted to pimpin ourselves out for 30 large yet !!! But that time will come for maint too!!!

[Pat Richard]

Have to agree, that is where maintenance is headed.
It's not that uncommon thesedays to hear of an apprentice working for free just to get some experience. More common is AME's paying for their endorsement courses'. What's the difference between that or paying for a PPC?
The groundwork, unfortunatly, has been laid.


Pat

[Vickers vanguard]

talking about paying for stuff !!!
Canada and the Mighty US are the ONLY countries on this bloody planet where AMEs have to buy their own tools to work for Airplanes.
As a matter of Fact, the Canadian airforce supply its technicians with tools !! voila !!!
So far, I got 3 type course and never had to pay a penny for that !! ...of course it was done overseas !!